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Bill: International persuasion is not treason
Details
Submitted by[?]: Cooperative Commonwealth Federation
Status[?]: passed
Votes: This bill is a resolution. It requires more yes votes than no votes. This bill will not pass any sooner than the deadline.
Voting deadline: September 2089
Description[?]:
| Parliament affirms that any party may lobby internationally for its goals, and that non-violent persuasion does not constitute "treason." |
Proposals
Debate
These messages have been posted to debate on this bill:
| Date | 05:13:47, July 31, 2005 CET | From | Cooperative Commonwealth Federation | To | Debating the International persuasion is not treason |
| Message | For the record, here is the debate on the ASP bill entitled "Traitorous action by the Green Advantage Party." Bill: Traitorous action by the Green Advantage Party. Details Submitted by[?]: Adam Smith Party Status[?]: debate Votes: this is a normal bill, requiring more yes than no votes to pass. Description[?]: While we can accept that the GA is opposed to our nation having any form of defence other than overgrown jungle, it is not acceptable that a group charged with the representation of the people of the Independent Republic of Lodamun should publically disclose defence information of a sensitive nature. Nor is it acceptable that they should defame other members of our parliament in an international context. This is a motion to censure the Green advantage party and to officialy bar them from holding executive office during this and the next parliamentary term. Evidence of betrayal of the Independent Nation of Lodamun: http://www.takeforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1459&mforum=particracy Proposals Debate These messages have been posted to debate on this bill: Date 20:29:44, July 30, 2005 CET From Green Advantage To Debating the Traitorous action by the Green Advantage Party. Message And so the totalitarianism of the Adam Smith Party becomes clear. When opposed, it moves to censure its opponents. When the militaristic policy of the ASP is revealed to the international community, it tries to cover up information. Is it now a crime to reveal open public parliamentary debates to others? Are our laws to be a secret, passed in a star chamber of brainwashed Randroids? Is it defamation to tell the truth, that Lodamun has declared openly its intention to reserve the right to build weapons of mass destruction? The Greens have no intention of serving in any cabinet which includes parties dedicated to environmental destruction and militarism. By all means pass this bill. We shall not serve in your cabinet under any circumstances anyway, so it does us no harm. Already, protesters from other members of the International Greens are converging on Port Andalay to raise their voices against chemical weapons. No doubt the ASP totalitarians will accuse us of treason for this as well. Date 20:52:04, July 30, 2005 CET From Adam Smith Party To Debating the Traitorous action by the Green Advantage Party. Message There is no totalitarianism whatsoever in our acxtions. You have taken it upon yourself to place call an international community to oppose the democratically elected will of the people of Lodamun. This indicates clearly that you have no respect for the principles of democracy. As such we have tabled a motion to censure your party on this basis. If you do not respect the will of the people you can not be trusted or requested to represent them as a member of the executive. No totalitarianism is involved at all. The parliament will decide your fate, based on their interpretation of your actions and their understanding of why they were elected to serve by our people. Attempting to use external pressure to divert the political course in a nation is not acceptable to us. We are not, and never will be a nation that attempts to define how others should govern. As such we expect otheres not to attempt to define how we should govern. It is a notion that belongs to the citizens, it does not belong to an ideological pressure group that couldn't care less about the true protection of the ecosystem so long as they can be seen to be trying to upset the economy in favour of some misguided authoritarian principle that the people must obey them. Date 20:53:58, July 30, 2005 CET From Adam Smith Party To Debating the Traitorous action by the Green Advantage Party. Message The protestors in Pot Andalay are very welcome, they are requested to obey oour nations laws with respect to damage to property and to respect of other individuals. Any attempts to use violence or intimidation will be strictly dealt with and will be subject to our nations jurisdiction. Remember you are guests here. You are welcome as long as you are respectful. Date 20:54:57, July 30, 2005 CET From Adam Smith Party To Debating the Traitorous action by the Green Advantage Party. Message (I hate my Keyboard and this system that does not alow you to edit - Read Port Andalay for Pot Andalay please) Date 20:57:55, July 30, 2005 CET From Green Advantage To Debating the Traitorous action by the Green Advantage Party. Message some protesters will avail themselves of their democratic right to smoke Pot Andalay of course. Date 21:09:14, July 30, 2005 CET From Tuesday Is Coming To Debating the Traitorous action by the Green Advantage Party. Message We condemn the Green Advantage attempt to subvert and harm our people. "Please, if you care for peace and the environment, contact the Lodamun government and do all you can to convince them to stop this insane march towards disaster." You invite other entities to use whatever means available to coerce us to your point of view. This is outright treason. "No state should possess chemical weapons, and we hope sane governments will express this sentiment to Lodamun." Again, your point of view, but one that will only happen if the Lodamun People agree to it. No amount of cowardly and authoritarian tactics from you or other nations will convince us to work against the freedom, intent, and well being of our people. "The Lodamun cabal is seeking allies as we speak. " We seek partners in a non-aggression pact. Hardly an aggressive alliance. Date 21:23:05, July 30, 2005 CET From Adam Smith Party To Debating the Traitorous action by the Green Advantage Party. They are welcome to smoke Pot Andalay if they want to. Our laws are very liberal in this and most respects. Date 22:04:22, July 30, 2005 CET From Adam Smith Party To Debating the Traitorous action by the Green Advantage Party. Message If the green Advantage obtain more than 45 seats this action will be withdrawn. Date 22:27:00, July 30, 2005 CET From Adam Smith Party To Debating the Traitorous action by the Green Advantage Party. Message ((I am a little more generous then RogueAmazonia)) Date 22:31:56, July 30, 2005 CET From Tuesday Is Coming To Debating the Traitorous action by the Green Advantage Party. Message I disagree with that proposal. Their treasonous action must have judgement passed on it. Perhaps the bill can have all punishments, censures, and other actions removed from it, and only serve as a resolution and evaluation? Date 22:43:28, July 30, 2005 CET From Adam Smith Party To Debating the Traitorous action by the Green Advantage Party. Message The point of this bill is to make their action known to the public. This has been done. Now it is for the public to judge if they approve or not of their action. We can not expect the public to make this a single issue election, so there will be those that approve of their action but still do not vote for them. The only reasonable measure is a comparison to their last showing. They are clear that they will not serve with either ourselves or yourselves in a cabinet, so the censure is irrelevant. We would prefer to get back to discussing national security rather than recriminations. Date 22:54:13, July 30, 2005 CET From Green Advantage To Debating the Traitorous action by the Green Advantage Party. Message I am happy to have the bill considered. It is entirely in order to ask other governments to express their opinion. It is the farthest thing posisble from "treason." Do all you can to "convince" Lodamun's government to change its mind, we asked other governments. That is our right. There is no violence and no treason involved. We are hardly surprised to see the nationalist fervour that lurks beneath the "libertarian" surface of the ASP and TIC, but for the record we note that once again they prefer loyalty to the State over their claimed libertarian principles. If other governments have no right to express their opinion to Lodamun, then the government of Lodamun has no right to express its opinion to other countries. As we have seen, the president councillor is more than happy to express his opinion to other governments when it suits him -- so much so that the prime minister had to rebuke him at an international conference in Rutania for taking sides. Will he not let other governments express their opinion to him? This is why this bill is an attempt to stifle free speech. The Greens will, at any time we wish, express our opinion both inside and outside Lodamun. If you want a "treasonous" statement, however: OUR HIGHEST LOYALTY IS NOT TO LODAMUN, IT IS TO THE EARTH. No law in Lodamun prevents us from this opinion. Unless this one is passed. Until then, we place our faith in Lodamun's principles on the freedom of speech. If this nation begins to condemn parties for "treason" then we will be on the slippy slope to dictatorship. Date 23:13:58, July 30, 2005 CET From Adam Smith Party To Debating the Traitorous action by the Green Advantage Party. Message It is not in order to ask other governments to place pressure on a democratic government to change its laws. You and your colleagues may campaign to raise the issue in the minds of the people, but to demand that a leagal and correct act of paerliament should be changed because people outside of the nation disagree with it is abandoning your role as representative of the people. Your statement that OUR HIGHEST LOYALTY IS NOT TO LODAMUN, IT IS TO THE EARTH. is indeed treasonous and disrespectful of those who voted for you. Your ideals may be as such, but your given task as a parliamentary party in a democratic republic is to represent your electorate. You may say what you wish, but to demand that other nations do everything in their power to overturn a law that you have not even read properly is calling for other nations to invade our country. That is high treason. You may express your opinion, you may not incite military action against your own nation. Is the difference clear. One is freedom of speech, the other is treason. Date 23:45:19, July 30, 2005 CET From Green Advantage To Debating the Traitorous action by the Green Advantage Party. Message please, tell us more of this new law you have made on "treason." Tell us more of how highly you value the State. Tell us more of how no government may peacefully express its opinion to another through non-violent persuasion. Each word shows you as more and more totalitarian. Date 00:01:52, July 31, 2005 CET From Adam Smith Party To Debating the Traitorous action by the Green Advantage Party. Message Treason is a concept, not a law. However we offer our congratulations and we will issue an apology for the accustaion. |
| Date | 05:15:44, July 31, 2005 CET | From | Cooperative Commonwealth Federation | To | Debating the International persuasion is not treason |
| Message | in light of the outcome of this debate, and posts by the ASP and ourselves on the forum thread, we trust there will be no difficulties passing this parliamentary resolution. |
| Date | 06:34:19, July 31, 2005 CET | From | Adam Smith Party | To | Debating the International persuasion is not treason |
| Message | Non violent canvassing, and peaceful means of persuasion are acceptable provide they do not infringe any specific laws of our nation. |
| Date | 03:46:13, August 01, 2005 CET | From |  Tuesday Is Coming | To | Debating the International persuasion is not treason |
| Message | To encourage other nations to mass troops on our border... That cannot be considered anything but treason |
| Date | 05:39:38, August 01, 2005 CET | From | Cooperative Commonwealth Federation | To | Debating the International persuasion is not treason |
| Message | The biggest encouragement to other nations massing troops on our border was of course the warlike comments of the mininster of defense, the selfsame warmonger who embarked Lodamun on the road towards chemical weapons. It is not treason to interfere with the profit margins of "IG Farben is Coming." |
| Date | 16:28:58, August 01, 2005 CET | From | Adam Smith Party | To | Debating the International persuasion is not treason |
| Message | Would the members for GA please recognise that issuing a public statement that said: Please, if you care for peace and the environment, contact the Lodamun government and do all you can to convince them to stop this insane march towards disaster. is the prime cause for this situation. Without this statement, the situation would not have arisen. The defense minister has an obligation to the nation to respond to threats to mass troops on our borders, which occurred prior to any statement made by Julius Fel, but was a direct result of the press release by the GA party or its radical wing at least. The debate in Baltusia starts: http://82.238.75.178:8085/particracy/main/viewbill.php?billid=10873 From a news article - "The new government of Lodamun has just passed a law authorizing the state to build chemical weapons. Another law authorizing nuclear weapons possession will pass shortly. Lodamun is a highly unstable state, with rapid swings of power, currently governed by a coalition of three parties: the Adam Smith Party, the Moderate Leftist Party and a Randroid mind control cult calling itself Tuesday is Coming. Chemical weapons in the hands of this cabal pose a clear danger to the peace of the world and the integrity of the ecosystem. The Lodamun Greens call on all concerned states to exert diplomatic pressure on Lodamun to renounce its weapons of mass destruction. There has already been one war in this region between Gaduridos and Kalistan. The Lodamun cabal is seeking allies as we speak. Please, if you care for peace and the environment, contact the Lodamun government and do all you can to convince them to stop this insane march towards disaster. No state should possess chemical weapons, and we hope sane governments will express this sentiment to Lodamun." It is with a grave displeasure that I ask the senate to take the following action - 1) Condemn Lodanum's actions on the international stage 2) Prepare our armed forces to the North of the republic 3) Prepare for ecnomic sanctions against Lodanum SEE LAST POST - If bill passes armed forces will mobilize on northern Lodanum/Kalistan border. Proposals Debate These messages have been posted to debate on this bill: Date 18:41:09, July 30, 2005 CET From Hosengott Nationalists To Debating the Emergency Situation - Lodanum's Chemical Weapons Message We support a movement agianst chemical and nuclear wepons however we support nothing more. Date 18:55:38, July 30, 2005 CET From Head of StateLargest Party Independant Socialist Party To Debating the Emergency Situation - Lodanum's Chemical Weapons Message So do you support the proposals given or not? If not, what are your suggestions? We would like to draw your attention to point 2 of their propsed response. "2) Prepare our armed forces to the North of the republic" To this threat, caused solely and exclusively by the press release issued by GA, the minister of defence is obliged to respond. Place the blame at the feet of the right party. |
| Date | 17:05:08, August 01, 2005 CET | From | Cooperative Commonwealth Federation | To | Debating the International persuasion is not treason |
| Message | The Greens have been in touch with the Praetor of Baltusia and have done much to rectify the situation. The Praetor's statement in our debates on chemical weapons and the motion to impeach General Fel make it very clear who the Baltusians feel provoked them. Is the head of state now calling the Baltusian head of state a liar? That is a very dangerous game, Sir. Once again, here is our initial statement with emphasis added: "The new government of Lodamun has just passed a law authorizing the state to build chemical weapons. Another law authorizing nuclear weapons possession will pass shortly. Lodamun is a highly unstable state, with rapid swings of power, currently governed by a coalition of three parties: the Adam Smith Party, the Moderate Leftist Party and a Randroid mind control cult calling itself Tuesday is Coming. Chemical weapons in the hands of this cabal pose a clear danger to the peace of the world and the integrity of the ecosystem. The Lodamun Greens call on all concerned states to exert *diplomatic pressure* on Lodamun to renounce its weapons of mass destruction. There has already been one war in this region between Gaduridos and Kalistan. The Lodamun cabal is seeking allies as we speak. Please, if you care for peace and the environment, contact the Lodamun government and do all you can to *convince* them to stop this insane march towards disaster. No state should possess chemical weapons, and we hope sane governments will express this sentiment to Lodamun." Baltusian concerns would have been easily handled, had the minister of defense not charged into the Baltusian senate, foaming at the mouth and threatening to develop a chemical weapons arsenal. At the conclusion of debate on the ASP's motion of "treason" against us, the ASP stated: "However we offer our congratulations and we will issue an apology for the accustaion." Is the ASP now reversing itself once again? |
| Date | 17:06:56, August 01, 2005 CET | From | Cooperative Commonwealth Federation | To | Debating the International persuasion is not treason |
| Message | the people of Lodamun have spoken very clearly, and vindicated Green actions in this matter at the ballot box. We trust that parliament will not reject their verdict. |
| Date | 17:20:04, August 01, 2005 CET | From | Adam Smith Party | To | Debating the International persuasion is not treason |
| Message | No we are not reversing ourselves. We still hold that your action was treasonable, but we can accept that it was unintentionally so given your actions from the point at which this was indicated to you. Now treason is a very complicated matter as it in our opinion depends not only on the action but also upon Mens Culpa. The action, of inviting other nations to do everything they could to dissuade us was treasonable, but the intent was aparently to only request peaceful action. As there is reasonable doubt, the jury of ouir public have found you not guilty, and as such we have appologised for the presumption of ill intent. We hope that is clear. We support this only on the condition that international pressure is PEACEFUL in nature. |
| Date | 17:29:55, August 01, 2005 CET | From | Adam Smith Party | To | Debating the International persuasion is not treason |
| Message | Having addressed the nature of treason, there still remains the issue of the responsibility for the current military tension between Baltusia and Lodamun. This is clearly the responsibility of the Green Advantage party. The cause of the military posturing by Baltusia was the press release by the Green Advantage. It matters not in this that the Green Advantage did not intend this outcome. A drunk driver does not intend to kill anyone, but when they do, it is their responsibility. It is manslaughter, not murder (although there are those that would prefer it to be considered murder) and by analogy the actions of the Green Advantage are merely dangerous not traitorous. The responsibility to do everything in their power that is peaceful to resolve this situation lies with the Green Advantage. You are responsible for the results of your actions, intended or otherwise. |
| Date | 17:53:20, August 01, 2005 CET | From | Cooperative Commonwealth Federation | To | Debating the International persuasion is not treason |
| Message | as stated ad nauseam by us, and now confirmed by the Baltusians: the cause of rising tension was the actions of General Fel, who threatened the Baltusian senate by saying that Lodamun might build and deploy chemical weapons. We have been in contact with the Baltusian government, and had General Fel not continued to make warlike statements, the situation would already have been resolved. TIC said: "To encourage other nations to mass troops on our border... That cannot be considered anything but treason." as the ASP has stated, we did not intend to do anything of the sort. As soon as the issue of troops deployment was raised, we asked the Baltusians not to do so. General Fel's threats, however, encouraged them to mass their troops on our border. By his own logic, General Fel stands convicted of treason. it is just as well that the Greens do not believe in this concept of "treason," or we would be accusing General Fel of this "crime". Since we do not believe in "treason," we accuse him only of being an incompetent warmonger and buffoon. |
| Date | 20:01:42, August 01, 2005 CET | From | Adam Smith Party | To | Debating the International persuasion is not treason |
| Message | It does not matter how many times you lie, it is still a lie. The evidence of the cause is presented. It is your responsibility GA. Stop trying to claim that you did nothing wrong, you did. Unintentionally maybe, But with your ongoing persecution of Fel, we are tempted to vote against this now. As you obviously are incapable, as a party, of putting the Nation ahead of some petty personal vendetta. |
| Date | 21:07:20, August 01, 2005 CET | From | Adam Smith Party | To | Debating the International persuasion is not treason |
| Message | We will support this if and only if you withdraw your request to impeach Julius Fel for doing his job. (OOC as the issue is in voting you can not withdraw it, so we will support this only on your making a statement of intent to withdraw) |
| Date | 01:18:02, August 02, 2005 CET | From | Cooperative Commonwealth Federation | To | Debating the International persuasion is not treason |
| Message | If the cabinet is re-organized so that General Fel is no longer Minister of Defense, then there will be no need for the impeachment. (OOC - vote yes, and I will say the impeachment motion has been withdrawn, since the demand was met. Good enough?) |
| Date | 01:19:31, August 02, 2005 CET | From | Cooperative Commonwealth Federation | To | Debating the International persuasion is not treason |
| Message | that's yes to the emergency cabinet proposal, to be clear. |
| Date | 01:27:41, August 02, 2005 CET | From | Adam Smith Party | To | Debating the International persuasion is not treason |
| Message | (Try proposing a cabinet that has some support from the people included then.) We can not accept that requirement. If the parties of the parliament wish Julius Fel as Commander in Chief, then they should be allowed to appoint him to that position. (I can not vote yes to a proposal that impeaches Fel, can I? We are just going to have to let that proposal be wiped out by time. In the meantime propose a different cabinet, or even the same one without the impeachment clauses.) |
| Date | 02:14:10, August 02, 2005 CET | From | Tuesday Is Coming | To | Debating the International persuasion is not treason |
| Message | Support another country in harming Lodamun=commit treason Any defence minister that allowed other countries to mass troops on the border without responding, would be guilty of neglecting his job. |
| Date | 02:14:20, August 02, 2005 CET | From | Tuesday Is Coming | To | Debating the International persuasion is not treason |
| Message | Support another country in harming Lodamun=commit treason Any defence minister that allowed other countries to mass troops on the border without responding, would be guilty of neglecting his job. |
| Date | 02:36:21, August 02, 2005 CET | From | Cooperative Commonwealth Federation | To | Debating the International persuasion is not treason |
| Message | and any defense minister who threatened another country's parliament with chemical weapons, as General Fel did, would face some serious recriminations. But the lies of TIC are nothing new. It is slightly more surprising to see the ASP vote against this bill after promising to vote for it. Has the ASP changed its mind and decided that peaceful persuasion IS treason? |
| Date | 02:41:09, August 02, 2005 CET | From | Adam Smith Party | To | Debating the International persuasion is not treason |
| Message | Please go and read carefullty what General Fel posted. There was no threat to attack anyone. Only a statement of willingness to defend ourselves by whatever means necessary and legally available at the time. ((OOC I have been eating dinner OK)) |
| Date | 04:50:36, August 02, 2005 CET | From | Tuesday Is Coming | To | Debating the International persuasion is not treason |
| Message | General Fel promised to match equal force with equal force. Chemical weapons were mentioned because, at the time, we reserved the right to build them, and Baltusia's stated goal was to prevent this. By mentioning that troops massed against us could push us to developing the weapons, they were put in a situation where: If they truly wanted to avoid the production of chemical weapons, they would not cause this by massing troops on our border. They would either not pass the bill, or remove the military action clause from it. If they massed troops on our border despite the possible consequences being the opposite of their stated goal, then they were lying about their stated goal, and simply using it as an excuse to prepare an attack against us. As they did pass the bill, and did mass troops on the border of Kregon, we have reason to doubt their reason for doing so. If they wished to prevent the creation of chemical weapons, they did the worst possible thing to accomplish this. |
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Voting
| Vote | Seats | |||||
| yes |
Total Seats: 307 | |||||
| no |
Total Seats: 67 | |||||
| abstain |
Total Seats: 76 |
| Random fact: Players using inactive accounts and/or accounts from outside nations may only propose bills and/or contribute to discussions, whether IC (in-character) or OOC (out-of-character) with the general consent of the players in the nation. |
| Random quote: "You have all the characteristics of a popular politician: a horrible voice, bad breeding, and a vulgar manner." Aristophanes (450 BC - 388 BC), Knights, 424 B.C. |