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Bill: Act of Succession
Details
Submitted by[?]: Luthori Tory Party
Status[?]: passed
Votes: This bill asks for an amendement to the Constitution. It will require two-thirds of the legislature to vote in favor. This bill will not pass any sooner than the deadline.
Voting deadline: January 2442
Description[?]:
| To put the "Empire" back into Holy Luthori! |
Proposals
Article 1
Proposal[?] to change The constitutional right and responsibility to propose a cabinet to the legislature.
Old value:: Only the Head of State can propose a cabinet coalition.
Current: Each party can propose a cabinet coalition.
Proposed: Each party can propose a cabinet coalition.
Article 2
Proposal[?] to change Structure of the executive branch.
Old value:: The Head of State is also Head of Government.
Current: The Head of State is hereditary and symbolic; the Head of Government chairs the cabinet.
Proposed: The Head of State is hereditary and symbolic; the Head of Government chairs the cabinet.
Article 3
Proposal[?] to change The title of the head of government, who chairs the cabinet.
Old value:: Holy Luthori Emperor's Viceroy
Current: Prime Minister
Proposed: Emperor's Counsel
Article 4
Proposal[?] to change The formal title of the Head of State.
Old value:: Holy Luthori Emperor's Viceroy
Current: His Irrevocable Imperial Majesty, by the Almighty's Grace, Inheritor of the House of Elior, Inheritor of the House of Orange-Villayn, Inheritor of the House of Rothingren-Traugott, Albert, Emperor of Luthori, King of Mordusia, King of Rutania, Meleh (King) of the Yeudi Homeland, Head of the House of Orange-Villayn Armstead, Duke of Alcarie, Duke of Canterwall, Holder of the Yeudi Crown of 8 Gems, Supreme Governor of the Church, Defender of the Faith, Defender of the Holy Land.
Proposed: His Serene Majesty, the Holy Luthori Emperor of All Terra
Article 5
Proposal[?] to change The national motto.
Old value:: Quo fas et gloria ducunt (Personal motto of His Serene Majesty The Holy Luthori Emperor)
Current: In hoc signo vinces (In this sign you will conquer)
Proposed: In hoc signo vinces
Debate
These messages have been posted to debate on this bill:
| Date | 15:58:03, August 02, 2007 CET |
From | Covenanters (IA) | To | Debating the Act of Succession | | Message | Mr Speaker,
Since my old and hon Friend is such a fan of Old Oalapese, might I suggest that we adopt and official style of Die Gratia, Sacrum Luthorum Imperator, Fidei Defensor (By the Grace of God, Holy Luthori Emperor, Defender of the Faith) but use the shorter title 'His Serene Majesty Holy Luthori Emperor' for day to day use?
I yield the floor.
ooc: We use the Die Gratia/By the Grace of God form for roleplay but the game uses HSM HLE as the name prefix - just like HM The Queen has a full style in Latin and English but HMTQ or HMQEII is commonly used. |
| Date | 16:23:55, August 02, 2007 CET |
From | Luthori Tory Party | To | Debating the Act of Succession | | Message | [OOC: Will change it. Not sure of the rest of the titles - if we translate, they will come out fairly similarly...Scrap them?] |
| Date | 16:40:04, August 02, 2007 CET |
From | Covenanters (IA) | To | Debating the Act of Succession | | Message | ooc: There's an obvious solution that HM Queen Elizabeth I used 500 years ago. "Die Gratia, Sacrum Luthorum Imperator, Fidei Defensor, &c" (where etcetera replaces all the other titles, which we can list in full in English in the Wiki, discussions, bills and other RP areas). |
| Date | 17:24:16, August 02, 2007 CET |
From | Imperial Vodka and Pimm's Party | To | Debating the Act of Succession | | Message | ooc: My problem is with the titles themselves, though. It is unlikely that an Emperor would continue to hold or list titles such as 'Lord Mayor'. What generally happens to additional noble titles held by an established monarch is that they get handed on to family members or supporters, and only those titles (like the Duke of Normandy) which are territorially important or important to a claim on a foreign throne are retained. So if we could condense the list of titles, and use some more interesting ones like:
Graf (count in German, used in the Holy Roman Empire)
Reichsgraf (Count of the Empire; used in the Holy Roman Empire- I suggest a Latin version of this be used as a title in our HLE.)
Armiger (military title, originally unlanded knight or arms-holding squire)
Burgrave (count or earl holding a castle/fort: important in the RL Holy Roman Empire because German Princes the Empire 'Reichsfuerst' all held the title)
Margrave (border count, equivalent to Marquess but more Holy Empire sounding)
|
| Date | 17:29:52, August 02, 2007 CET |
From | Imperial Vodka and Pimm's Party | To | Debating the Act of Succession | | Message | ooc: Burgrave is equivalent to a Castellan or Castellanus in Latin, I suggest both Burgrave and Castellanus be used to simulate the Oalapese culture and the other presbytery cultures, Chatelain for ladies (as it sounds more womanly).
Also, could we think of a better name for the regions than 'presbytery' - it's religious but not really Holy Roman Empire sounding, and a presbytery IRL is a much smaller territory. Archdiocese would be better if you want to stick to religious nomenclature or my suggestion is Palatinate (a territory administered by a count answerable directly to the monarch).
We should write up a list of noble ranks in the Holy Luthori Empire for the wiki. |
| Date | 17:58:23, August 02, 2007 CET |
From | Imperial Vodka and Pimm's Party | To | Debating the Act of Succession | | Message | ooc: Also won't you need to pass making the HoS hereditary and symbolic before changing the title of the HoS? We want the HoG to stay as Holy Luthori Emperor's Viceroy. To be honest I don't like the Latin at all, it's pointless. We'll never be referring to the 'Imperator'. |
| Date | 18:24:29, August 02, 2007 CET |
From | Imperial Vodka and Pimm's Party | To | Debating the Act of Succession | | Message | ooc: Also, can regions be two words? If so, how about 'County Palatine' - used a lot in the Holy Roman Empire. It means the same as 'Palatinate' but sounds a bit better. What do you think? |
| Date | 18:26:04, August 02, 2007 CET |
From | Covenanters (IA) | To | Debating the Act of Succession | | Message | ooc: Pimms is right. Leave the HoG alone and change HoS to "His Serene Majesty, the Holy Luthori Emperor" (Die Gratia/By the Grace of God... is for Wiki/RP purposes - HM The Queen isn't commonly known as Die Gratia, Elizabeth II Regina, Fidei Defensor", is she?) and you will need to change the HoS to hereditary before the next election otherwise an election will be held for the position of Emperor, which would be highly irregular and unconstitutional! |
| Date | 18:28:43, August 02, 2007 CET |
From | Covenanters (IA) | To | Debating the Act of Succession | | Message | ooc: I don't like the idea of reducing the nations of the Empire to counties (Lancashire and Durham were Counties Palatine - Utagia is more like England than Durham). |
| Date | 20:33:00, August 02, 2007 CET |
From | Imperial Vodka and Pimm's Party | To | Debating the Act of Succession | | Message | ooc: The use in England was different to the use on the continent. Even so, those Earls Palatine in England were more or less monarchs, they had free reign (in the literal sense) within their counties but followed the King of England in foreign wars. Unlike English nobility, the King of England wasn't their liege although their Counties and Earldoms were part of England. It's quite close to what we have in Luthori, don't consider the modern use of the word 'county'. |
| Date | 20:40:07, August 02, 2007 CET |
From | Covenanters (IA) | To | Debating the Act of Succession | | Message | ooc: In the context of the players of this game - in the 21st century - "county" would belittle our Empire and make it appear to be a mere nation. We've had Presbyteries for hundreds of years, and I am loathe to change them as they are the last remaining of the refroms I made when I had a 2/3rds supermajority in my own right (the Viceroy used to be the Moderator - a title that I think sounds awesome). If we did have to change it I would prefer to see Kingdom, Nation, Country or - at the very least - Principality or Bishopric (maybe even Prince Bishopric, Prince Bishopric Palatine, &c) but not Archdiocese and certainly not County. |
| Date | 20:50:51, August 02, 2007 CET |
From | Imperial Vodka and Pimm's Party | To | Debating the Act of Succession | | Message | ooc: The problem with making the HoS hereditary again also is that it's so difficult to change it. I'm currently compiling a list of all Luthori Heads of State and Richard the Lionheart was HoS for centuries. I like Kingdom Palatine or Palatinate Kingdom for region. |
| Date | 20:53:32, August 02, 2007 CET |
From | Imperial Vodka and Pimm's Party | To | Debating the Act of Succession | | Message | ooc: I suggested 'County Palatine', which is /not/ a county in the modern sense. The Holy Roman Empire's 'Princes of the Empire' ruled over County Palatines, even though they were princes. |
| Date | 00:59:23, August 03, 2007 CET |
From | Covenanters (IA) | To | Debating the Act of Succession | | Message | ooc: If we're not going hereditary then there's no way we should change the title. Having a new "Emperor" every four years - with surnames and such-like taken from candidates' names - would be problematic for our status as a genuine Empire. Kingdom Palatine sounds okay, I suppose, but how about Presbytery Palatine/Palatinate Presbytery? |
| Date | 02:20:29, August 03, 2007 CET |
From | Imperial Vodka and Pimm's Party | To | Debating the Act of Succession | | Message | ooc: I don't like Presbytery, a presbytery IRL is comparable to a parish, a very small area of land. We definitely shouldn't change the HoS to Emperor if we're not going to change to hereditary. |
| Date | 12:26:36, August 03, 2007 CET |
From | Luthori Tory Party | To | Debating the Act of Succession | | Message | [OOC: "Erzkanzler" means "Archchancellor" in German - a position that was similar to PM in the HRE, I believe...] |
| Date | 16:00:14, August 03, 2007 CET |
From | Imperial Vodka and Pimm's Party | To | Debating the Act of Succession | | Message | ooc: I quite like Viceroy, no one else uses that. Not that they use Erzkanzler either, but we're not a German nation like Dundorf. What does everyone else think? |
| Date | 16:08:13, August 03, 2007 CET |
From | Luthori Tory Party | To | Debating the Act of Succession | | Message | OOC: I could translate it, if you prefer, but it's really just a suggestion...I'm not especially bothered by what the HoG calls himself.... |
| Date | 16:43:34, August 03, 2007 CET |
From | Covenanters (IA) | To | Debating the Act of Succession | | Message | ooc: Calling our HoG the Holy Luthori Emperor's Viceroy (or Holy Luthori Emperor's anything) adds to our Imperial stock. If we were to look at our history for alternatives they would include Consul, Chief Minister, Lord Chancellor, and First Lord of the Treasury. Any of these could be resurrected with a "Holy Luthori Emperor's" prefix, or perhaps we could consider a modification of the original HoS title (Consul) for HoG in the form "Holy Luthori Emperor's Counsel"? |
| Date | 00:57:27, August 04, 2007 CET |
From | Covenanters (IA) | To | Debating the Act of Succession | | Message | Might I suggest we include an article to change the name of the Empire to the "Holy Luthorian Empire of Artanian Nations" and add to HSM, the Holy Luthori Emperor's full (Luthorian) titles claims on Beitenyu (King of New Jerusalem), (Lord of) Kazalia , (King of) Hustria and Ikradon (Emperor of all Artania and Artanians beyond the Seas)? |
| Date | 11:12:16, August 05, 2007 CET |
From | Covenanters (IA) | To | Debating the Act of Succession | | Message | Due to the latest election result we should put these changes on hold for now: we wouldn't want an Emperor Henry Clay, would we?
I'd also like to see the bill name changed as the Empire was never disestablished: the International Monarchist League formally recognises the HLE as a constitutional monarchy, and doesn't recognise certain countries using the 'The Head of State is hereditary and symbolic; the Head of Government chairs the cabinet' model along with communist style titles for their heads of state. |
| Date | 02:13:14, August 06, 2007 CET |
From | Imperial Vodka and Pimm's Party | To | Debating the Act of Succession | | Message | ooc: For the official title, I'd like: His Serene Majesty, the Holy Emperor, servant of God, Emperor of Artania, King of the Luthori.
The original Holy Roman Emperors used Imperator Augustus, at varying points the Empire was the Roman Empire, the Holy Roman Empire and the Holy Empire, and later the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation. I'd like to see the contraction to Holy Emperor and the addition of the title King of the Luthori because HR Emperors were first elected King of the Germans by 5 Electors.
What we do is this: give the ceremonial rulers of the 5 regions of Luthori a title: Duke of Geharon, King of Tinako etc. (West Riding: if you could grant these titles in order that they be historically accurate that would be great) and we name the regions the 'Imperial Estates', as this was what all parts of the HRE whose rulers had no one above them but the Emperor.
I'd like 'servant of God' because 'Defender of the Faith' is a relatively recent title and one not taken by Holy Roman Emperors. Otto III took 'servant of Jesus Christ', but I think 'servant of God' is better for our purposes. Otto III was also 'Emperor of the World' but I think 'Emperor of Terra' doesn't sound very good, but based on our previous claims to Artania Emperor of Artania is probably better. I suggest we drop all the other titles, because his claim to those is implicit and they're probably held by his Electors anyway.
I suggest we then establish in a bill (for the first time, we'll pretend, what is tradition) the system of election. Whereby the Holy Emperor's heir is elected by the leaders of the five Imperial Estates to be King of the Luthori, and then crowned Holy Emperor by the Arch-Bishop or whatever of the Church of Luthori. He then crowns himself Emperor of Artania and declares himself the servant of God. How's that?
(Holy Luthori Emperor will still be perfectly acceptable and the main way to reference the Holy Emperor of Artania ;-))
I don't want to use 'Luthorian', because the proper name for the Luthori people must be Luthori. Holy Roman, Holy Luthori. So Luthori is the multiple (it's possible Luthorian is also acceptable, like Britons and British). |
| Date | 12:53:01, August 06, 2007 CET |
From | Luthori Tory Party | To | Debating the Act of Succession | | Message | OOC: OK. I suggest he is crowned by leaders of both the CofL and the LCC, too. Signifying something or other.
I feel the repetition of "Emperor" is a little unnecessary, as well as the definite article in "King of the Luthori" - removing it it would then mean both king of the nation and king of the people. Perhaps also make it "His Most Serene Majesty"? Sort of like the Spanish title of "His Most Catholic Majesy", only not...?
And the HoG? Imperial Archchancellor? Viceroy sounds as though he can't govern for himself.... |
| Date | 16:41:49, August 06, 2007 CET |
From | Imperial Vodka and Pimm's Party | To | Debating the Act of Succession | | Message | ooc: Well he can't govern for himself ;-) How about the HoG be a Prince of the Empire? The title could just be 'Prince', and instead of His Excellency the Viceroy it would be His Highness Prince so-and-so or His Highness the Prince of the Empire.
I'd also like to stick with His Serene Majesty, that was the title used, and Most Catholic makes sense but Most Serene doesn't really. King of 'the' Luthori is important because the nation is the Holy Luthori Empire and the people are the Luthori. He's elected as King of the Luthori as part of a tradition from before the Holy Luthori Empire, as were Holy Roman Emperors elected as King of the Germans and not King of Germany, because there was no country of Germany. |
| Date | 22:59:21, August 06, 2007 CET |
From | Covenanters (IA) | To | Debating the Act of Succession | | Message | What we have lost with the new title is a viable Latin/Old Oalapan translation. For "By the Grace of God, Holy Luthori Emperor, Defender of the Faith" we have "Die Gratia, Sacrum Luthorum Imperator, Fidei Defensor" but I don't know of any examples of these new titles to find Latin translations from.
Also, the Holy Emperor should be coronated by the head of the national church, not a foreign church with a foreign pope at its head. Such a thing would be a challenge to the very sovereignty of the Holy Empire.
How about a name change to "Holy Artanian Empire of the Luthori Nation". Speaking of which I should explain Luthori/Luthorian. We used to be the "Commonwealth of Luthori" with an "Imperial" prefix later added by meself. When I proposed the change to Holy Empire I was pushing for "Holy Lutheran Empire" - but certain parties found this too protestant and argued the correct word is "Luthorian" due to our currency being the Luthorian Pound. I believe the national anthem also uses Luthorian, but all these can be changed with a 2/3 majority, I think... |
| Date | 05:16:58, August 07, 2007 CET |
From | Imperial Vodka and Pimm's Party | To | Debating the Act of Succession | | Message | ooc: Sacrum Imperator, servum Divinus, Rex Luthorum? 'servum Divinus' I, um, guessed. From servus and 'res divina', the service of the Gods. In 'Die Gratia' where comes the usage of Die? From later Latin?
It's apparent that Luthorian and Luthori are both acceptable, it would be silly to have called ourselves the equivalent of the Holy Germany Empire or the Holy Britain Empire for the past three centuries. I particularly don't like Holy Artanian Empire of the Luthori Nation, it's closer to what the Holy Roman Empire was later called but that's a translation, after all, and unwieldy. |
| Date | 05:17:59, August 07, 2007 CET |
From | Imperial Vodka and Pimm's Party | To | Debating the Act of Succession | | Message | ooc: I was also wrong, His Serene Majesty/Highness is a mistranslation from German, but that doesn't matter. His Serene Majesty sounds better than His Serenity. |
| Date | 11:27:58, August 07, 2007 CET |
From | Luthori Tory Party | To | Debating the Act of Succession | | Message | ooc: servum Dei (servus servorum dei being a title of the Holy Father - "servant of the servants of god"). 'servum Divinus' is just servant of Divine Things....I agree, the title of Holy Artanian Empire of blah blah is unwieldy. Are we going for Latin or English? |
| Date | 15:00:24, August 07, 2007 CET |
From | Covenanters (IA) | To | Debating the Act of Succession | | Message | [ooc: King Edward VII was only King of the United Kingdom and the title Emperor was reserved only for India. His signature, however, was Edward RI, standing for Rex-Imperator. We could perhaps follow a similar tradition where the Luthori King is Emperor of all Artanians (wherever they are in Terra - i.e. Emperor of all white people) and could use Rex-Imperator.] |
| Date | 15:34:06, August 07, 2007 CET |
From | Luthori Tory Party | To | Debating the Act of Succession | | Message | [OOC: Why stop at Artania? We could add IOT after his name - "Imperator Omnis Terri"] |
| Date | 19:05:54, August 07, 2007 CET |
From | Imperial Vodka and Pimm's Party | To | Debating the Act of Succession | | Message | ooc: So we're diverging from the Holy Roman Empire then? Although Otto III took Emperor of the world. What we could say is that the Imperator Omnis Terri (not Terra?) comes from the days when the people of Luthori thought Artania was the world.
The full style and title in English: HSM The Holy Luthori Emperor, servant of God, Emperor of All Terra, King of the Luthori
Latin: Sacrum Imperator, servum Dei, Imperator Omnis Terri, Rex Luthorum
or would you prefer Rex Luthorum before Imperator Omnis Terri?
HOG: English: His Highness the Prince of the Empire
Latin: Princeps Sacrum Luthorum (or if you prefer, Princeps Imperium)
Children of the Holy Luthori Emperor will also be Princes but carry the title His Serene Majesty, Kings underneath the Emperor: His Illustrious Majesty, Princes underneath the Emperor: His Highness, Dukes, Grand Dukes and Arch-dukes underneath the Emperor: His Grace, His Illustrious Grace or His Illustrious Highness. |
| Date | 20:39:56, August 07, 2007 CET |
From | Covenanters (IA) | To | Debating the Act of Succession | | Message | [ooc: We always maintained a very British feel, despite the Holy Empire name, rather than pedantically following the HRE.] |
| Date | 12:29:18, August 08, 2007 CET |
From | Luthori Tory Party | To | Debating the Act of Succession | | Message | OOC: Need to check the endings, but I'll do that later. For now, I suggest the following:
HoS: His Serene Majesty [x] The Holy Luthori Emperor of All Terra, Servant of God, King of the Luthori
HoG: His Highness Imperial Prince [x]
Where [x] is the name of the candidate. I suggest the current HoG (Edward II) for the job. We can then say that Ikradonian spies killed Richard II, and wage war on/conquer Ikradon! |
| Date | 15:10:53, August 08, 2007 CET |
From | Covenanters (IA) | To | Debating the Act of Succession | | Message | [ooc: The game mechanics don't allow part of the title to come after the name like that. Either Edward changes his name to "Edward II, of the Luthori, King, Emperor of Terra, Servant of God" and we hope he winds the next election, or we find a way to cram it all in before his name.] |
| Date | 15:15:52, August 08, 2007 CET |
From | Covenanters (IA) | To | Debating the Act of Succession | | Message | [ooc: I'd prefer "His Serene Majesty, King of the Luthori, Emperor of Artania, Lord of all Terra, Servant of God [x]"] |
| Date | 15:18:07, August 08, 2007 CET |
From | Luthori Tory Party | To | Debating the Act of Succession | | Message | [OOC: That sounds OK but shouldn't there be a "the" before "King"? Something about that doesn't feel quite right....] |
| Date | 16:49:58, August 08, 2007 CET |
From | Imperial Vodka and Pimm's Party | To | Debating the Act of Succession | | Message | ooc: Yeah I meant for that to be the Wiki/official title. The in-game title can just be 'His Serene Majesty, The Holy Luthori Empror so-and-so |
| Date | 16:53:04, August 08, 2007 CET |
From | Luthori Tory Party | To | Debating the Act of Succession | | Message | OOC: That's much less cumbersome. Perhaps in game, we could have "His Serene Majesty, The Holy Luthori Emperor of All Terra [InsertNameHere]"? That way we can show the full extent of his authority etc in a snappier manner.... |
| Date | 01:45:37, August 09, 2007 CET |
From | Covenanters (IA) | To | Debating the Act of Succession | | Message | ooc: Aye, that last one sounds good. Not sure about all the capitalisation though... |
| Date | 15:06:51, August 09, 2007 CET |
From | Covenanters (IA) | To | Debating the Act of Succession | | Message | [ooc: "His Serne Majesty, the Holy Luthori Emperor of all Terra [name] [numeral]". I also feel the bill should be renamed "Act of Succession" and the description should mention Richard II's murder at the hands of Valruzia and legislate for the succession of Edward Pimm as Edward II. |
| Date | 15:20:58, August 09, 2007 CET |
From | Luthori Tory Party | To | Debating the Act of Succession | | Message | ooc: "Imperial Consul" I thought made a nice intermediate stage, and also, indicates the legitimate succession of government from the ancient Commonwealth... |
| Date | 17:08:49, August 09, 2007 CET |
From | Covenanters (IA) | To | Debating the Act of Succession | | Message | [ooc: Valruzia are attempting a naval blockade of Delteria: it gives us a nice excuse to break it.
"Imperial Consul" does indeed link back to the early wet Commonwealth. I believe, however, that "Emperor's Counsel" wold be more fitting with our current regime.] |
| Date | 17:53:10, August 09, 2007 CET |
From | Covenanters (IA) | To | Debating the Act of Succession | | Message | ooc: We should also change the motto due to the change of Imperial title. I'd like to suggest "Strength through unity; unity through faith" or a return to "In hoc signo vinces" (In this sign, conquer). |
| Date | 18:03:16, August 09, 2007 CET |
From | Covenanters (IA) | To | Debating the Act of Succession | | Message | ooc: We should also change the motto due to the change of Imperial title. I'd like to suggest "Strength through unity; unity through faith" or a return to "In hoc signo vinces" (In this sign, conquer). |
| Date | 11:11:23, August 10, 2007 CET |
From | Luthori Tory Party | To | Debating the Act of Succession | | Message | OOC: Emperor's Counsel and "in hoc signo vinces" it is. Valruzia...Will be no more, soon.] |
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