We are working on a brand new version of the game! If you want to stay informed, read our blog and register for our mailing list.
Bill: Reintroduction of the Death penalty
Details
Submitted by[?]: Communist Party of Hobrazia
Status[?]: defeated
Votes: This is an ordinary bill. It requires more yes votes than no votes. This bill will not pass any sooner than the deadline.
Voting deadline: October 2486
Description[?]:
| We believe that for some crimes imprisionment is not enough. Criminals who commit hideous acts of terrorism and murder should not be imprisioned and released back into society. It is the responsibility of the goverment to protect the people and this is the only way to ensure that these criminals don't return to our streets. Some may say that life sentences are the way to prevent criminals from returning to the streets however this provides another burden on the people of Hobrazia who are already forced to pay for these criminals who have little or no hope of rehabilitation to languish in prison. The death penalty will relieve this burden. |
Proposals
Article 1
Proposal[?] to change Government policy with respect to the death penalty.
Old value:: The death penalty is illegal and is never to be applied.
Current: The death penalty is illegal and is never to be applied.
Proposed: The death penalty is not applied, except for terrorism, treason and crimes against mankind.
Debate
These messages have been posted to debate on this bill:
| Date | 20:02:55, November 12, 2007 CET | From |  We Say So! Party | To | Debating the Reintroduction of the Death penalty |
| Message | We disagree. Executing anyone would place us as no better than the people we wish to stop, the only difference being that one is sanctioned revenge. Revenge is never a good enough reason to commit such an act and so we maintain our current position of life imprisonment. Current Hobrazian law does not allow for a persons release should they be found guilty of such heinous atrocities, but does make use of their labour. In this way a person is able to repay their debt to society. We would also point out that, no matter how slim the chance, there is always a risk of executing an innocent. With the current legislation, should the person be found innocent at a later date they can be released and properly assisted in returning to life outside prison, however if a person is executed and then found innocent we have murdered an innocent person, which is inexcusable. |
| Date | 20:40:51, November 12, 2007 CET | From | Communist Party of Hobrazia | To | Debating the Reintroduction of the Death penalty |
| Message | You say revenge we say justice. You are are trying to be moral on a subject in which morality should't be brought into account, the protection of our people. I believe that you indeed believe that you have the best interests of the people at heart. However the point that labour is a way to repay society for their hideous crimes is a bit far fetched. Also Hobrazian law states that everyone has the right to appeal so that if an inocent person is found guilty surely they will appeal and be released. A message must be sent to the enemies of our people that their crimes will not be tolerated and they will be punished accordingly. |
| Date | 21:55:16, November 12, 2007 CET | From | We Say So! Party | To | Debating the Reintroduction of the Death penalty |
| Message | We, obviously, disagree. We understand the position of the CPoH and accept that they are doing what they believe to be right but we argue that morals have to be involved in this argument. Whilst we accept that morality is "in the eye of the beholder" and as such different for different people and groups, but for us to accept state sponsored murder is unjustifiable. Justice can only be brought if the person is guilty, but murder is murder, and the possibility of executing an innocent person is too great to justify such "justice". There is also the point that execution has never been a workable deterrent at any time in history, banishing actually is, historically speaking, a far better deterrent. There is also, to ignore morals for the moment, the economic argument. Execution is expensive with no return for society whereas, comparatively, maintaining a person for the rest of their life and having them work is cost effective. We agree that a message must be sent that crimes will not be tolerated, but executing people for crimes is in and of itself an inexcusable position. It does not provide acceptable justice versus the risk of executing an innocent. If we execute someone, what makes us better than the person(s) who we are executing. |
| Date | 22:04:21, November 12, 2007 CET | From | Partai Komunis Hobrazia | To | Debating the Reintroduction of the Death penalty |
| Message | The death penalty is not justice. Execution is murder--how is it not? It is the cold-blooded killing of a defenseless man who possibly is innocent. You can never be completely sure. |
| Date | 22:10:11, November 12, 2007 CET | From | Communist Party of Hobrazia | To | Debating the Reintroduction of the Death penalty |
| Message | So are the PKH trying to insinuate that our legal system isn't working and to answer the WSSP whats more expensive executing an enemy of the people or providing food and accomadation amongst other things for the rest of his or her natural life. Also murder is not murder when it is justified that is what makes us different from those who re being executed. |
| Date | 22:23:34, November 12, 2007 CET | From | We Say So! Party | To | Debating the Reintroduction of the Death penalty |
| Message | Murder can never be justified and attempting to justify it makes the position ever worse. Many people murder if they believe they have justification, but those same people would be brought before our courts and found guilty of crimes which, under the system the CPoH proposes, would execute them under the same pretences. In regards execution vs accommodation et al, dependent upon the work carried out there is a much higher return on initial outlay in providing work then there is in executing the individual. There is also, and we stand by this, the ability of repayment of debt to society which execution does not have. Our legal system is designed to provide justice not to provide for peoples blood lust. Execution does not provide justice merely short term revenge leaving all empty. |
| Date | 22:34:22, November 12, 2007 CET | From | Communist Party of Hobrazia | To | Debating the Reintroduction of the Death penalty |
| Message | You say murder can not be justified, Then what is your mandate on national defense. In the case of war our nations forces will have to "murder" many people yet judgeing by what you said this cannot be justified. We are not saying execute all criminals merely the ones which represent the greatest threat to the people. There is an ongoing war on crime and the enemies of our nation so in some cases as in all wars "murder" as you see it is perfectly justifiable. |
| Date | 22:48:05, November 12, 2007 CET | From | We Say So! Party | To | Debating the Reintroduction of the Death penalty |
| Message | Our position on national defence is simple, do whatever is necessary to protect Hobrazia and its people. Whilst we find certain parts of this position distasteful it is a requirement to maintain the security of this nation. This is different from state sponsored execution as in order to be executed the person or persons in question have already been captured. Using your argument, this would be the equivalent of executing prisoners of war, something we do not support. |
| Date | 22:57:18, November 12, 2007 CET | From | Communist Party of Hobrazia | To | Debating the Reintroduction of the Death penalty |
| Message | We agree that one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter however that we are looking to execute terrorists, people who have no clear mandate or stragedy to further their aims and whos main objective is to inspire fear and terror in the local populace. An example of this difference would be the Oklamhoma bomber who killed hundreds of people for political reasons while having no clear stragedy to further his aims beyond mass murder of what can be desribed as a non military target. People like these can not be compared to other organisations such as the IRA a they have no clear stragedy or mandate with which to accomplish their supposed goals. |
| Date | 23:09:33, November 12, 2007 CET | From | We Say So! Party | To | Debating the Reintroduction of the Death penalty |
| Message | OOC: Please keep real world events out of this game, it ruins the "fun" part of it as some points can lead to aggressively heated arguments and insults. In this regard I would certainly dispute that the IRA had a mandate for murder. IC: Executing terrorists places us on the same plinth as the terrorists themselves and only allows those people to become martyrs for their cause rallying support that they otherwise might not get. |
| Date | 23:30:52, November 12, 2007 CET | From | Communist Party of Hobrazia | To | Debating the Reintroduction of the Death penalty |
| Message | Duly noted, real world events will be excluded from now on. We apoligise for any offence. Our point however is that while some prisioners can be classed as pows some however are cold blooded mass murderers who have no clear idea how to achieve their odjectives and who's only plan of action is the wholescale targeting of civilians rather than miliary targets. These individuals are not pows and should not be treated accordingly. |
| Date | 11:42:24, November 13, 2007 CET | From | Hobrazian Federalist Party | To | Debating the Reintroduction of the Death penalty |
| Message | The Communist Party seeks blood from the people. The people however will never stand for tyranny. |
| Date | 12:56:39, November 13, 2007 CET | From | Partai Komunis Hobrazia | To | Debating the Reintroduction of the Death penalty |
| Message | We are not trying to insinuate that the legal system isn't working, simply, in fact, that people can be wrong. Sometimes, the innocent are simply in the wrong place at the wrong time. |
| Date | 21:48:17, November 14, 2007 CET | From | Communist Party of Hobrazia | To | Debating the Reintroduction of the Death penalty |
| Message | We do seek blood from the people.Only the enemies of the people are to be punished in this manner and even then only the most dangerous of criminals. Yes it is true that people will not stand for tyranny and thats not our proposel, yet why would a party who tries to insinuate descrimination against another culture disagree with a policy for anti tyrannical reasons when it is the fundamental policy of that party is to descriminate and insite hatred to people of another culture. Now who is sounding tyrannical. |
| Date | 23:59:52, November 14, 2007 CET | From | Partai Komunis Hobrazia | To | Debating the Reintroduction of the Death penalty |
| Message | The Communist Party sounds the most tyrannical. You seek blood from the people? You were not elected to murder your constituents. |
| Date | 00:36:59, November 15, 2007 CET | From | Communist Party of Hobrazia | To | Debating the Reintroduction of the Death penalty |
| Message | No but it is our duty as Hobrazians to eliminate all threats to our society. Call it murder if you want but in the defence of our country we believe that morals and scruples can play no part and surely it is the people we wish this bill to execute who wish for blood from the people. The people must be defended from the enemies of freedom, justice and democracy and with this bill we wish to do so. |
| Date | 21:22:25, November 15, 2007 CET | From | Partai Komunis Hobrazia | To | Debating the Reintroduction of the Death penalty |
| Message | And doesn't jailing murderers solve the problem? Does not that eliminate the threat from society? Is it not possible to rehabilitate criminals into functioning members of society? Murder is not the only way to eliminate the threat of crime--we have prisons for a reason. Execution itself is an enemy of freedom, justice and democracy. Execution is the prevention of the right to live, it is the result of revenge and not justice, and the jury does not have a say in whether to jail or kill the accused, only a say in whether he is guilty or not guilty. |
subscribe to this discussion - unsubscribe
Voting
| Vote | Seats | ||||
| yes | Total Seats: 0 | ||||
| no | Total Seats: 162 | ||||
| abstain |
Total Seats: 238 |
| Random fact: You can view who's online (i.e. been active the last 10 minutes) at the bottom of the menu (either at the top or the side). |
| Random quote: "A proof is a proof. What kind of a proof? It's a proof. A proof is a proof. And when you have a good proof, it's because it's proven." - Jean Chretien (describing the level of proof about weapons of mass destruction that Canada required to join the Iraq War) |