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Bill: A Mixed Market Approach to Business

Details

Submitted by[?]: Royal Conservative Party

Status[?]: passed

Votes: This is an ordinary bill. It requires more yes votes than no votes. This bill will not pass any sooner than the deadline.

Voting deadline: December 2115

Description[?]:

The subsidy offered to businesses will help foreign investors regain confidence in the Lodamun business environment as it offers a safeguard against failure. At the same time, it offers safety of tenure to employees.

Proposals

Debate

These messages have been posted to debate on this bill:

Date22:30:16, September 20, 2005 CET
FromCooperative Commonwealth Federation
ToDebating the A Mixed Market Approach to Business
MessageThe willingness to find a middle path is much appreciated.

The problem here is that there really isn't a proposal offering a middle path. The proposed value (state ownership) is actually more hard-left than the existing one (workers councils).

Date22:52:45, September 20, 2005 CET
From Tuesday Is Coming
ToDebating the A Mixed Market Approach to Business
MessageThe problem is that state ownership, no state action, DWCs, and state mandated DWCs are all very different.

Date02:46:27, September 21, 2005 CET
FromRoyal Conservative Party
ToDebating the A Mixed Market Approach to Business
Message"The proposed value (state ownership) is actually more hard-left than the existing one (workers councils)."

I would disagree on the basis that all states (left and right) have some nationalised key industries and that even right wing parties would hesitate before privatising them. These might be the national space agency or the postal service or the water board. Through nationalisation we avoid the main problem of DWCs (the fact that they are chosen for their role because they are workers not because they are good business men) as governments generally can appoint who they wish to the role and usually they will wish to appoint the most competent person for the role. Therefore we can hardly call nationalisation 'state mandated DWCs' as usually the state will have either a minister, civil servants or appointed officials to run such industries rather than the workforce.

Another middle option which seemed reasonable to me was the state offering subsidies to businesses about to go bankrupt. This would also appear to be a fair balance and I will change the proposal to this if it would prove popular enough to pass.

Date03:04:44, September 21, 2005 CET
From Tuesday Is Coming
ToDebating the A Mixed Market Approach to Business
MessageI oppose any state action, and cannot justify moving from one axis of interference to another.

Especially when the thief parties of the nation will just change the law again, redistributing and redividing to suit their own interests until nothing remains to steal.

Date16:55:31, September 21, 2005 CET
FromCooperative Commonwealth Federation
ToDebating the A Mixed Market Approach to Business
MessageThe one we proposed some time back was that the state nationalizes failing industries (largely to prevent them from falling into foreign hands). This was however rejected by the Assembly. We may be wrong, but our understanding is that TIC will not compromise on this issue but will stand on "libertarian principles" (thus the reference to "thief" parties, the theft presumably being taxation). We certainly want to see some compromise here, but it's hard to see how one can be found that will command majority support.

Date18:59:15, September 21, 2005 CET
From Tuesday Is Coming
ToDebating the A Mixed Market Approach to Business
MessageTheft refers to taking what doesnt belong to you. Taking property away from hardworking entrepreneurs is theft.

Date00:07:07, September 22, 2005 CET
FromRoyal Conservative Party
ToDebating the A Mixed Market Approach to Business
MessageWell then, government subsidies to falling businesses is surely the better course of action, if indeed we do wish to conclude a lasting and constant settlement on this most prickly of issues. A subsidy does not take control of the industry away from the private owners but it could save jobs and future tax revenue, thus giving the economy a helping hand from government.

Date00:21:13, September 22, 2005 CET
From Tuesday Is Coming
ToDebating the A Mixed Market Approach to Business
MessageTiC opposes subsidizing successful businesses, what makes you think we will support a system that rewards failure?


"Capitalism without failure is like religion without sin. Bankruptcies and losses concentrate the mind on prudent behavior." – Allan H. Meltzer

"The economic miracle that has been the United States was not produced by socialized enterprises, by government-unon-industry cartels or by centralized economic planning. It was produced by private enterprises in a profit-and-loss system. And losses were at least as important in weeding out failures, as profits in fostering successes. Let government succor failures, and we shall be headed for stagnation and decline." – Milton Friedman

"Choose loss rather than shameful gains. – Greek proverb "

Date03:53:33, September 22, 2005 CET
FromCNT/AFL
ToDebating the A Mixed Market Approach to Business
Message((The shaking fits of laughter stopped me from reading right about here "The economic miracle that has been the United States.." :D ))

Date05:31:31, September 22, 2005 CET
From Tuesday Is Coming
ToDebating the A Mixed Market Approach to Business
Message((You dont believe that the United States has been economically successful? Who should I believe-you or Milton Friedman?))

Date14:25:19, September 22, 2005 CET
FromRoyal Conservative Party
ToDebating the A Mixed Market Approach to Business
Message((I believe the miracle that Mr. Friedman is referring to is the way in which America managed to gain economic parity with the European imperialist powers within 30 years of industrialisation and then managed to surpass the aforementioned powers in another 10. The speed of this rise has no precedent in the modern world. Of course this is largely because the American economy was assisted by the minor incident of two world wars completely and utterly crushing most of Western Europe's economy.))

Date18:11:01, September 22, 2005 CET
FromCooperative Commonwealth Federation
ToDebating the A Mixed Market Approach to Business
Message((well, quite. And no European power had an ever-expanding hinterland and an entire continent worth of natural resources either. America's structural advantages in economics, geography and politics make it less of a miracle than all that. and some economists ask why America did not become the dominant world power faster than it did: maybe the miracle was that tiny Britain was able to be the dominant world trading power for so long, even while America was so much richer.))

Date18:12:28, September 22, 2005 CET
FromCooperative Commonwealth Federation
ToDebating the A Mixed Market Approach to Business
Message((What's really laughable is Friedman's notion that the USA is a pure market economy, free of government intervention in the market. A real blind spot on military Keynesianism there, for instance.))

Date18:43:34, September 22, 2005 CET
From Tuesday Is Coming
ToDebating the A Mixed Market Approach to Business
Message((Friedman lived in a time before the current federal involvement in the economy, there was some, but not nearly on the level of today))

Date23:32:53, September 22, 2005 CET
FromCooperative Commonwealth Federation
ToDebating the A Mixed Market Approach to Business
Messagehuh? Friedman's Nobel Prize came in 1976, well after military Keynesianism was in full flight. His autobiography at http://nobelprize.org/economics/laureates/1976/friedman-autobio.html has an addendum he wrote in 2005. His wiki entry at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milton_Friedman gives some background on the controversy surrounding this apologist's role in economic restructuring programmes by authoritarian regimes.

Date01:14:27, September 23, 2005 CET
From Tuesday Is Coming
ToDebating the A Mixed Market Approach to Business
MessageCorrect, all I meant was that his major work, and Nobel prize, was won before the government reached its current level.

In any case, I would say that he is far more qualified to judge the economic situation of the US than economically inept parties here.

Date17:58:33, September 23, 2005 CET
FromCooperative Commonwealth Federation
ToDebating the A Mixed Market Approach to Business
MessageMilitary Keynesianism was well in place before the Nobel prize. Eisenhower warned against the military-industrial complex back in 1960, following 8 years of Republcian tax-and-spend policies which grew the economy. Not sure what you mean by politically inept parties, since this is all out of character.

Date17:59:46, September 23, 2005 CET
FromCooperative Commonwealth Federation
ToDebating the A Mixed Market Approach to Business
MessageBack in-character: we will vote for this if it is accepted by the libertarian parties as a permanent compromise, for a minimum of ten years. If it is not, we will vote our conscience.

Date00:50:27, September 24, 2005 CET
From Tuesday Is Coming
ToDebating the A Mixed Market Approach to Business
MessageAny time-limit stipulation will of course only apply to parties that agree to it by voting in favor? This is the usual method.

Date18:52:52, September 24, 2005 CET
FromCooperative Commonwealth Federation
ToDebating the A Mixed Market Approach to Business
MessageIf TIC wishes to flout the will of the majority, no one can stop them. However, if they do return this issue to the Assembly, we will reserve the right to do the same.

Date20:44:06, September 24, 2005 CET
From Tuesday Is Coming
ToDebating the A Mixed Market Approach to Business
MessageWe oppose any attempts to steal property from our entrepreneurs. We oppose any attempts to return the shattered remnants to them for the reason of stealing it again later. We oppose any attempts to subsidize and promote failure.

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Voting

Vote Seats
yes
     

Total Seats: 176

no
  

Total Seats: 87

abstain
 

Total Seats: 37


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