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Bill: Foreign policy initiative for peace
Details
Submitted by[?]: Cooperative Commonwealth Federation
Status[?]: passed
Votes: This bill is a resolution. It requires more yes votes than no votes. This bill will not pass any sooner than the deadline.
Voting deadline: April 2091
Description[?]:
| Parliament urges the foreign minister to: 1. Offer peace negotiations and a non-aggression pact to Baltusia, which is now voting on a bill to mobilize forces along our border. 2. Begin a non-violent international diplomatic campaign to convince the "dirty dozen" states which reserve the right to build chemical and biological weapons, to renounce these weapons of mass destruction. The dirty dozen are: Alduria Darnussia Dundorf Endralon Indrala Kalistan Kirlawa Likatonia Mordusia New Endralon Rildanor Telamon |
Proposals
Debate
These messages have been posted to debate on this bill:
| Date | 23:15:33, July 31, 2005 CET | From | Adam Smith Party | To | Debating the Foreign policy initiative for peace |
| Message | We should not offer anything to Baltusia until they stand down their forces. Their action is a direct consequence of the careless and inappropriate news release made by certain factions here. It is up to those factions to put right the error they made. As to the other nations on the list, from our point of view the only nations which we should negotiate or open discussons in any way regarding this issue are Kalistan and Likatonia. These are neighbours. The rest are not our business. |
| Date | 01:15:16, August 01, 2005 CET | From | Cooperative Commonwealth Federation | To | Debating the Foreign policy initiative for peace |
| Message | the defence minister's saber rattling in the Baltusian Senate did not help matters: by the time we became aware of it, it was too late to calm the waters. We have done all we can in Baltusia, both publicly and privately. But no matter whose fault this is, it has become a matter of foreign policy. The foreign minister is an accomplished diplomat, and may be able to resolve the situation. it is a shame that the ASP would prefer to have him do nothing. Hopefully other parties will not form their opinions purely from spite. The International Greens are already alive to the danger of chemical weapons proliferation and are acting to reverse it. Green Advantage has been in touch with the Social Greens of Likatonia on this matter. Sadly there are as yet no green parties in Kalistan. But as the people of Lodamun must certainly agree, chemical weapons proliferation is a concern to more than just Greens. This is why we make our request to the foreign minister. |
| Date | 05:30:02, August 02, 2005 CET | From |  Tuesday Is Coming | To | Debating the Foreign policy initiative for peace |
| Message | How is it any of our business how those nations choose to defend themselves? If they do not initiate any aggression, then the only thing we should do is defend ourselves from them. Develop vaccines to biological weapons, etc.(which btw, with the new ban, we cannot do). |
| Date | 16:22:47, August 02, 2005 CET | From | Adam Smith Party | To | Debating the Foreign policy initiative for peace |
| Message | We can now accept the non aggression pact with Baltusia, but we should extend it to include Valruzia as well. The three nations could easily form a defensive block. This may help to stem Kalistan's imperial aspirations. |
| Date | 21:01:28, August 02, 2005 CET | From | Cooperative Commonwealth Federation | To | Debating the Foreign policy initiative for peace |
| Message | the ban on chemical weapons does nothing to prevent research in any area. It is quite clear: Lodamun will not develop chemical weapons. |
| Date | 23:13:57, August 02, 2005 CET | From | Tuesday Is Coming | To | Debating the Foreign policy initiative for peace |
| Message | The chemical weapons ban did nothing to allow certain chemicals being used in war. Right now, the military is barred from using any. Bug spray to the eyes can be considered a weapon, therefore it is banned. Water can be lethal, and it is certainly a chemical. |
| Date | 04:20:31, August 03, 2005 CET | From | Cooperative Commonwealth Federation | To | Debating the Foreign policy initiative for peace |
| Message | The laws of Lodamun: "The nation shall never develop, purchase or store biological or chemical weaponry." seems clear enough, to anyone not being deliberately obtuse. |
| Date | 07:43:18, August 03, 2005 CET | From | Tuesday Is Coming | To | Debating the Foreign policy initiative for peace |
| Message | Read the bill description, you wrote it: http://82.238.75.178:8085/particracy/main/viewbill.php?billid=11605 The description is vague, and only a single line long. "Chemical weapons" isnt restricted to chemicals that have no other uses. Therefore we can interpret it to mean any chemical that has a practical application in war, or a potential to harm. From websters, "weapon" Something used to injure, defeat, or destroy. Spraying agricultural pesticides, mosquito repellent, etc. on enemy troops would certaintly injure their vision and breathing. Whether other governments wish to retain tear gas or other non-lethal chemical weapons, is, honestly, none of our business. The same applies to countries that attempt to formulate biological solutions to biological weapons. Biological weapons are composed of organisms, therefore other organisms can be created to prey upon and destroy(or else just render harmless) biological threats. However, we are currently banned from undertaking research into developing these creatures, as they would "harm, injure, defeat, and destroy" other organisms, specifically anthrax, plague, and other biological weapons. |
| Date | 17:10:38, August 03, 2005 CET | From | Adam Smith Party | To | Debating the Foreign policy initiative for peace |
| Message | GA: - "the ban on chemical weapons does nothing to prevent research in any area. It is quite clear: Lodamun will not develop chemical weapons." The Law: - "The government's policy concerning biological and chemical weaponry. The nation shall never develop, purchase or store biological or chemical weaponry." Now unless research and development are completely different things, which they patently are not, one of these two statements is wrong. We think that at the moment it is the claim by GA. |
| Date | 17:13:26, August 03, 2005 CET | From | Cooperative Commonwealth Federation | To | Debating the Foreign policy initiative for peace |
| Message | The bill description is: "Lodamun will not develop chemical weapons under any circumstances." The meaning is extremely clear. As minister of science and bill drafter, I am interpreting the law to permit the use of water, pesticides (where permitted by law), research into protecting troops against chemical weapons attacks. "Chemical weapons" does not mean all weapons. Lodamun never gave itself any rights with regard to biological weapons, so this is irrelevant. It had never occurred to us that the Board of Directors of IG Farben is Coming would try to obfuscate on the meaning of chemical weaponry, so we did not provide a definition in the bill. If we had, it would have been the list of chemical weapons given in the Chemical Weapons Convention. See http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/Chemical_Weapons_Convention |
| Date | 17:15:09, August 03, 2005 CET | From | Cooperative Commonwealth Federation | To | Debating the Foreign policy initiative for peace |
| Message | The Greens also believe that we have every right, as members of the human race, to concern ourselves with the policies of other countries. After all, we invited other countreis to concern themselves with our policies. Our highest loyalty is no to any State, it is to Terra. |
| Date | 18:42:28, August 03, 2005 CET | From | Tuesday Is Coming | To | Debating the Foreign policy initiative for peace |
| Message | "The Greens also believe that we have every right, as members of the human race, to concern ourselves with the policies of other countries." Wrong, you do not have any business concerning yourselves with other countries, unless those countries pose a direct threat to this one. Lodamun should be your concern, you are elected to represent people of Lodamun. "After all, we invited other countreis to concern themselves with our policies. Our highest loyalty is no to any State, it is to Terra." "We" did not, you did. The defence of Lodamun is our reponsibility and no other nation has any "right" to get involved. Nor do you have a right to invite them to. "Lodamun never gave itself any rights with regard to biological weapons, so this is irrelevant." No, but we did "reserve the right to develop" biological "weapons". "The bill description is: "Lodamun will not develop chemical weapons under any circumstances."" Therefore, Lodamun will not allow the development of any chemicals that can be readily used as weapons. "The meaning is extremely clear. As minister of science and bill drafter," The meaning is not "extremely clear". The next minister of science may have more respect for the letter of the law than you do. "I am interpreting the law to permit the use of water, pesticides (where permitted by law)," Hm, they arent permitted by law...But we have seen in the past that the Greens wish to ban all pesticides anyway... "research into protecting troops against chemical weapons attacks." Use chemicals for a military purpose?! Isnt that what you were trying to ban? "Chemical weapons" does not mean all weapons. No, it means all chemicals that have a significant potential to injure, defeat, or destroy something. "It had never occurred to us that the Board of Directors of IG Farben is Coming would try to obfuscate on the meaning of chemical weaponry," Me neither, who is this Board of Directors? "so we did not provide a definition in the bill." A rather significant omission, dont you think? "If we had, it would have been the list of chemical weapons given in the Chemical Weapons Convention. See http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/Chemical_Weapons_Convention" That would have been appreciated. However, it cannot be added to the bill now, because this mess wasnt worked out in the debate phase... |
| Date | 21:51:21, August 03, 2005 CET | From | Adam Smith Party | To | Debating the Foreign policy initiative for peace |
| Message | It is not the job of the minister to interpret the law. That job lies with the judiciary. It is the job of the minister to try to make the law as clear as possible an expression of their intent. The omission of this implies that the bill should be redrafted and resubmitted. ((This can be done as an ammendment to the bill with no proposal attached. )) ((Additionally, OOC it is bad roleplaying to invent a company controlled by another player, please don't do this kind of thing. See Wouters RP guidelines in the forum: http://www.takeforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=848&mforum=particracy )) |
| Date | 02:29:50, August 04, 2005 CET | From | Cooperative Commonwealth Federation | To | Debating the Foreign policy initiative for peace |
| Message | "we" = the Greens. We, the Greens, invited other countries to comment on our laws. "IG Farben is Coming" is one of several names that this party has used for TIC. The ASP has also bene referred to as ASPCorp, etc. This expresses our belief that both parties are just shills for their corporate masters. It is the job of the minister to apply the law. The law says nothing about banning research in chemistry, so the science ministry will not intervene in any way with this sort of scientific research. |
| Date | 05:28:35, August 04, 2005 CET | From | Tuesday Is Coming | To | Debating the Foreign policy initiative for peace |
| Message | ""IG Farben is Coming" is one of several names that this party has used for TIC. The ASP has also bene referred to as ASPCorp, etc. This expresses our belief that both parties are just shills for their corporate masters." As corporations do not actually exist on Terra yet, two parties run by corporations would be a very difficult achievement indeed... ((Please refrain from defining facts related to my party. "Only roleplay people from your own party. Never assume the role of any significant person outside your party. You may not spread facts about a person not member of your party, unless when specifically mentioned that your party spreads it as a rumour. This rule does not apply when the character's "owner" has consented with your roleplaying scenario, but even in such case it is preferrable that the owner roleplays it himself. "--Wouter If you state something (other than concrete facts you are able to back up with previous quotes from me) about TiC, please make it clear from the context that you say it as a rumor. As the "owner" of TiC, I do not consent to you defining RP facts about my party)) "we" = the Greens. We, the Greens, invited other countries to comment on our laws. "It is the job of the minister to apply the law. The law says nothing about banning research in chemistry, so the science ministry will not intervene in any way with this sort of scientific research." Of course we should have known that Green Advantage would use their cabinet position to corrupt and redefine the law as they see fit. We apologize for hoping that this was not the case. As it is, the law states: "Lodamun will not develop chemical weapons under any circumstances."--Bill Description "Proposed: The nation shall never develop, purchase or store biological or chemical weaponry."--Proposal value Both claim to prohibit private or public entities of Lodamun from "developing" chemical weaponry. "Researching weapons with a significant potential to be used as a weapon", for all logical and legal purposes, is exactly the same as "developing chemical weapons". As Green Advantage has supported a ban on the development of chemical weapons, they now violate a Lodamun law they authored when they claim to apply this law in a way that does not ban any form of "research in chemistry". They cannot, as the minister of science and technology, allow unrestricted "research in chemistry" (as they now claim to do), without perverting the very law that they caused this nation to pass. We now open an official review of Green Advantage's actions as Minister of Science. |
| Date | 21:56:12, August 04, 2005 CET | From | Cooperative Commonwealth Federation | To | Debating the Foreign policy initiative for peace |
| Message | that debate can move to the relevant thread, then. with the new ability to propose treaties, this is now a request for the CNT, as foreign minister, to make a treaty on banning CBW. |
| Date | 22:07:57, August 04, 2005 CET | From | Tuesday Is Coming | To | Debating the Foreign policy initiative for peace |
| Message | We oppose this bill, not as enemies of peace, but as supporters of each nation's sovereignty. |
| Date | 00:19:18, August 05, 2005 CET | From | Adam Smith Party | To | Debating the Foreign policy initiative for peace |
| Message | Would the GA please try to get its bill descriptions in line with the facts. Baltusia is not voting on a mobilization bill and as such we can not vote for this. It should not really have been put to vote at all. We vote against, simply because the description is untrue. We would support a well constructed anti chemical and biological weapons agreement. We will not support one that cripples our national industry by preventing then from developing dangerous chemicals for use in peaceful applications. |
| Date | 18:27:38, August 05, 2005 CET | From | CNT/AFL | To | Debating the Foreign policy initiative for peace |
| Message | Maia Tenorio is presently at work on a Non-Aggression and Economic Co-Operation treaty with Baltusia. |
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Voting
| Vote | Seats | |||||
| yes |
Total Seats: 262 | |||||
| no |
Total Seats: 171 | |||||
| abstain |
Total Seats: 17 |
| Random fact: The grey space in the east is populated by the forum-based countries, known in-game as the former colonies or the "Third World". These countries are managed by the Third World Coordinator but players can request control of individual countries in the Third World Control Requests thread: http://forum.particracy.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=8302 |
| Random quote: "A people that values its privileges above its principles soon loses both." - Dwight D. Eisenhower |