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Bill: Collectivization
Details
Submitted by[?]: Saiserist League
Status[?]: defeated
Votes: This is an ordinary bill. It requires more yes votes than no votes. This bill will not pass any sooner than the deadline.
Voting deadline: April 2504
Description[?]:
| ... |
Proposals
Article 1
Proposal[?] to change Government policy on industry and subsidies to industrial operations.
Old value:: The government does not intervene in the market nor provide any form of subsidies/relief to industries.
Current: Certain industries are owned by the state, all others are under private ownership.
Proposed: All industry is owned and operated by the state.
Debate
These messages have been posted to debate on this bill:
| Date | 13:01:15, December 19, 2007 CET | From |  Order Of The Illuminati | To | Debating the Collectivization |
| Message | "If there was ever any doubt that the Revolutionary Socialist Party is heading in a totalitarian direction, this should serve to dispel that notion. Again, this shows lack of faith in the people of our great nation. They claim to be looking out for the workers and the oppressed, but all they want to do is babysit them and turn them into robots." - Sac Sultana II, Trade & Industry Critic "Any one entity having monopoly power such as this is a scary thing. They claim to have roots in Trotskyism, but this reeks of Stalin and his horrific, bloody bureaucratic nightmare of 'socialism in one country.'" - Melanaigis, ELF Party President "If this bill passes, we urge workers to rise up in a general strike and take matters into their own hands." - Doshgriss Fricasseedododoc, Protector-General candidate |
| Date | 13:08:36, December 19, 2007 CET | From | Saiserist League | To | Debating the Collectivization |
| Message | "We are not going to send millions of people to their deaths. We are not going to murder anybody who speaks out against us. We are not going to censor anybody. We are not Stalinist, we are Trotskyist. All industry must be government-owned so as to return it to the people. Industries should not be governed by capitalists, but by democratic councils of workers working cooperatively with one another. That is what workers need and workers want. Workers will not rise up to defend their tyrannical overlords, but will rise up in defense of their rights, which only public, not private, ownership can bring." -Daniel Vladimirovich Feterokov, Chairman of the Revolutionary Socialist Party |
| Date | 13:22:00, December 19, 2007 CET | From | Order Of The Illuminati | To | Debating the Collectivization |
| Message | "We have nothing against 'democratic councils of workers working cooperatively,' but that is not what you are proposing. This is classic doublespeak. You are proposing that industry be run by the state in the name of the workers. The ELF would support any worker-owned cooperative enterprises. Please do not insult the intelligence of the working masses by claiming you're doing this for them. This is so paternalistic." - Sac Sultana II, Trade & Industry Critic |
| Date | 13:29:03, December 19, 2007 CET | From | Saiserist League | To | Debating the Collectivization |
| Message | "Democratic councils of workers is another bill, mandating that all industries be run by democratic councils of workers. We have proposed it twice ourselves and voted for it when the Revolutionary People's Front proposed it. This bill is meant to cover the idea of 'working cooperatively'. As long as capitalists own industry workers will compete with one another when they should all be working together for the common good. That is the goal of this, by giving public mownership to all industries every worker will be working with each other, rather than against each other." -Daniel Vladimirovich Feterokov, Chairman of the Revolutionary Socialist Party |
| Date | 13:31:25, December 19, 2007 CET | From | Saiserist League | To | Debating the Collectivization |
| Message | 'Worker-ownership' and 'private/public' ownership are two separate issue in Particracy. 'worker-ownership/employer-ownership' is covered in the issue of DWC's. This issue is about 'private/public' ownership. |
| Date | 13:33:52, December 19, 2007 CET | From | Order Of The Illuminati | To | Debating the Collectivization |
| Message | "Doublespeak, doublespeak, doublespeak. ELF believes that workers have the right to self-organize in cooperatives, to own and control the means of production in cases where they purchase or start an enterprise, or a capitalist voluntarily gives it up. Your party is not for worker ownership or control, you are for state control, and, as I previously suggested, you are trying to fool the workers into believing they have some form of control, when in actuality all power will rest in the hands of the state. Shame on you for exploiting the workers! Shame!" - Sac Sultana II, Trade & Industry Critic |
| Date | 13:44:50, December 19, 2007 CET | From | Saiserist League | To | Debating the Collectivization |
| Message | "Shame on you, you soulless libertarians. You masquerade behind the idea of freedom whilst propping up the exploitative capitalists. Your utopia is a land of child laborers, fat factory owners, and long factory lines, where workers work hard to their death because they know in your world they are worth nothing, and there is an endless lines of these commodities, whcih human beings become, to replace the fallen. Worker-control and state-control go hand in hand, though obviously it can and has been abused. I do not envision state commisars walking through the industries abusing workers and setting quotas. That would be state capitalism. I envision a world in which all industries are bound together in mutual ownership, where the decisions of the industries themselves are undertaken by a democratic debate and vote by the workers, which you so direly oppose. We might remind you that you voted against the bill to establish worker-control of industries. The problem with only worker-ownership without state-ownership, which is possible because they are separate issues, is that the workers would still be competing against each other in separate parts of each industry. The workers of one factory would be plotting how to undermine the workers of another factory. That shoudl not happen, and must not happen." -Daniel Vladimirovich Feterokov, Chairman of the Revolutionary Socialist Party |
| Date | 14:07:23, December 19, 2007 CET | From | Order Of The Illuminati | To | Debating the Collectivization |
| Message | "The proposed bill from the ZRSP of December 2502 read 'The government requires all businesses to be run by Democratic Workers' Councils.' We responded with this statement: 'While the Erisian Liberation Front supports and encourages the creation of Workers' Councils, we do not believe that such entities should be legislated into existence, nor should they be funded. Workers' Councils need to be voluntary associations of working men and women in cooperation with one another, free from the corrupting influence of the state and government intervention.' Your goal is economic parity for workers through draconian legislation and government excess that stomps on the freedom of a large sector of our society. Our goal is freedom on the most fundamental level: we believe individuals and communities should be empowered to make their own decisions and chart their own futures without interference from government. Your bleak and pessimistic views of human nature are incompatible with the pursuit of happiness in our great country." - Melanaigis, ELF Party President |
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Voting
| Vote | Seats | ||||
| yes | Total Seats: 138 | ||||
| no |
Total Seats: 218 | ||||
| abstain |
Total Seats: 45 |
| Random fact: After 3 days (72 hours) your account will be inactivated by Moderation. If you want to be reactivated you can request reactivation located here: http://forum.particracy.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=4360 |
| Random quote: "If man asks for many laws, it is only because he is sure that his neighbor needs them; privately he is an unphilosophical anarchist, and thinks laws in his own case superfluous." - Will Durant |