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Bill: Likatonia-Lodamun Conflict
Details
Submitted by[?]: Judicial Union Party
Status[?]: passed
Votes: This bill is a resolution. It requires more yes votes than no votes. This bill will not pass any sooner than the deadline.
Voting deadline: September 2549
Description[?]:
There are growing tensions between two of our northern neighbours, Lodamun and Likatonia. If this continues, it could undermine the stability of Northern Seleya which would have a flow on effect to Tukarali, through trade among other things.
Likatonia announced plans to settle in Lodamun territory, although they contend it is part of Likatonia, per http://80.237.164.51/particracy/main/viewbill.php?billid=181076
Lodamun issued a declaration of war, following this, which will almost certainly pass: http://80.237.164.51/particracy/main/viewbill.php?billid=181243
Likatonia followed this by announcing plans to cut off diplomatic relations, and encouraging military readiness, per http://80.237.164.51/particracy/main/viewbill.php?billid=181288
This conflict is escalating rapidly. The question is, should Tukarali become involved, either through diplomatic means such as condemning one side or the other, sending peacekeepers to the area to guard civilians should armed conflict occur, ignore it and hope it goes away, or some other option. It is still early, so it is possible full scale war can be prevented. |
Proposals
Debate
These messages have been posted to debate on this bill:
| Date | 00:09:15, March 21, 2008 CET |
From | Tuatha Dé Danann | To | Debating the Likatonia-Lodamun Conflict | | Message | Protecting the innocent is always a primary goal in the NUA's eyes. Armed forces should be sent to ensure the safety of the civilians but not meddle in military conflicts between the 2 nations unless directly provoked by either side.
They should work things out between eachother, but not at the cost of civilians. We must protect them until a solution comes. |
| Date | 00:11:08, March 21, 2008 CET |
From | Tukarali Graenix Party | To | Debating the Likatonia-Lodamun Conflict | | Message | I don't want to jump to the gun, but Chancellor Evans-Oliver of our party and Minister Jason Fenwick of JUP need to lay out a plan to do something about this. |
| Date | 00:14:01, March 21, 2008 CET |
From | Judicial Union Party | To | Debating the Likatonia-Lodamun Conflict | | Message | That is true, but it is the opinion of our party that any action should have the authority of the Council. It is hard to determine who the aggressor is in this case, so any action we do undertake must be done with care. In light of that, should we be condemning one side or the other, or both, and should we issue a statement through the Ministry of Foreign Affairs doing so? |
| Date | 00:20:51, March 21, 2008 CET |
From | Tuatha Dé Danann | To | Debating the Likatonia-Lodamun Conflict | | Message | As we stated before, we should not get involved unless directly invoked. We only need to preserve life. Neither nation has the right to choose wether one nation's citizens should suffer or not. |
| Date | 00:21:44, March 21, 2008 CET |
From | Tukarali Graenix Party | To | Debating the Likatonia-Lodamun Conflict | | Message | I will review the situation and give my view. I do think that Minister Fenwick should be the one to release the statement whenever the Council and I come to a decision. |
| Date | 00:22:03, March 21, 2008 CET |
From | Tuatha Dé Danann | To | Debating the Likatonia-Lodamun Conflict | | Message | Also if the council should decide to undertake different measures than we proposed, we should carefully weigh out the pro's and con's of the new measure, and make sure that we don't engage ourselves in something that we might not win. |
| Date | 00:25:28, March 21, 2008 CET |
From | Tukarali Graenix Party | To | Debating the Likatonia-Lodamun Conflict | | Message | We can't just have troops barge into another country like that. There has to be some dialogue between our country and the nations involved. And we have to act as one Council representing the best interests of our region. That's why we are laying out plans now so there will be no in-fighting in a potentially volatile situation. |
| Date | 00:28:51, March 21, 2008 CET |
From | Tuatha Dé Danann | To | Debating the Likatonia-Lodamun Conflict | | Message | Also if the council should decide to undertake different measures than we proposed, we should carefully weigh out the pro's and con's of the new measure, and make sure that we don't engage ourselves in something that we might not win. |
| Date | 00:33:52, March 21, 2008 CET |
From | Patriot Party | To | Debating the Likatonia-Lodamun Conflict | | Message | We are a neutral nation and as such, we should do all that we can to bring peace to these two nations. Our forces should not ever be involved and if any of our forces get involved without consent of this body will be in violation of the Tukarali Neutrality Act
"RESOLVED:
The Nation of the United Tribes of Tukarali are neutral in all world conflicts unless we are directly attacked by another." |
| Date | 00:35:04, March 21, 2008 CET |
From | Patriot Party | To | Debating the Likatonia-Lodamun Conflict | | Message | Because of this...if this government takes military action, it will be grounds for impeachment as well as a new election. |
| Date | 00:38:03, March 21, 2008 CET |
From | Tuatha Dé Danann | To | Debating the Likatonia-Lodamun Conflict | | Message | We first need to agree on 1 plan that we will follow, or even make several in case the first one(s) fail. When we have agreed on those, we can propose to either country that we offer our aid to protect innocent civilians, and we can speak as 1 Council. Wether they accept or not is entirely up to them, it is even not necessary for both of them to accept, if one nation accepts and the other doesn't, than we can start off by protecting those.
Further about the barging in part. If a nation decides to undertake hostilities against civilians than we can not just sit passively. When they engage civilians they forfait their right to deny us access. |
| Date | 00:40:25, March 21, 2008 CET |
From | Patriot Party | To | Debating the Likatonia-Lodamun Conflict | | Message | You are most welcome TGP. Remember that Treaty because we will not hesitate to hit people over the head with it. |
| Date | 00:45:06, March 21, 2008 CET |
From | Tuatha Dé Danann | To | Debating the Likatonia-Lodamun Conflict | | Message | We do not lose the neutrality status because protecting civilians is not considered a military action. A military action is when one nation's armed forces engage others. Not when our forces are merely protecting civilians because civilians are neutral in any case. Military combat can only take place between military forces. However if our forces should open fire on military engaging civilians, than they would lose the neutral status, as much as we dislike it.
And second, the Neutrality act is bollocks and was opposed by us, just for scenarios like this. We hope to have it revised with this as an example and urge the Council to take the appropriate actions to dissolve it. |
| Date | 00:47:33, March 21, 2008 CET |
From | Patriot Party | To | Debating the Likatonia-Lodamun Conflict | | Message | Except that you are forgetting NUA that if we move with this, it will be seen as a provocation by a certain side that we are choosing sides in violation of the Tukarali Neutrality treaty. |
| Date | 00:50:15, March 21, 2008 CET |
From | Tuatha Dé Danann | To | Debating the Likatonia-Lodamun Conflict | | Message | It will not be seen like that because we will propose this aid to both countries and let them know that we proposed it. And ofcourse they have the guarantee that we will not involve ourselves if their militaries should engage eachother, which will be announced also. |
| Date | 00:50:53, March 21, 2008 CET |
From | Judicial Union Party | To | Debating the Likatonia-Lodamun Conflict | | Message | We propose to issue the following statements:
To Likatonia:
"The United Tribes of Tukarali condemn action taken by the Axis Mundi Likatonian Res Publica in invading the sovereign territory of the United Republics of Lodamun.
We invite the Axis Mundi Likatonian Res Publica to abandon the stated aims of settling in Rapula, and to seek peaceful solution to the present border dispute. We leave open an offer for the United Tribes of Tukarali to act in any capacity that parties wish as would help achieve such a peaceful solution."
To Lodamun:
"The United Tribes of Tukarali condemn in the strongest terms any actions undertaken by any nation that may result in the loss of human life. War is a situation that must be avoided at any cost, as it is disatrous for all parties concerned, and particularly so for civilians in the area.
We invite the United Republics of Lodamun to abandon military action against the Axis Mundi Likatonian Res Publica, and to seek a peaceful solution to the present border dispute. We leave open an offer for the United Tribes of Tukarali to act in any capacity that parties wish as would help achieve such a peaceful solution."
We shall wait for a short time until there is general consensus in the Council about this. |
| Date | 00:54:09, March 21, 2008 CET |
From | Tuatha Dé Danann | To | Debating the Likatonia-Lodamun Conflict | | Message | We like your proposal JUP. However we do feel that the proposal of protecting human life is not highlighted enough and that aspect should be let known to both nations. |
| Date | 01:07:54, March 21, 2008 CET |
From | Judicial Union Party | To | Debating the Likatonia-Lodamun Conflict | | Message | Altered:
"The United Tribes of Tukarali condemn action taken by the Axis Mundi Likatonian Res Publica in invading the sovereign territory of the United Republics of Lodamun. We are concerned about the possible toll such action would have on the innocent residents of Rapula, and to all across both the Axis Mundi Likatonian Res Publica and the United Republics of Lodamun.
We invite the Axis Mundi Likatonian Res Publica to abandon the stated aims of settling in Rapula, and to seek peaceful solution to the present border dispute. We affirm our commitment to the protection of human life, and we leave open an offer for the United Tribes of Tukarali to act in any capacity that parties wish as would help achieve such a peaceful solution."
and
"The United Tribes of Tukarali condemn in the strongest terms any actions undertaken by any nation that may result in the loss of human life. War is a situation that must be avoided at any cost, as it is disatrous for all parties concerned, and particularly so for civilians in the area.
We invite the United Republics of Lodamun to abandon military action against the Axis Mundi Likatonian Res Publica, and to seek a peaceful solution to the present border dispute. We affirm our commitment to the protection of human life, and we leave open an offer for the United Tribes of Tukarali to act in any capacity that parties wish as would help achieve such a peaceful solution."
Here, there is a statement saying our intention of protecting human life in the clearest terms, and we have still indicated the need for a peaceful solution. Is this acceptable to parties? |
| Date | 01:09:18, March 21, 2008 CET |
From | Tukarali Graenix Party | To | Debating the Likatonia-Lodamun Conflict | | Message | It seems as if you are weighing more heavily on Lodamun. We have to think of what we would have done if we were in their position. Likatonia is the instigator in this conflict. |
| Date | 01:12:10, March 21, 2008 CET |
From | Patriot Party | To | Debating the Likatonia-Lodamun Conflict | | Message | Send them both the exact same messege so that it does not come across as condemning one more than the other. |
| Date | 01:15:29, March 21, 2008 CET |
From | Tuatha Dé Danann | To | Debating the Likatonia-Lodamun Conflict | | Message | However Likatonia may be the instigator, we can not meddle in their affairs as such. We would be there neutral and only to protect life, not decide which side is the "bad" one or the one that should be punished. That is something an other institute should decide and take care of.
Also, we like the current altered statement JUP. |
| Date | 01:15:47, March 21, 2008 CET |
From | Judicial Union Party | To | Debating the Likatonia-Lodamun Conflict | | Message | They are, but both parties are to blame. Likatonia indicated it would send settlers into Lodamun territory. Lodamun declared war, which stoked the conflict to a particularly dangerous one. While infringing the sovereignty of a nation is an act that should be avoided, it is the war which could bring this into a real humanitarian problem. |
| Date | 01:19:50, March 21, 2008 CET |
From | Patriot Party | To | Debating the Likatonia-Lodamun Conflict | | Message | And we should offer all available humanitarian aide and that is as far as our involvement should go. |
| Date | 01:25:43, March 21, 2008 CET |
From | Judicial Union Party | To | Debating the Likatonia-Lodamun Conflict | | Message | The following message shall be sent to both nations.
"The United Tribes of Tukarali condemn in the strongest terms any actions undertaken by any nation that may result in the loss of human life. War is a situation that must be avoided at any cost; it is disatrous for all parties concerned, and particularly so for civilians in the area of conflict.
We invite the Axis Mundi Likatonian Res Publica and the United Republics of Lodamun to abandon any aggressive action toward one another, and to seek peaceful solution to the present border dispute. We affirm our commitment to the protection of human life, and we leave open an offer for the United Tribes of Tukarali to act in any capacity that parties wish as would help to achieve such a peaceful solution." |
| Date | 01:26:16, March 21, 2008 CET |
From | Tuatha Dé Danann | To | Debating the Likatonia-Lodamun Conflict | | Message | Patriot is right, as I said a bit higher, we are not there to toss blame. We can make up our mind about who did what and who is the cause, but we cannot meddle in their military affairs, only provide humanitarian aid and citizen protection. We can also offer to host neutral peacetalks etc etc, but those are only possible with goodwill from both their nations.
The NUA's stance is: We will go by the Neutrality Act for now, but we encourge to always send humanitarian forces in order to protect the innocent, in any region or in any conflict, without interfering. |
| Date | 04:28:35, March 21, 2008 CET |
From | Judicial Union Party | To | Debating the Likatonia-Lodamun Conflict | | Message | This discussion can be archived now, as steps have been taken. It may be necessary to have further discussion on the matter in the future, but for now, this can be pushed off the table. |
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| Vote |
Seats |
| yes | Total Seats: 306 |
| no | Total Seats: 0 |
| abstain | Total Seats: 194 |
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