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Bill: In Support of Industry
Details
Submitted by[?]: Imperial Cildanian Egoists
Status[?]: defeated
Votes: This is an ordinary bill. It requires more yes votes than no votes. This bill will not pass any sooner than the deadline.
Voting deadline: December 2451
Description[?]:
| RESOLVED: That our nation should not adhere to harmful doctrines which impede the flow of industry. |
Proposals
Article 1
Proposal[?] to change The government's policy concerning child labour.
Old value:: Child labour is allowed, but with additional regulations to those of adult labourers.
Current: Child labour is allowed, but with additional regulations to those of adult labourers.
Proposed: Child labour is allowed and unregulated; adult labour laws do not apply.
Article 2
Proposal[?] to change Government policy towards labor unions.
Old value:: Trade unions may exist and worker membership is voluntary.
Current: Only government-run trade unions exist and membership in them is compulsory.
Proposed: Trade unions are illegal.
Article 3
Proposal[?] to change The government's policy concerning the export of weapons to other nations.
Old value:: The government allows conventional arms to be exported freely.
Current: The government allows all arms to be exported freely.
Proposed: The government allows all arms to be exported freely.
Debate
These messages have been posted to debate on this bill:
| Date | 22:30:43, September 05, 2007 CET | From |  Imperial Cildanian Egoists | To | Debating the In Support of Industry |
| Message | We must strive to obtain a more reasoned position on these issues. As to Article I: There is no reason that children should not be allowed to be fully productive members of society. Regulation interferes with the efficient function of the market, and should be discouraged at all times. As to Article II: Unions are the enemy of industry, and industry is the lifeblood of the nation. Such extortionist organizations should be banned as a lesson to those who would seek to hold hostage the economy for their own ends. As to Article III: Interference in the market should not be tolerated on this matter. In restricting these exports we cut our nation off from a significant source of wealth. |
| Date | 23:46:10, September 05, 2007 CET | From | War is Peace Party | To | Debating the In Support of Industry |
| Message | What good is blood if it does not transport oxygen? Without unions none of the benefits of industry will benefit the people. |
| Date | 23:56:35, September 05, 2007 CET | From | Imperial Cildanian Egoists | To | Debating the In Support of Industry |
| Message | "The people"? A very large portion of the population, quite possibly a significant majority, work in non-union jobs. Everyone benefits from the lower prices which will result from removing the power of mass extortion from these fringe ideological extremists. A stable work force which realizes it cannot manipulate the system to extract more than is its due will contribute to a stable and thriving economy, to the benefit of all who consume. |
| Date | 00:33:30, September 06, 2007 CET | From | War is Peace Party | To | Debating the In Support of Industry |
| Message | To bad only a small percentage of the population will be able to consume. |
| Date | 00:35:24, September 06, 2007 CET | From | War is Peace Party | To | Debating the In Support of Industry |
| Message | Also: "fringe ideological extremists" is a bit of a Pot calling the Kettle black statement. |
| Date | 01:00:22, September 06, 2007 CET | From | Imperial Cildanian Egoists | To | Debating the In Support of Industry |
| Message | Small percentage? Perhaps a small percentage in the poor area of a highly urbanized city. Most who do not live in large cities are not in unions. Most who do live in large cities (and whose jobs could not easily be filled by importing labor from poorer nations) do not belong in unions. Everyone consumes. |
| Date | 01:41:22, September 06, 2007 CET | From | Justice League of Cildania | To | Debating the In Support of Industry |
| Message | The initial purpose of the labor union is valid, that of collective negotiating. However much of the current iterations of unions, as monsterous mob pressure groups, are actually the consequence of such groups being able to influence lawmakers. Create a system of law that bars such pressure, and unions lose their ability to 'extort' and 'hold industries hostage'. The extra regulation in child labor only refers to the reduced ability of children to reason and make decisions, protecting the child from coercion that an adult would be immune to. |
| Date | 03:29:12, September 06, 2007 CET | From | Imperial Cildanian Egoists | To | Debating the In Support of Industry |
| Message | We are left unsure; do you underestimate the capacities of children, or overestimate those of adults? The party must oppose all regulation. Individuals are free not to work for an industry if they find the conditions unacceptable, and if a child is of an age that renders his decision making capacity less, a responsible parent would be paying enough attention to offer guidance. As for the children of irresponsible parents, better they be working, even for a "raw deal", than be unsupervised on the street training to be hooligans. |
| Date | 04:21:53, September 06, 2007 CET | From | War is Peace Party | To | Debating the In Support of Industry |
| Message | Yes cause them being hooligans would be much worse than them losing fingers in your unregulated factories for ten cents a week. |
| Date | 04:49:38, September 06, 2007 CET | From | Imperial Cildanian Egoists | To | Debating the In Support of Industry |
| Message | Indeed it would. Though your example is unrealistically extreme. Such a situation would eventually come to the public attention, at which point (if the public agreed that fingerless children are to be avoided) would boycott the business until conditions were improved. Thus does the market prevail. As the idea that the initial purpose of labor unions is valid, it most certainly is not. The very concept of collective negotiation is one which should be repugnant to any individualist or capitalist, or any simple believer in the concept of merit. There are a maximum of two classes of individual in any union: those who deserve a raise, and those who do not. When negotiation between employee and employer is collective, then inevitably if a raise is granted, those whose work earned them a raise will receive a lower one than they should have, with the rest of their fair share being granted to the undeserving. Also, if the demands of the union are completely unreasonable, and the worthy workers stand united with the unworthy, then the employer could be forced to fire the worthy, depriving them of jobs, in order to get rid of the worthless who have shown they do not deserve them. |
| Date | 09:25:13, September 06, 2007 CET | From | Marxist-Leninist Happiness Front | To | Debating the In Support of Industry |
| Message | The very concept of collective negotiation is one which should be repugnant to any individualist or capitalist. Many workers find individualists and capitalists repugnant. Which is why unions will form regardless. Of course such unions usually are non-revolutionary shams that are mere tools of the system. The question for you "individualist" and "capitalists" is how soon do you want your revolution? The social democrats put off their day of reckoning by pretending to be socialists and trying to make the workers somewhat happy. Then you have your large capitalists and fuedal barons who have no desire show anything but an uncaring face to their workers. Those lands are rife with revolution and discord. And there lies a certain irony. By opposing our goals you are in many ways our biggest ally in bringing the hour of true revolution. When there shall be a ruthless and thorough accounting for all those who have opposed the liberation of Cildania's workers. |
| Date | 09:27:12, September 06, 2007 CET | From | Marxist-Leninist Happiness Front | To | Debating the In Support of Industry |
| Message | The very concept of collective negotiation is one which should be repugnant to any individualist or capitalist. Many workers find individualists and capitalists repugnant. Which is why unions will form regardless. Of course such unions usually are non-revolutionary shams that are mere tools of the system. The question for you "individualist" and "capitalists" is how soon do you want your revolution? The social democrats put off their day of reckoning by pretending to be socialists and trying to make the workers somewhat happy. Then you have your large capitalists and fuedal barons who have no desire show anything but an uncaring face to their workers. Those lands are rife with revolution and discord. And there lies a certain irony. By opposing our goals you are in many ways our biggest ally in bringing the hour of true revolution. When there shall be a ruthless and thorough accounting for all those who have opposed the liberation of Cildania's workers. |
| Date | 18:14:57, September 06, 2007 CET | From | Imperial Cildanian Egoists | To | Debating the In Support of Industry |
| Message | If your revolution comes, you will reap what you have sown, and will deserve the consequences. Successful communism is a myth, disproven by history. All nations which have embraced it have failed spectacularly. The most successful has been China, and their success has rested on sacrificing all sense of humanity and individuality, rendering the citizens nothing but drones working for the machine of the state. If your individuality is crushed, your uniqueness and potential for greatness stripped from you, then you are no longer human, merely an advanced enough ape to make use of mechanical tools. |
| Date | 00:35:35, September 07, 2007 CET | From | Marxist-Leninist Happiness Front | To | Debating the In Support of Industry |
| Message | First of all the myth of communism never working is the lies put out by media controlled by the bourgeoisie. If you read the revolutionary press you will see those lies are completely wrong. Al'Badara and other nations have had communist governments. Perhaps not exactly to our liking. Perhaps filled with all types of vile revisionism. But still made up of members of the communist movement. Second what we are in favor is different. The truest and most effective form of communist is that advanced by Dear Leader Faruz Absalom and and known as Faruz Thought. Absolute obedience to his thoughts and teachings have brought countless numbers to the most correct and orthodox notions of socialism. As for your rantings about individuality. Just the musings of the old soon to be extinct bourgeois class. Hopefully our planned vast network of psychiatric hospitals and re-education camps will be enough to bring those tainted with it into ideological correctness. |
| Date | 02:37:00, September 07, 2007 CET | From | Imperial Cildanian Egoists | To | Debating the In Support of Industry |
| Message | Ah. I see. You are the lowest form of slaves, those who choose their slavery with eyes wide open. Obedience is the behavior of slaves. A man chooses. |
| Date | 04:28:09, September 07, 2007 CET | From | Imperial Cildanian Egoists | To | Debating the In Support of Industry |
| Message | Really, the party owes a debt of gratitude to the Communist forces which dominate this nation's government. You have shown to the people in your consistent refusal to support any bills supporting the individual or industry that for those who believe in such things this party shall be their only choice in the next election. Thank you. |
| Date | 07:13:00, September 07, 2007 CET | From | Marxist-Leninist Happiness Front | To | Debating the In Support of Industry |
| Message | Our goal isn't to win elections. Elections are just a tool in the revolutionary struggle. All revolutions in the end require armed struggle. As our Dear Leader says just as a flower requires water so too does the revolution require blood. Our revolution is a great strong oak tree that will require torrents of blood that will hopefully wash through all of Cildania. That is how you can tell the government isn't dominated by communists. |
| Date | 09:01:34, September 07, 2007 CET | From | Peoples Revolutionary Front | To | Debating the In Support of Industry |
| Message | This bill is anti-worker & completely unacceptable |
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Voting
| Vote | Seats | |||||
| yes | Total Seats: 0 | |||||
| no |
Total Seats: 358 | |||||
| abstain |
Total Seats: 0 |
| Random fact: Players are expected to behave in a courteous, co-operative manner and make a reasonable effort to act with the consent of all players involved, even where the rules do not make consent strictly necessary. In particular, players have a responsibility to take reasonable care that other players are not misinformed either about the role-play or the Game Rules. |
| Random quote: "Politics have no relation to morals." - Niccolo Machiavelli |