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Bill: DSP.014.2502 (Census)
Details
Submitted by[?]: 帝国公明党 (Teikoku Kōmeitō)
Status[?]: passed
Votes: This bill is a resolution. It requires more yes votes than no votes. This bill will not pass any sooner than the deadline.
Voting deadline: March 2507
Description[?]:
| It has been several years since the last time we tried to establish a census. In that time we have made some slight alterations to our original submission. Age: -Under 18 -18 to 25 -26 to 45 -46 to 64 -65 and older Ethnicity: -Amerindian/Kli'kut -Asiatic/Gao-Showa -Black -Caucasian -Latino -Mixed -Other Gender: -Female -Herm. -In between -Male Households: -Family -Shared -Single Income (Annual): -Under 5,000 -5,001 - 10,000 -10,001 - 15,000 -15,001 - 25,000 -25,001 - 30,000 -30,001 - 50,000 -50,001 - 100,000 -Over 100,000 Language: -Davostana -English -French -Gao-Showan -Greek -Latin -Modern Sekowan -Normand -Other -Pailesian Marital Status: -Co-habitation -Domestic Partnership(s), -Married; ...Individual ...Multiple -Single. Religion: -Atheist -Agnostic -Bah' -Buddhism ...Modern ...Other ...Xenodharma ...Zen -Christianity ...Catholic ...Lutheran ...Methodist ...Non-denominational ...Other -Hinduism -Islam ...Other ...Shi'a ...Sunni -Jainism -Jewish -Native Beliefs -Other -Satanism -Shinto -Unitarian Universalism Sexuality: -Asexual -Autosexual -Bisexual -Heterosexual -Homosexual -Pansexual -Transsexual -Zoosexual At the passing of this bill a Census shall be conducted every ten years at the closest 5 or 10 year mark. |
Proposals
Debate
These messages have been posted to debate on this bill:
| Date | 06:46:48, December 17, 2007 CET | From | Sekowan Communist Party | To | Debating the DSP.014.2502 (Census) |
| Message | Why is Lutheranism separate from Protestantism? |
| Date | 06:54:20, December 17, 2007 CET | From | 帝国公明党 (Teikoku Kōmeitō) | To | Debating the DSP.014.2502 (Census) |
| Message | Because it is in itself a seperate sect of Chrisitanity, with a large enough population in Sekowo to be counted. |
| Date | 06:58:50, December 17, 2007 CET | From | Normand Pluralist Party | To | Debating the DSP.014.2502 (Census) |
| Message | Why not simplify gender to "male", "female", and "other"? Transgendered individuals might take offense at the list. At the same time, the "other" aspect is such a small portion of the population, it seems that making an exhaustive list of other genders would be rather unnecessary. We see no reason to separate Hispanic from Caucasian, additionally. Normand is a distinct language gaining in influence in Sekowo. We believe that it should be included as a separate entry in the list of languages (and not simply massed under "Other"). We believe, as well, that Lutheran should be listed under Protestant, and that an "Other" category should be Created under Christianity, to deal with restorationist branches of Christianity, as well as Orthodox branches, etc. Religion in general should include an "Other" designation, as well; there is currently no provision for Rastafarianism, Wicca, and many other religious viewpoints. We are not certain if it is helpful to inquire about the sexuality of individuals. Moreover, some individuals may consider themselves autosexual and something else. Furthermore, transexual is not a form of sexuality, but rather a form of gender. |
| Date | 07:11:16, December 17, 2007 CET | From | 帝国公明党 (Teikoku Kōmeitō) | To | Debating the DSP.014.2502 (Census) |
| Message | If either more than .5% of the population qualifies or the group is highly vocal we have included them. Further more Hispanic and Caucasian are wholly different Ethnicities. We consider Lutheranism a separate branch of Christianity, not part of Protestantism. As for sexuality. Autosexual is described as having no sexual attraction to animate objects, but rather to inanimate objects. Transsexual can be both a gender, as in they are in between surgeries etc and a sexuality, as in those who have retained some traits of one gender, which is different from natural Hermaphrodites who are naturally the way they are because of a genetic mistake while in the womb. OOC: This was the first draft, so the 'other' sections were'nt in it, since I added those in a later copy. I should also note I'm not considering Necrophilia as a sexuality because no organization, save those that support it actually consider it so. |
| Date | 07:24:15, December 17, 2007 CET | From | Normand Pluralist Party | To | Debating the DSP.014.2502 (Census) |
| Message | Why are Hispanic and Caucasian different? Hispanics and, say, Sicilians, have much more in common than Italians and Nordic folk. It is generally accepted that Lutheranism is the original Protestant sect. While we have no problem with them being listed specifically, we do not understand why they are not being placed under Protestantism. We still don't understand the need to poll about sexuality, and particularly to poll so specifically. Less than 10% of the population (we believe) are not heterosexual, and the vast majority of those are homo- or bi- sexual. We think it would be more worthwhile to include many of these together as "other". OOC: Who will determine the result of the census? |
| Date | 07:31:25, December 17, 2007 CET | From | Normand Pluralist Party | To | Debating the DSP.014.2502 (Census) |
| Message | OOC: Ah, we found the sexuality graphs on the Wiki. Phenomenally unrealistic, but I guess that's the point of the game, eh? |
| Date | 07:37:53, December 17, 2007 CET | From | 帝国公明党 (Teikoku Kōmeitō) | To | Debating the DSP.014.2502 (Census) |
| Message | OOC: Not really that unrealistic. No one really does census date for anything beyond Gay, Bi and Straight. So I've made the results based on my own studies and the culture of Sekowo. Thailand has a significant also. While there's never been an official worldwide census, for many obvious reasons, Homosexuality is thought to make up anywhere between 12 and 30 percent of the population. Asexuals are though to make up about 1% of the overall population. Personally I consider everyone either Asexual or Bisexual myself. |
| Date | 07:41:51, December 17, 2007 CET | From | 帝国公明党 (Teikoku Kōmeitō) | To | Debating the DSP.014.2502 (Census) |
| Message | Thailand has a significant Transsexual population.* |
| Date | 08:00:30, December 17, 2007 CET | From | Normand Pluralist Party | To | Debating the DSP.014.2502 (Census) |
| Message | OOC: The vast majority of surveys, particularly the large ones, display homo- & bi-sexuality as less than 5% (for most countries and surveys, less than 3%) combined. Even the most extreme (excluding the Kinsey report, which has been generally discounted by statisticians and scientists for including, among other bizarre demographic trends, 25% sex offenders) list the two as a combined 15% or less (these surveys usually ask the question of "have you ever had a bi- or homo-sexual experience?"). Here's a smattering of studies: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_sexual_orientation Anyway, I can see the information in this census being used to drive political agendas, and I certainly see a DSP bias in the current statistics. For that reason, I propose that a more neutral fashion of determining census results be developed. |
| Date | 22:04:04, December 17, 2007 CET | From | Independence Coalition | To | Debating the DSP.014.2502 (Census) |
| Message | <quote=DSP>"We consider Lutheranism a separate branch of Christianity, not part of Protestantism."</> What you consider is irrelevant, facts are facts. Lutheranism is a school of protestant Christianity. --- Also, you have incorrectly conjugated many of the religions, including but not limited to: Atheism, Agnosticism, and Judaism. In addition, a Muslim is a practitioner of Islam, "Muslim" is not a religion. Next, Sexuality is none of the governments business. Also, Female is one set sex organs, Male is another set of sex organs, Hermaphrodite is both sets of sex organs, what exactly is "in between"? If you are referring to trans-gendered individuals they are identified by whatever set of sex organs they have. |
| Date | 22:22:48, December 17, 2007 CET | From | 帝国公明党 (Teikoku Kōmeitō) | To | Debating the DSP.014.2502 (Census) |
| Message | The term Protestant comes from a refusal of Lutheran princes to except a Catholic edict, therefore Lutheranism is equal to Protestantism in terminology as a distinct sect of Christianity. We are aware of the conjugation mistakes, the religions were listed by the most commonly used name not by the most grammatically correct one in referring to a person who believes in a specific thing. We are not producing full fledge lists of what everyone is sexually, however the general statistics on this are public knowledge and generally helpful in academic studies and policy making. Transgendered in the case of gender refers to those who are still in between, and that have not yet fully become whichever gender they are going through the procedures to become. |
| Date | 22:40:55, December 17, 2007 CET | From | Independence Coalition | To | Debating the DSP.014.2502 (Census) |
| Message | 1. Protestants are any followers of deviations of the Christian faith that originated with the doctrine of the reformation. Anyone who is a sect of Christianity that came after Luther's 95 thesis' is a protestant, the only exception being Mormon's for obvious reasons. 2. Show a little respect to others, refer to them properly. 3. That is acceptable. 4. If it's got male organs it's a male, if it's got female organs, it's a female. They tend to make a habit of leaving you without one or the other. Sorry, for numbers, but it makes it easier for me to follow my own thoughts. |
| Date | 23:29:44, December 17, 2007 CET | From | 帝国公明党 (Teikoku Kōmeitō) | To | Debating the DSP.014.2502 (Census) |
| Message | 1. Gishoto (the country we have northern border with) is a wholly Lutheran country (you can't gain citizenship if you're not Lutheran). We consider Lutheranism in this case different from Protestantism (which we're considering just general). 2. It's the most commonly used term and is not a negative one, so we see no problem with using it. Besides, Islamic is'nt exactly a good word anymore. 3. Ok than. 4. If it has both it's a Hermaphrodite. The point is that Transgender is when someone from one gender is currently in the process of becoming the other, and thusly during that time period that are Transgender. |
| Date | 02:46:15, December 18, 2007 CET | From | Sekowan Communist Party | To | Debating the DSP.014.2502 (Census) |
| Message | Feel free to subdivide Protestantism. However, include an "other" category for Restorationist or Orthodox church members. Just don't make Lutheranism entirely separate from Protestantism. As a sub-category, that's awesome. Otherwise, like I told you, you will look like an idiot if you don't. Also, "most commonly used term"? This makes no sense. Atheism and atheist are interchangeable, and it's just more professional to have everything conjugated correctly. Also, you can be Jewish and not follow Judaism. *then Why is a transitional period so freaking important? |
| Date | 03:15:13, December 18, 2007 CET | From | 帝国公明党 (Teikoku Kōmeitō) | To | Debating the DSP.014.2502 (Census) |
| Message | The DSP is a large LGBT rights supporter, and as such these things are very important to us. |
| Date | 09:06:53, December 18, 2007 CET | From | Normand Pluralist Party | To | Debating the DSP.014.2502 (Census) |
| Message | We still have (most) of our previous objections to this survey as listed. |
| Date | 05:55:17, December 19, 2007 CET | From | Sekowan Communist Party | To | Debating the DSP.014.2502 (Census) |
| Message | Thanks for responding to my whole set of objections. |
| Date | 03:22:23, December 20, 2007 CET | From | 帝国公明党 (Teikoku Kōmeitō) | To | Debating the DSP.014.2502 (Census) |
| Message | Alright, to better accomodate everyones problems, will everyone please in a clean numbered format list what objections they still hold. |
| Date | 06:56:20, December 20, 2007 CET | From | Normand Pluralist Party | To | Debating the DSP.014.2502 (Census) |
| Message | 1. Why are Hispanic and Caucasian different? Hispanics and, say, Sicilians, have much more in common than Italians and Nordic folk. 2. It is generally accepted that Lutheranism is the original Protestant sect. While we have no problem with them being listed specifically, we do not understand why they are not being placed under Protestantism. 3. We still don't understand the need to poll about sexuality, and particularly to poll so specifically. Less than 10% of the population (we believe) are not heterosexual, and the vast majority of those are homo- or bi- sexual. We think it would be more worthwhile to include many of these together as "other". 4. Normand needs to be included under language 5. Why not simplify gender to "male", "female", and "other"? Transgendered individuals might take offense at the list. At the same time, the "other" aspect is such a small portion of the population, it seems that making an exhaustive list of other genders would be rather unnecessary. 6. Under Islam, might as well list Sunni, Shi'ite, and Other |
| Date | 10:29:27, December 20, 2007 CET | From | 帝国公明党 (Teikoku Kōmeitō) | To | Debating the DSP.014.2502 (Census) |
| Message | 1. Nordic and Northern European are different than Mediterranean, and Caucasian refers to Nordic/North European in this case. 2. Since Protestantism came from Lutheranism we're classifying it as a separate religion as Protestantism represents many sects with different beliefs than the original. 3. The sexuality part is included because knowing the numbers (not names and exact info) is helpful in academic studies and policy making. Further more since we are the premier LGBT party, this is the one aspect we know more about than any other and therefore we are the best inclined to design the sexuality list (OOC: In essence this is the single part of the census in which my word is law, that is not negotiable.) 4. We have included it. (Thought I had already..) 5. Because there are only two other genders who make up enough, though small, to be listed separately. 6. Duly noted and done. |
| Date | 23:15:14, December 20, 2007 CET | From | Normand Pluralist Party | To | Debating the DSP.014.2502 (Census) |
| Message | 1. However, you don't list them separately. So list them separately, or don't list Hispanic separately, eh? 2. That's like classifying Christianity as separate from Catholicism. At one point in time, Protestantism=Lutheranism. 3. We still don't think that much detail is helpful (it's more likely to confuse many census takers). 4. Ok 5. Transgendered individuals may still take offense at this list. Moreover, many individuals may be quite uncertain if they are hermaphropditic or "in between", as there is no clear distinction between the two. Additionally, some individuals may take offense at being called "in between", as if they were somehow inferior to the named genders. 6. "Other" would still be nice, for obscure Islamic sects |
| Date | 02:19:22, December 21, 2007 CET | From | 帝国公明党 (Teikoku Kōmeitō) | To | Debating the DSP.014.2502 (Census) |
| Message | 1. We're going to rename Hispanic Latino, since it's more what we were going for. 2. Why is is so important it's listed as a sub-sub category. 5. Considering we are the premier LGBT party, we are aware what terms could be considered offensive. Beyond that there is a description next to the question explaining the differences. 6. While we're not sure if any other Islamic sects actually make up a large amount of Sekowans, we'll add it. |
| Date | 09:22:12, December 21, 2007 CET | From | Normand Pluralist Party | To | Debating the DSP.014.2502 (Census) |
| Message | 1. That doesn't really address our concerns, but ok. 2. Why is it so important to not list it as a subcategory? Everyone else here agrees that it should be one 5. That's an awfully bigoted view. We like to think we support LGBT culture and rights, as well, and our track record in that regard has actually not been any less generous than yours. |
| Date | 03:40:06, December 23, 2007 CET | From | 帝国公明党 (Teikoku Kōmeitō) | To | Debating the DSP.014.2502 (Census) |
| Message | OOC: The DSP is the premier party in such issues for two reasons. 1. I'm gay, and thusly, along with CeC more knowledgeable on things having to do with LGBT culture simply because I'm apart of it. 2. The DSP upper echelon is comprised mostly of LGBT peoples. If you fall into the same category, than we're willing to retract comments made. |
| Date | 06:23:43, December 23, 2007 CET | From | Normand Pluralist Party | To | Debating the DSP.014.2502 (Census) |
| Message | OOC: 1. Being gay doesn't mean you inherently know more about sexuality, though I would expect it would make you more aware of the gay community. Bestialists, for example, are regularly excluded from LGBT affairs. Moreover, your confusion about "normal" sexuality statistics is telling. I am not gay myself, but I work in one of the most liberal English Departments in the US, with a strong Queer Studies program (though our environmentalist faction is stronger). My direct supervisor is a lesbian, and I have every respect for her. I do not feel that being homosexual instantly makes anyone an expert on sexuality. Particularly more than people who have been involved in Queer Studies. |
| Date | 08:27:32, December 23, 2007 CET | From | 帝国公明党 (Teikoku Kōmeitō) | To | Debating the DSP.014.2502 (Census) |
| Message | 1. -A.You're correct, simply being LGBT would'nt, however I am part of the culture and am therefore more in tune to it than someone who is'nt, LGBT or otherwise. -B. Zoosexuals is the technical term, and beyond that I personally have no problem with it when it's with large animals, mind you I'm not into it myself, but that's getting beyond the point. -C. Sekowo exists on a similar but still different 'version' of Earth, and is therefore allowed to have differences that could exist today. Beyond that my personal beliefs on sexuality is that 98% of the population is Bisexual (to highly varying degrees) and the remaining 2% Asexual, that's of course generalizing to such an extent that all other sexualities (excluding Hetero and Homo) fit into those two. Also, who decided on the term 'queer studies', I mean I know more 'flamboyant' people tend to use it the same way black people have come to use the N word, but it's still an odd name, to me atleast. |
| Date | 09:09:17, December 23, 2007 CET | From | Normand Pluralist Party | To | Debating the DSP.014.2502 (Census) |
| Message | Don't ask me. But Queer Studies/Queer Theory is a name regularly used by academics (many of which are homosexual); indeed, my supervisor uses the term. It is considered a formal term. At any rate, your personal beliefs, which belie any sort of functional realistic background, should not absolutely dictate Sekowo. There are 8 of us here, and the only reasonable thing to do is to take 8 viewpoints into consideration when forming this sort of stuff. It would be fair to apportion demographics by vote to parties, or to simply divide everything up in a pure 1/8 (12.5%) to each party and let everyone give their own input, while letting parties simply not get involved in the process, if they prefer. BTW, google has about 4x the number of hits for "bestialists" as for "zoosexuals". What determines the "technical" term? (You may notice that Mirriam-Webster includes "bestiality" as in its standard dictionary, but not "zoosexuality") |
| Date | 09:28:56, December 23, 2007 CET | From | 帝国公明党 (Teikoku Kōmeitō) | To | Debating the DSP.014.2502 (Census) |
| Message | My personal beliefs are'nt dictating anything, I was just saying that there is a difference in what I believe and the data I've done for Sekowo. Also, Bestiality, when put into Wikipedia redirects to Zoosexuality. I suppose it's like the difference between the words Gay and Homosexual, one is a cultural term and the other a scientific term. |
| Date | 17:54:42, December 26, 2007 CET | From | Saiken Renmei | To | Debating the DSP.014.2502 (Census) |
| Message | We would also prefer Hellenic Polytheism be listed separately and not under 'Native Beliefs'. We believe it accounts for the largest share of the Sekowan population, since it is the official religion and there used to be 2 parties promoting it. Also we do not see why Shinjalans are not mentioned in the ethnicity list (they are the mostly commercial populations of Graeco-Roman culture living along the coastline). We think they could be included under 'Amerindian', since they are related to the Mayans in Lourenne (who should also be included). Otherwise, this list is fine. OOC: Names like 'Asian', 'Amerindian', 'Graeco-Roman' etc. refer to RL cultures, I think it would be best to avoid using them IC. |
| Date | 03:05:44, December 27, 2007 CET | From | 帝国公明党 (Teikoku Kōmeitō) | To | Debating the DSP.014.2502 (Census) |
| Message | Hellenic Polytheism was only ever popular in the Greco-Roman cultures of the coast. There is no official religion, Sekowo is secular. Shinjalans was an old term that referred to a large group of separate cultures (Olmec, Kli'kut etc.). OOC: We have French and Normand people, and real life cultures and religions are really the only aspects of the real world (beyond technology) that are allowed in the game. Also, in the cases of Asiatic and Amerindian, they are / names, more intended to inform people what ethnicotype the Kli'kut or Gao-Showa are. |
| Date | 03:09:56, December 27, 2007 CET | From | 帝国公明党 (Teikoku Kōmeitō) | To | Debating the DSP.014.2502 (Census) |
| Message | I'll add Helenic-Polytheism to the list though, perhaps you could propose and amendment to the census after it passes for that. |
| Date | 23:27:51, January 04, 2008 CET | From | Communist Party of Sekowo | To | Debating the DSP.014.2502 (Census) |
| Message | This census is a complete perversion. |
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Voting
| Vote | Seats | ||||
| yes | Total Seats: 333 | ||||
| no |
Total Seats: 107 | ||||
| abstain |
Total Seats: 287 |
| Random fact: Particracy does not allow role-play that seems to belong to the world of fantasy, science fiction and futuristic speculation. |
| Random quote: "Abolition of a woman's right to abortion, when and if she wants it, amounts to compulsory maternity: a form of rape by the State." - Edward Abbey |