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Bill: Action- Gun licensing
Details
Status[?]: defeated
Votes: This is an ordinary bill. It requires more yes votes than no votes. This bill will not pass any sooner than the deadline.
Voting deadline: November 2454
Description[?]:
| Without regulations on who may purchase and use a firearm the government supports not only a perpetual climate of fear, but an unhealthy culture of violence. Without guards to prevent the ex-convict, clinicly unstable or politically violent from purchasing military weapony then open the door to gunmen, gang violence and revolution. This issue is a growing problem, the more the government strips all services of rehabilitation from the prisons, not for any moral or social reason but simple for the expediant of profit and profit alone, the more danger ex-convicts pose to society as no motive is retained for them to treat society and civilisation with the respect it deserves as they have received none themselves. Our police forces devolve into glorified gangs with the right to kill, and to carry excessive weapony. We turn turn our police force from an organisation of brilliant men and woman who acted to keep order in our society, hunt out the criminals around us and protect our people into a squabble or gun-fanatatics who view the people they exist to defend as their enemy and have adandoned their minds and rational thinking in favour of escalating violence, and fighting criminals by adopting every behavour they espie in their hunt. There is no reason for anyone to carry military class firearms, all they acheive is to make a dangerous situation fatal. |
Proposals
Article 1
Proposal[?] to change Ownership of guns by private individuals.
Old value:: Adult individuals are allowed to own and purchase guns freely.
Current: Adult individuals are allowed to own and purchase guns freely.
Proposed: Adult individuals may own guns under strict license conditions.
Article 2
Proposal[?] to change The nation's policy on the separation of the police and the military.
Old value:: A civilian police force is in place and the military may be called in to help in serious emergencies.
Current: A civilian police force is in place, backed up by the military.
Proposed: A civilian police force is in place and the military is not allowed to play any part in it.
Article 3
Proposal[?] to change The weapons used by police forces.
Old value:: Police officers may only carry standard firearms apart from specially trained firearms units.
Current: Police officers carry military-grade equipment.
Proposed: Police officers may only carry non-lethal weapons apart from specially trained firearms units.
Article 4
Proposal[?] to change Weapons allowed to private citizens.
Old value:: Citizens may own any type of weapon. They may be carried anywhere except as determined by the property owner.
Current: Citizens may own any type of weapon. They may be carried anywhere except as determined by the property owner.
Proposed: Only certain types of weapons may be owned by the general public, but these may be carried anywhere except as determined by the property owner.
Debate
These messages have been posted to debate on this bill:
| Date | 01:18:15, September 12, 2007 CET | From |  Imperial Cildanian Egoists | To | Debating the Action- Gun licensing |
| Message | Police force=brilliant men and women? You fascists really are disconnected from reality aren't you. |
| Date | 01:23:42, September 12, 2007 CET | From | Action | To | Debating the Action- Gun licensing |
| Message | The police force has been lax due to their dependance of firearms over intellect and the long run decline of the justice system in this nation. In nations where the duties of the police are still primarily investigitive, civil and clerical they police officers are among the best and the brightest. -Pilgrim |
| Date | 01:26:24, September 12, 2007 CET | From | Marxist-Leninist Happiness Front | To | Debating the Action- Gun licensing |
| Message | We'd be loath to place any restriction on gun ownership given the government that is in power. The people need to be well armed to resist. |
| Date | 01:29:21, September 12, 2007 CET | From | Action | To | Debating the Action- Gun licensing |
| Message | Which is one of the key justicfications of the Bill, from the mouth of the goblin himself, The Reds arm themselves against the government. -Tombs |
| Date | 03:10:28, September 12, 2007 CET | From | Imperial Cildanian Egoists | To | Debating the Action- Gun licensing |
| Message | The ability of the "Reds" to arm themselves is the price we must pay in order to ensure that if the Reds come to power, *we* will still have the arms to fight *them*. |
| Date | 03:35:08, September 12, 2007 CET | From | Action | To | Debating the Action- Gun licensing |
| Message | And what of the people? The value of human life, and the value of common sense lost by a gun-culture? -Haakon |
| Date | 04:46:34, September 12, 2007 CET | From | Imperial Cildanian Egoists | To | Debating the Action- Gun licensing |
| Message | Ownership of guns *is* common sense. The Individual has not only the right, but the obligation, to self-defense. The first mark of an irredeemably evil government is that they seek to take the guns away from the people. |
| Date | 05:04:41, September 12, 2007 CET | From | Action | To | Debating the Action- Gun licensing |
| Message | Few nations in the world have gun ownship as a right, and all of them are plagued with high gun crime rates, ineffective civilian police and far more cons than pros from their stance. In Nations were firearms are regulated all those who desire a weapon for legal reasons, and a few for illegal, do get their liscences. Guns which have no legal application are banned and the people are glad of it. the freedoms of Hunting, recreational shooting and defense are all still perfectly protected. And one does much less require a firearm for defense in states with firearms regulations as there is less of a threat from aggresive gun-owners. And i dispute the claim, as most nations have never had widespread unregulated firearms ownership. The first step on the road to international acceptance as a sane nation, and the first step to a better, safer society has always been to regulate and ristrict firearms. Quite possbility the straight out illegalisation of firearms is a step towards dictatorship, but history suggests that leaders who have banned weapons completely to the civilian population have tending to have already been quite far down the slippery pole of corruption and their nations on the brink of republician revolution.. |
| Date | 05:42:14, September 12, 2007 CET | From | Imperial Cildanian Egoists | To | Debating the Action- Gun licensing |
| Message | The first step to total tyranny and suppression of the Sovereign Individual has always been to regulate and restrict firearms. When firearms are regulated, the *only* people harmed are the honest citizens, as the criminals and social deviants seek to get their weapons in non-traceable ways, and regardless of the law always manage to get as much ordinance as they desire. Your proposals will impede the honest citizen's ability to defend himself against criminal or government oppression, thus increasing the ability of both to do harm. |
| Date | 06:25:56, September 12, 2007 CET | From | Action | To | Debating the Action- Gun licensing |
| Message | You are speaking as though the regulation was absolute, and you are acting as though we live in a dystopic world were man has no conscience of his own, beleives only in greed and his own violent urges, You act as though the people are monsters. In a society without a gun culture, the criminals will not so readily seek out guns, Those who do will de delt with by the Armed Defenders Unit, a section of the civilian police force, and the criminal is caught with minimum resistance or disturbance. In societies with a history of gun culture, The police turn up armed and the majority criminals are likewise armed. And more likely to fight it out rather than surrender. Firearms lead to escalation, making the world more dangerous rather than less so. -Pilgrim ------------------------ OOC- Remember, Cildania is a fictional setting which is Not America, does not carry all of americas faults and will not always seek the american result. In most of the democratic world, firearms are regulated and it is a decision of the majority and once which produces better results. ------------------------ |
| Date | 08:33:47, September 12, 2007 CET | From | Imperial Cildanian Egoists | To | Debating the Action- Gun licensing |
| Message | Your delusions are quite amusing. OOC: Remember, most countries in the world that have made it past a 19th century level of society (if that) are so socialist and anti-individual in nature as to be borderline communist. Europe is a failing continent, its native population slowly dying, and giving its people so much extra government paid vacation time that they import muslim workers to make up for the lack of productivity. As to decisions made by the majority, they come in two varieties most of the time: bad reasoning which led to bad decisions, and bad reasoning which through some miraculous serendipity led to a good result. No just government seeks to restrict citizens who have never been convicted of a felony from owning guns: and given the overabundance of laws classified as felonies (even in America), it is arguable that even a blanket prohibition on felons owning guns is unjust. In case I am being unclear, about 90% of the things my party and the JLC agree on in this simulation are what I honestly believe would be proper in the real world. That government governs best which governs least. |
| Date | 11:33:20, September 12, 2007 CET | From | Marxist-Leninist Happiness Front | To | Debating the Action- Gun licensing |
| Message | OOC: Just like I'm really a hardcore blood thirsty maoist stalinist communist.. okay maybe not. :D I don't like to get too much on a "real life" tangent since some of us are playing fanciful and extreme parties for a reason. It keeps the game lighter. But I'll just point out that culture is more of a factor in violent crime than gun ownership and even the media (Japan has a more violent media than the United States). Switzerland has wide gun ownership in many areas and really has no more or no less crime for a given demographic than other European countries with narrower gun ownership. Conversely the United States has always had a greater incidence of violent crime than most of europe going back to even before the American Revolution. America is just a more violent country. And it's worth noting that the incidence of violence differs very wildly among different demographics Before the 20th century white rural southern violent crime was far higher than northern white rural crime with similar gun ownership on both sides. In the later 20th century the US saw a collapse in southern white rural crime and an explosion in black urban crime. The reasons for that are completely independent of gun ownership. In Europe new demographics from immigration have brought new challenges. Comparing the US to Europe is comparing apples to oranges within the context of this debate. And of course doesn't really fit in within the context of the game besides perhaps saying different societies operate perfectly well with different systems of laws. IC: The way to reduce crime is to reduce the inequities of capitalism. When people are not hungry and oppressed there is less of a need for them to resort to crime and hooliganism. Gun violence is a symptom. Decadent western culture is a symptom. Capitalism is the disease. Our program of revolutionary action is the cure. |
| Date | 17:35:34, September 12, 2007 CET | From | Imperial Cildanian Egoists | To | Debating the Action- Gun licensing |
| Message | OOC: Not to mention, Canada actually has a higher guns/households ratio than the US, less crime though so you never hear about it. Also, the *perception* of crime in the US is much greater than the actual level of crime, probably due to the fact that media vultures salivate over death and destruction, never getting enough of talking about it, while any good news is quickly glossed over and abandoned. From watching the news you would think walking outside to get the newspaper in middle class white suburbia would be enough to get you shot, mauled by a stray bear, or struck by lightning. Also, a final OOC note before I get off my soapbox, part of the root cause of crime is the encouragement of the idea that society "owes" something to people. When you have a culture that encourages people to believe that the rich don't deserve what they have, and should be giving it to the poor, you encourage the poor to believe anyone with more than them is the enemy. This leads poor people who live in bad neighborhoods, when they decide the government isn't giving them enough, to (rather than trying to succeed in an "oppressive rich white man's society") turn to crime as a means of extracting from society the "fair share" that is "owed" to them. If media and cultural pulpit-pounders would just tell the *truth*, that with enough dedication to education and hard work, most individuals (with the obvious exception of those with limited mental capacity) can rise above their birth and achieve, if not great things, at least substantially better things than their parents before them. America used to be a country that focused on the "little guy" becoming the "big guy" through his own skill and effort. Now it is becoming more and more "european", never telling people "you can", when it can explain to them why they can't, and offer a sympathetic shoulder (while proposing government funding) rather than hope for a real future. |
| Date | 00:50:35, September 13, 2007 CET | From | Action | To | Debating the Action- Gun licensing |
| Message | OOC: In New Zealand one in three adults have a gun liscense, the police are unarmed and pistols and military arms are only avilible to collectors and ammunition for them is unavilible for import. There has only ever been one 'mad gunman' only the loose, on average two gun related crimes each year, if you dont count hunters mistaking their mates for deers. To get a gun liscense you need to be 16, pass a written test and have no former gun-convictions, violence or serious mental illness. The only person ive ever know who has had his liscense and his guns taken away from him is a man who walked into a police station with a rifle and a shotgun and told them to tell him where his sister-in-law was so that he could shot her seven times, and then wondered why he got arrested. Certain backgrounds in america, both ethnic and economic have always risticted acheivement, as they always will and always have, except in extreme circumstances which are unstable and short-term there will always be barriers for the 'little guy' becomming the 'big guy', In america a few little guys made it far enough to inspire hope and keep the stability of the system. the modern european system carries too many faults, mostly that it was last developed in germany during the 1930s and then combinded with Joseph-Savages Welfare Society and Roosevelt's New Deal and really hasnt been tweaked since. But the liberal views of political correctness and the Nanny state and its influence to halt industry in the interests of health and saftey hold back society. And the adaptation of it onto other societies is carried out for purely political and not economic reasons.\ IC. Article two states the the property owner has the right to prevent firearms being carried in their establishments. Surely you support that clause as it stands for the right of the individual to put up a sign on the shop door preventing dangerous and unnessacary artifacts being brought onto his property. Articles three and four protect the individual against the police by arming them only with the tools required to do their job and not weapons which have no non-military applications. Article One simply states that if one is required a gain a liscense, the test of which is mostly concerned on weither of not you know how to use the firearms, understand how to store them and what the saftey catch does. then sign a contract stating that you wont leave them loaded and unattened or within reach of unsupervised minors. The loss to liberty to the gun owner is so minor as to count for nothing, but the gain to society, the police and public saftey. One must present their liscense when purchasing weapons, an automatic database is kept on the firearms serial numbers so that when a firearm is discovered by the police at the sight of a crime it can be identified. |
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Voting
| Vote | Seats | ||||
| yes |
Total Seats: 31 | ||||
| no |
Total Seats: 281 | ||||
| abstain | Total Seats: 113 |
| Random fact: References to prominent real-life persons are not allowed. This includes references to philosophies featuring the name of a real-life person (eg. "Marxism", "Thatcherism", "Keynesianism"). |
| Random quote: "It all came from there." - Lech Walesa (pointing to a TV when a reporter asked him why communism fell) |