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Bill: Bill to increase Lodamun Productivity
Details
Submitted by[?]: Free Lodamun
Status[?]: passed
Votes: This is an ordinary bill. It requires more yes votes than no votes. This bill will not pass any sooner than the deadline.
Voting deadline: June 2418
Description[?]:
| Because of vague wording in each article here is what we interpret each article to mean, and the restrictions therein: Article 1: The Term "Child Labor" is to mean "Any Lodamun Subject over the age of 15 with their parent's or guardian's consent" Article 2: This article will also create an oversight committee that is an extension of the Parliament of Free Peoples that will meet when called upon to review each strike case before those workers are allowed to be fired. Article 3: This age is the minimum age the government recommends to be eligible for government assistance in order to retire. It is unlawful to force a person from their job simply because of their age. |
Proposals
Article 1
Proposal[?] to change The government's policy concerning child labour.
Old value:: Child labour is forbidden.
Current: Child labour is forbidden.
Proposed: Child labour is regulated by local governments.
Article 2
Proposal[?] to change Employer's rights in regards to firing striking workers.
Old value:: Employers cannot fire workers who have gone on strike.
Current: Employers cannot fire workers who have gone on strike.
Proposed: Government approval is needed before strikers can be fired.
Article 3
Proposal[?] to change The professional retirement age.
Old value:: 60
Current: 60
Proposed: 65
Debate
These messages have been posted to debate on this bill:
| Date | 01:16:55, June 07, 2007 CET | From | Free Lodamun | To | Debating the Bill to increase Lodamun Productivity |
| Message | This Bill supports capitalism and small government. Comments? |
| Date | 01:23:45, June 07, 2007 CET | From | Free Lodamun | To | Debating the Bill to increase Lodamun Productivity |
| Message | Also, please keep in mind that trade unions cannot strike without the majority of members voting to actually strike (this is the law). Thus, there will be very little strikes and this ensures that if an essential insitution like a hospital or school strike, they can hire replacements. |
| Date | 01:43:32, June 07, 2007 CET | From | Radical Nationalist Party | To | Debating the Bill to increase Lodamun Productivity |
| Message | We cant agree to Article 1, and Article 3 we are not keen on but are willing to agree if article one is removed. |
| Date | 02:05:37, June 07, 2007 CET | From | Independent Republican Party | To | Debating the Bill to increase Lodamun Productivity |
| Message | We're undecided about Article 2. What would be considered an "unreasonable reason" to strike? |
| Date | 02:07:00, June 07, 2007 CET | From | Free Lodamun | To | Debating the Bill to increase Lodamun Productivity |
| Message | What's wrong with article one? I know we've had this duscussion but I'm willing to allow local governments to know better than we the needs of thier regions. I have faith that if, in the amazingly rare occurrance of one region making terrible child labor laws, the national government can step in and stop it. I thought we had basically agreed that the wording of the proposal is misleading, and that we consider "child labor" in this context over the age of 15-16. This would allow local governments to have that if they so choose. |
| Date | 02:14:21, June 07, 2007 CET | From | Free Lodamun | To | Debating the Bill to increase Lodamun Productivity |
| Message | As for article 2, I interpretted that as anything hurting an essential service such as a school or hospital for something as inconsequential as a few % pay raise or a handful of extra vacation days. These are service industries that participants KNEW they were service industries, assuming management isn;t being completely unreasonable there is no reason they should be shut down. As I understood it, it seems that this act may imply a strike oversight committee, perhaps even as an extension of this body or the local government? The wording is pretty vague, which is why we have the ability to debate, i guess. |
| Date | 03:58:57, June 07, 2007 CET | From | Lodamun Distributionist Party | To | Debating the Bill to increase Lodamun Productivity |
| Message | We echo the concern of the Moderates. It seems possible that without some sort of oversight (at least on the local level), this vague wording could easily lead to abuses. As for Article 1, the LDP authored the bill that changed the law to what it is, but we agree that there was a misinterpretation of the wording. We will agree to this bill providing there is an oversight committee set up in the case of Article 2, and as long as this body can come to an agreement that the meaning of Article 1 is as stated by the Free Lodamuns. |
| Date | 04:50:14, June 07, 2007 CET | From | Free Lodamun | To | Debating the Bill to increase Lodamun Productivity |
| Message | Should i add those to the description then, and define what we want these terms to mean? |
| Date | 09:35:00, June 07, 2007 CET | From | United Republics Party | To | Debating the Bill to increase Lodamun Productivity |
| Message | I find this bill disturbing. |
| Date | 13:48:15, June 07, 2007 CET | From | Radical Nationalist Party | To | Debating the Bill to increase Lodamun Productivity |
| Message | Untill the reccomendations put forward by us are done, we will not be able to support this bill. |
| Date | 17:24:42, June 07, 2007 CET | From | Free Lodamun | To | Debating the Bill to increase Lodamun Productivity |
| Message | Ok changes were made. what do you think now? This hasen't really been explained yet so I will now, by raising the retirement age, we're taking 5 years off of the amount of time each of those people spends milking off of the state. We're reducing the cost of our welfare state. |
| Date | 21:24:30, June 07, 2007 CET | From | Lodamun Distributionist Party | To | Debating the Bill to increase Lodamun Productivity |
| Message | The LDP can agree to these proposals. Good work. |
| Date | 01:05:13, June 08, 2007 CET | From | Radical Nationalist Party | To | Debating the Bill to increase Lodamun Productivity |
| Message | I meant the removal of the child Labour. |
| Date | 08:03:00, June 08, 2007 CET | From | United Republics Party | To | Debating the Bill to increase Lodamun Productivity |
| Message | if you want government approval, i suggest you change your bill |
| Date | 08:20:27, June 08, 2007 CET | From | Free Lodamun | To | Debating the Bill to increase Lodamun Productivity |
| Message | To what? This is a debate. So debate. If you have a problem with it, what is it? Let's recap you comments: I find this bill disturbing. if you want government approval, i suggest you change your bill So ok, what are you looking for other than the oppertunity to throw your weight around? |
| Date | 19:40:08, June 08, 2007 CET | From | Free Lodamun | To | Debating the Bill to increase Lodamun Productivity |
| Message | URP, are you going to lodge any actual concerns here? I would like to have everyone heard out before this is put to vote. |
| Date | 22:26:24, June 08, 2007 CET | From | United Republics Party | To | Debating the Bill to increase Lodamun Productivity |
| Message | This entire bill is unnecessary. we just banned child labor (which i opposed) but why leave it up to local governments? then you put "regulations on it. If you want to put regulations on it change it to child labor is allowed with additional regulations. Likewise as I already pointed out if you want the government to approve firing striking workers you need to change thaTt as well to the government approval is required to fire striking workers. Lastly, why raise the retirement age? If the government cannot afford it, we suggest cutting benefits. This would allow workers with savings outside the government pension system to still retire at 60, while those who have unwisely saved nothing could continue working until 65 to build the savings they require. |
| Date | 00:04:20, June 09, 2007 CET | From | Free Lodamun | To | Debating the Bill to increase Lodamun Productivity |
| Message | Answers for your questions: Why should child labor (which we just outlawed) be left up to local governments with retrictions on it from this Bill? The original child labor law is the one you're suggesting which was changed to our current one only a few months ago. I don't think any of us are completely satisfied with it and I was attempting a compromise. By leaving it up to local governments with our added restrictions, it allows them to decide what's best for their subjects. If everyone is willing to cahnge the law back for all of Lodamun, I'll happily change it, assuming we keep the same restrictions so its more clearly defined. You're right, with the restrictions we've placed on it, I'll change it to the government approval one. Thank you. What our current law is lacking is the clause that no one can get fired because of age, so currently, you hit 60 and you start living off of the state. Money isn't a problem yet for our welfare state, but as our population grows it will be. If we were to cut those benefits we would then have poor, old, dying people instead of old healthy people. Let's be honost, once a person hits retirement age they are, for the most part, a drag on the economy. By raising the retirement age, this prolongs their productivity and keeps them from living off the state. If a well prepared subject is ready to retire early, this will not force them to work until 60 or 65 or whenever. A well off subject can retire at 20 if they choose to. This law is the age when you're eligible for state provided assistance in order TO retire, its not for the well off. |
| Date | 00:56:29, June 09, 2007 CET | From | Radical Nationalist Party | To | Debating the Bill to increase Lodamun Productivity |
| Message | We are against Child Labour as it takes them away from their studies, we believe that this is bad for society. If you want to bring in a system where children can earn, maybe we should look at implementing some sort of scheme where children can get paid for taking on extra subjects in school. |
| Date | 01:06:24, June 09, 2007 CET | From | Free Lodamun | To | Debating the Bill to increase Lodamun Productivity |
| Message | That's a very fine idea. But then we're hit the quagmire of which subjects will be paid, will there be a sliding pay scale for grades, who determines the wage... Its certainly interesting enough that it warrents debate. |
| Date | 10:44:43, June 09, 2007 CET | From | United Republics Party | To | Debating the Bill to increase Lodamun Productivity |
| Message | Article 2: This article will also create an oversight committee that is an extension of the Parliament of Free Peoples that will meet when called upon to review each strike case before those workers are allowed to be fired. Change the bill to read : Child labour is allowed, but with additional regulations to those of adult labourers. This is a bait and switch if I ever saw one. |
| Date | 10:47:13, June 09, 2007 CET | From | United Republics Party | To | Debating the Bill to increase Lodamun Productivity |
| Message | SORRY I copied and pasted the wrong things Just ignore that last post |
| Date | 17:50:54, June 09, 2007 CET | From | Free Lodamun | To | Debating the Bill to increase Lodamun Productivity |
| Message | Its cool, I knew what you meant. Look, I want it allowed nationwide and regulated too and I'm happy to change the first article but we just canceled that very law a few months ago. I wanted a bit more debate on it before i changed it or we voted. |
| Date | 23:02:23, June 09, 2007 CET | From | Free Lodamun | To | Debating the Bill to increase Lodamun Productivity |
| Message | mostly i wanted to hear where the moderates stood, they're kind of the swing vote. |
| Date | 13:06:11, June 10, 2007 CET | From | Radical Nationalist Party | To | Debating the Bill to increase Lodamun Productivity |
| Message | The subjects could be deemed on the skills that our current work force lack, so we would be preparing our youth for the future. |
| Date | 15:34:16, June 13, 2007 CET | From | Lodamun Liberal-Conservative Party | To | Debating the Bill to increase Lodamun Productivity |
| Message | We are essentially impartial to Article's 1 and 3, but article 2 is certainly a step in the right direction. Ideally, we would like employers to be able to have full influence over hiring and firing policies - mainly because they are the only ones of any signifigance to this issue, because they are the ones who are responsible for determining whether the business is making adequate profit, maintaining the requirements of competion set by rival businesses, and, perhaps most fundamentally, because they are the owner and therefore the rightful determining agent of the business. The business, essentially, could be viewed as the employer's property. And if it was not for the employer, the employees would have nothing to begin with. Besides, the market is far more efficient in regulating business's hiring and firing policies than the government - if such a large majority of workers from one business are fired for striking, and if they indeed had legitimate reason for striking, then the employer will eventually lack the number of willing employees required in the operation of the business. The reasons for striking, such as poor conditions or pay, will take their toll on the offending business naturally through the natural mechanisms of the market, and do not require any government intervention. Having said all of this, we support Article 2, in that it is a step in the right direction. Overall, we can support this legislation. |
| Date | 20:33:20, June 13, 2007 CET | From | United Republics Party | To | Debating the Bill to increase Lodamun Productivity |
| Message | Can FL finally put this bill to a vote? They obviously will not change the wording to reflect its true intent. Bait and switch, my friends. |
| Date | 22:43:40, June 13, 2007 CET | From | Free Lodamun | To | Debating the Bill to increase Lodamun Productivity |
| Message | Alrighty, what's the bait and what's the switch? Last time you threw out that accusation you said to disregard the post. If you want legislation chaned in the debate session, you actually need to spell out what you want changed? Keep in mind I have answered your question about article 1 a few times now and i am about to do so again. As I've stated I think twice now, I'm in full support of child labour with additional regulations from adults. IN FULL SUPPORT. However, the Child Labor Bill of February 2411 which we ("we" as a body, the URP, RIP and I tried very hard to quash it) passed, outlawing child labor. I don't want to put this to a vote until I know where the Moderates stand. Changing the law to allow local governments to decide is a compromise between the two positions. This is where the diplomacy comes in, we want something, they want something, we try and find middle ground. If the moderates were to say that they would support changeing article 1 to what it was originally with the new restrictions spellng out and defining "child labor" then we'll change it. happily. I'm not trying to trick anyone here (I'm on the URP's side for once), I'm simply looking for a solution we're all happy with. |
| Date | 18:12:03, June 14, 2007 CET | From | Lodamun Distributionist Party | To | Debating the Bill to increase Lodamun Productivity |
| Message | We are confused on the "bait and switch" issue as well. Also, as it is obvious that the two largest parties will simply shoot this proposal down, it would be pointless to move it along. A compromise should be made or, if that proves to be impossible, the proposal should be shelved. Why would you move a defeated bill along? |
| Date | 08:48:59, June 15, 2007 CET | From | United Republics Party | To | Debating the Bill to increase Lodamun Productivity |
| Message | LDP, that's why I want a vote. Let's just put the issue to rest. FL will not change the bill to what he claims it is. I would not support this bill in any event because it will negatively impact the quality of life of all Lodamese. There are better ways to improve productivity than making people work 8 years longer than they do currently. |
| Date | 17:50:12, June 15, 2007 CET | From | Free Lodamun | To | Debating the Bill to increase Lodamun Productivity |
| Message | I want you to listen as hard as you can. The current retirement age is 60 So the government starts paying benefits at 60. If raised to 65, we keep workers actively employed longer, raise the standard of living and give them more time to prepare for retirement. the URP wants the original child labor law. This is a compromise. If the moderates would weigh in, we'd change it. This bill is too important for our economy to risk getting shot down because the democratic process hasn't finished yet. This bill increases the Lodamese work force. |
| Date | 19:49:15, June 18, 2007 CET | From | Lodamun Distributionist Party | To | Debating the Bill to increase Lodamun Productivity |
| Message | We need to get something done with this stalled legislation. We leave it to the Free Lodamese to decide whether to move it to vote, seperate each proposal or pull it entirely. The LDP would council seperating each proposal so we could get the maximum out of this proposal. |
| Date | 20:56:18, June 20, 2007 CET | From | Free Lodamun | To | Debating the Bill to increase Lodamun Productivity |
| Message | Alright, its up to a vote. Assuming this fails, I'll toss each up individually but this will reset after the election anyways. |
| Date | 02:52:35, June 23, 2007 CET | From | Free Lodamun | To | Debating the Bill to increase Lodamun Productivity |
| Message | This has been put up to a vote to bring it back to the forefront of debate. We give our blessing to the NMP to break this into parts, should the whole package fail. |
| Date | 02:53:43, June 23, 2007 CET | From | Free Lodamun | To | Debating the Bill to increase Lodamun Productivity |
| Message | and... crap. the article orders changed. Let me know if you can't follow which ones go to which. |
| Date | 04:50:42, June 23, 2007 CET | From | The Unified Lodamun Party | To | Debating the Bill to increase Lodamun Productivity |
| Message | YOu know, I think I actually can get behind this now. |
| Date | 04:51:38, June 23, 2007 CET | From | The Unified Lodamun Party | To | Debating the Bill to increase Lodamun Productivity |
| Message | And that my friends, is why bills should sit in debate until we have had the time to work out the kinks. This makes me happy. |
| Date | 05:28:44, June 23, 2007 CET | From | Communist Party of Lodamun | To | Debating the Bill to increase Lodamun Productivity |
| Message | The CPL stands against child labor, whatever Free Lodamun's definition of it is, and also stands against firing workers on strike. Sometimes, corporations don't listen to the workers when they speak, and sometimes it is only action that will make the corporations listen. |
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Voting
| Vote | Seats | ||||||
| yes |
Total Seats: 311 | ||||||
| no | Total Seats: 288 | ||||||
| abstain | Total Seats: 0 |
| Random fact: Particracy does not allow real-life fictional references (eg. Gandalf, Harry Potter, Luke Skywalker). |
| Random quote: "Democracy is more dangerous than fire. Fire can't vote itself immune to water." - Michael Z. Williamson |