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Bill: Kayabuki ex post facto Sentencing
Details
Submitted by[?]: Anti-Federalists of Free Sekowo
Status[?]: passed
Votes: This bill is a resolution. It requires more yes votes than no votes. This bill will not pass any sooner than the deadline.
Voting deadline: January 2594
Description[?]:
| Due to the necessity of searching to ensure all data collected concerning the case was accurate, and that the judges were in no way bribed, etc., the former Minister of Justice, Lyev Chernomazov, proposes a sentencing as follows. I. The Democratic Socialists Party (hereafter to be called the DSP) will be banned from holding the office of Prytanis for 100 years. II. The DSP will be barred from the office of Minister of Foreign Affairs for 100 years. III. The DSP will be barred from the Ministry of Justice for 100 years. IV. The DSP will be barred from the Ministry of Defence for 100 years. V. All persons responsible for the inexcusable use of nuclear weapons will be executed. VI. Upon the resolution of war in Hutori, the Federal Commonwealth of Sekowo will erect a monument, mourning the loss of life due to nuclear warfare, and as a testament, however paltry, of the shame which Sekowo feels as a nation. OOC: Debate at will. |
Proposals
Debate
These messages have been posted to debate on this bill:
| Date | 17:05:41, June 09, 2008 CET | From | Revolutionary State Socialist Party | To | Debating the Kayabuki ex post facto Sentencing |
| Message | We would need a very specific list of who you consider "responsible" before we could sign off on any executions. OOC: 100 years is 200 days real time, isn't that a bit much? |
| Date | 17:10:00, June 09, 2008 CET | From | Sekowan Communist Party | To | Debating the Kayabuki ex post facto Sentencing |
| Message | Notrly. |
| Date | 19:38:06, June 09, 2008 CET | From |  Imperial Pluralism Party | To | Debating the Kayabuki ex post facto Sentencing |
| Message | We feel that the execution provision is a necessary evil, and we give our thanks to the AFFS for utilizing the Lex Iurisdictionis so effectively. OOC: 200 days translates into "as long as possible." By that time, it will be basically the new years of 2009, and I doubt that the same power structure will be in place that could enforce this provision. However, we support, as this only excludes them from the offices of power, but not from the cabinet entirely. |
| Date | 02:56:43, June 10, 2008 CET | From | Normand Pluralist Party | To | Debating the Kayabuki ex post facto Sentencing |
| Message | We do not feel that the DSP needs to be excluded from the offices of Finance or Internal Affairs, though they may have put forth a dishonest member as Prytanis. We ask that these offices be removed from the current banned list. We support the other measures, excepting: We do not feel that it is wise to execute those involved via a CIVIL trial, as this would be ex-post-facto (when the act was commited, Sekowo banned the death penalty), which we do not feel should be legal in Sekowo. We feel that the individuals involved should instead be court martialled and executed by military tribunals (where such executions are perfectly legal, particularly for actions in times of war, such as this constituted). |
| Date | 03:00:13, June 10, 2008 CET | From | Anti-Federalists of Free Sekowo | To | Debating the Kayabuki ex post facto Sentencing |
| Message | OOC: How would we work a military tribunal? |
| Date | 04:01:30, June 10, 2008 CET | From | Revolutionary State Socialist Party | To | Debating the Kayabuki ex post facto Sentencing |
| Message | I was assured most of the military had been exempted from execution. You are making it out to be a mass execution of sorts. How many people are we really talking about? |
| Date | 08:21:35, June 10, 2008 CET | From | Imperial Pluralism Party | To | Debating the Kayabuki ex post facto Sentencing |
| Message | A military tribunal is no more "legal" than a civilian trial. There is no law in the military against misuse of nuclear weapons. That is a civilian law since the regulations on nuclear weapon use were passed by the legislature. In fact, the workings of the military legal system are cursory at best and non-functional at worst. They are no more entitled to carrying out executions and ex post facto judgments than the civilian system. This is not to say that we are against a military tribunal. In fact, we think that it is an excellent alternative to any civilian court in this particular matter. We only wish that legislation is enacted that codifies as law the workings of this seemingly mystical and pseudo-legalistic military tribunal system. Note that this current bill is not a trial and is not part of the judicial system. This is an action of the legislature which, according to Sekowan law, is authorized to pass ex post facto judgments on topics of extraordinary gravity. Although a military tribunal under a well defined legal process would be a fine way to solve this case, an ex post facto act of the legislature is just as effective and far more direct than anything the military could decide. Regarding the execution of justice for those responsible for the nuclear mishap, we propose that a council of sorts be assembled with the discretionary power to investigate the matter and to present the legislature with a list of those responsible. The legislature may then authorize the execution of these people or reject the list and have a new council conduct another investigation. |
| Date | 08:41:17, June 10, 2008 CET | From | Sekowan Communist Party | To | Debating the Kayabuki ex post facto Sentencing |
| Message | Regarding the objections of the NPP to excluding the DSP from the offices of Finance and Internal Affairs, we must submit that the former would allow a party already shown to be corrupt to embezzle money that much more easily, and the latter would allow them to purchase defense weapons exclusively from either their or the IMF's private defense contractors. |
| Date | 18:39:42, June 10, 2008 CET | From | Revolutionary State Socialist Party | To | Debating the Kayabuki ex post facto Sentencing |
| Message | Our defense contractors have never had an exclusive agreement. For one thing, our companies are not large enough to produce everything needed for a military. Also, though I may not speak for DSP's contractors, our contractors admit when they do not have the best weapons, and even reccomend foreign weapons that would help fill any shortcommings of any weapons we sell. (This is not saying that our weapons are of bad quality, just that no weapon is perfect). P.S. AUP, I already have a good idea of a list of people who can be executed, if you want, I'll write it up and you can take a look at it. |
| Date | 20:00:47, June 10, 2008 CET | From | Imperial Pluralism Party | To | Debating the Kayabuki ex post facto Sentencing |
| Message | We would certainly like to see that list. If the NPP and others are interested, we are willing to write up a procedure for military trials and a provision that gives the military the right to charge leaders with administrative neglect and incompetence. |
| Date | 21:19:31, June 10, 2008 CET | From | Revolutionary State Socialist Party | To | Debating the Kayabuki ex post facto Sentencing |
| Message | Would you like me to make up names or just use the position? |
| Date | 21:23:53, June 10, 2008 CET | From | 帝国公明党 (Teikoku Kōmeitō) | To | Debating the Kayabuki ex post facto Sentencing |
| Message | OOC: Since I'm the largest party by a considerable amount I'm not gonna vote since it could vote negative for this I have to say 100 years is excessive, I mean 50 years I could understand, but realistically I don't think it's ever done, period. I mean yeas people and parties are barred form politics in real life for a specific time period but I've never heard of it exceeding 20 years, I mean heck look at Turkey where violating Seculairty is almost treason, they may ban the party (not always) but they only usually prohibit the people from holding political office for 5-10 years. Secondly on this point I understand Foreign Affairs, and the Military, which is'nt even on the list and for the duration of the whole case I can understand Justice (though after that not so much) but Finances had nothing to do with this what-so-ever, nor do I always hold the ministry (only once that I remember) so it's not like that would actually be any kind of punishment let alone one that makes sense. As for the military contractors, well I only ever made two, JHI and Tsunade Armaments and JHI has refused to sell anything to the Sekowan military for game decades and Tsunade armaments is a small arms manufacturer, more a company that would sell to private citizens and groups rather then the government. |
| Date | 22:12:36, June 10, 2008 CET | From | Normand Pluralist Party | To | Debating the Kayabuki ex post facto Sentencing |
| Message | We are indeed interested in such provisions, AUP. We also feel that potential financial embezzlement, while certainly a concern, is not directly related to this particular incident, and we would like to give the DSP a little bit more benefit of the doubt. (we would also support any time frame between 50-100 years. We wont make a fuss about length) |
| Date | 01:17:52, June 11, 2008 CET | From | Revolutionary State Socialist Party | To | Debating the Kayabuki ex post facto Sentencing |
| Message | *we can make up names later if we need/want too Kayabuki (duh) and second in command (maybe) Commanding officer of the first sub* Commanding officer of the second sub* *I feel these people take responsibility for their entire command, we also have no idea what they told their crew |
| Date | 02:46:49, June 11, 2008 CET | From | Sekowan Communist Party | To | Debating the Kayabuki ex post facto Sentencing |
| Message | Why isn't the ministry of defence one of the positions the DSP is to be banned from? |
| Date | 22:57:30, June 11, 2008 CET | From | 帝国公明党 (Teikoku Kōmeitō) | To | Debating the Kayabuki ex post facto Sentencing |
| Message | Embezzlement is the result of capitalism and those who seek money, we are a Socialist party, we dislike money so the idea that we would embezzle we do not think should even be considered. OOC: Give me a number, excluding Kayabuki (since she has a name) and I'll make up some names. Though remember this would'nt have all been the party higher-ups, it was a conspiracy after all. |
| Date | 23:00:29, June 11, 2008 CET | From | Normand Pluralist Party | To | Debating the Kayabuki ex post facto Sentencing |
| Message | Ah, they should be banned from the Ministry of Defense, definitely. But not from Finance or Internal Affairs. |
| Date | 02:20:40, June 12, 2008 CET | From | Revolutionary State Socialist Party | To | Debating the Kayabuki ex post facto Sentencing |
| Message | 3 for sure, perhaps 3 more just in case. |
| Date | 08:14:37, June 12, 2008 CET | From | 帝国公明党 (Teikoku Kōmeitō) | To | Debating the Kayabuki ex post facto Sentencing |
| Message | OOC: I know it's only going to hurt my er cabinet positions available, but I honestly would have though Internal affairs would have been on the list. Of course I never have internal affairs, since I don't really like the seat, so I guess it all works out the same. Also, how about four, just so long as it's under eight, since I do have to take time to think of realistic names. |
| Date | 17:21:52, June 13, 2008 CET | From | Anti-Federalists of Free Sekowo | To | Debating the Kayabuki ex post facto Sentencing |
| Message | OOC: I think to keep the 100 years, but from out of game perspective. In game, there should have been a FURIOUS backlash against the party. I know, one person isn't a party, but the actions of one person, especially one in power, have a major effect on people. Look at American politics. Bush has made a big difference on the way people view Republicans. If you think that won't affect voter turnout, you're a bit blind, I think. The Kli'kut, being Buddhist, would never unite themselves with the DSP for a long time. It would be a big, hard hit in the Folkstamma. However, we can't make that happen, so we have to compensate. (This is part of the reason I'm so frustrated when you make pacifist positioning bills. You don't believe them in RP. You are very aggressive in RP, to be frank. It's not a pacifist party.) |
| Date | 22:54:50, June 13, 2008 CET | From | 帝国公明党 (Teikoku Kōmeitō) | To | Debating the Kayabuki ex post facto Sentencing |
| Message | OOC: Well to be honest, I really don't think 100 game years is gonna work, since it's likely we'll get new parties that don't follow it. Also, that's American politics, which to be honest tends to be more er volatile then politics in most other countries, except Taiwan, they get into fistfights (Taiwan rocks). Actually the Kli'kut are only 15% pure Buddhists, the others are mixtures of Buddhism and animism, plus not everyone is the same. As for being pacifist, well compared to alot of others I am generally pacifistic, and of the positioning bills I do make (of which only 10% I don't follow) I only make them for visibility purposes, I actually have never had a militarist positioning. |
| Date | 02:11:43, June 14, 2008 CET | From | Anti-Federalists of Free Sekowo | To | Debating the Kayabuki ex post facto Sentencing |
| Message | OOC: Positioning is irrelevant. You have 300,000 troops in Hutori. A party militia is not the institution of a pacific nature. You're a militarist. |
| Date | 07:23:08, June 14, 2008 CET | From | 帝国公明党 (Teikoku Kōmeitō) | To | Debating the Kayabuki ex post facto Sentencing |
| Message | OOC: Actually, even at the most I had less then 200,000, and the vast majority were non-combat troops. Also I have'nt had troops there in quite awhile. |
| Date | 11:41:56, June 14, 2008 CET | From | Normand Pluralist Party | To | Debating the Kayabuki ex post facto Sentencing |
| Message | [[Actually, Britain and France are way more volatile than the US. Same goes for Canada. I'm not sure what makes you think we're volatile. You looking at Chinese politics? Sheesh. And I agree with the AFFS about the pacifist bit. You should stick with the Monarchist party. It's more your way of doing things]] |
| Date | 03:31:55, June 15, 2008 CET | From | 帝国公明党 (Teikoku Kōmeitō) | To | Debating the Kayabuki ex post facto Sentencing |
| Message | OOC: By volatile I mean they break down into bickering about everything and nothing ever gets down unless one sides has a majority. And PRChina does'nt have politics, it's a totalitarian state. |
| Date | 13:04:29, June 15, 2008 CET | From | Normand Pluralist Party | To | Debating the Kayabuki ex post facto Sentencing |
| Message | [[Re: China: That's exactly my point. Anyway that's the opposite of volatile. What you're describing is gridlock or stagnation. Not very volatile at all. But you'd better believe that if this happened in the US, France, or Britain, there'd be a massive backlash and outrage over the issue.]] So, going to make the proposed changes? |
| Date | 18:24:37, June 15, 2008 CET | From | Anti-Federalists of Free Sekowo | To | Debating the Kayabuki ex post facto Sentencing |
| Message | OOC: Britain? You've obviously never watched the House of Commons. The US is peaceful compared to that monkey house. |
| Date | 08:26:30, June 16, 2008 CET | From | Normand Pluralist Party | To | Debating the Kayabuki ex post facto Sentencing |
| Message | We support overall, though we still dislike putting the execution article here, and wouldn't mind if terms were shortened to, say, 75 years (an average lifetime). |
| Date | 09:00:02, June 16, 2008 CET | From | 帝国公明党 (Teikoku Kōmeitō) | To | Debating the Kayabuki ex post facto Sentencing |
| Message | OOC: Yes, I suppose stagnation is a better word, but they do end up getting into yelling matches over stuff, and it leads to a slightly angry populace, so I think volatile can be used here. Also, it depends on the country, in some countries there would be backlash but in tohers she would be considered a national hero, just saying. |
| Date | 04:38:46, June 17, 2008 CET | From | Anti-Federalists of Free Sekowo | To | Debating the Kayabuki ex post facto Sentencing |
| Message | OOC: More riots and racism in Europe than America, FYI. The Turks aren't doing so well abroad thanks to the Europeans. Europe is more volatile, but no one in America studies it. (Media worships the secularism of Europe, and so they can't report it, and the Right-wingers are too busy trying to take care of local issues. Get your facts straight. |
| Date | 04:50:56, June 17, 2008 CET | From | 帝国公明党 (Teikoku Kōmeitō) | To | Debating the Kayabuki ex post facto Sentencing |
| Message | OOC: Oh I know Europe has it's own problems, heck I don't think there is any country that does'nt have problems of some sort, America's is just worse shall we say since we only have two parties that really are'nt very representative of the populace, one side represents two minorities (IE far right conservatives and economic liberals) and the other side goes between centrism and being left of center. Also, I think Turkeys problems abroad are more its own fault then Europe's. |
| Date | 23:32:41, June 17, 2008 CET | From | Normand Pluralist Party | To | Debating the Kayabuki ex post facto Sentencing |
| Message | Would someone please take this to a vote so we can move forward with the cabinet? |
| Date | 04:09:52, June 19, 2008 CET | From | 帝国公明党 (Teikoku Kōmeitō) | To | Debating the Kayabuki ex post facto Sentencing |
| Message | OOC: Since my voting will have no affect on the outcome I'm gonna vote just to keep from appearing inactive. |
| Date | 10:14:06, June 19, 2008 CET | From | Normand Pluralist Party | To | Debating the Kayabuki ex post facto Sentencing |
| Message | We normally would not have voted for this so readily, but we simply wanted to see the issue resolved so we could form a cabinet with the DSP. |
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Voting
| Vote | Seats | |||||
| yes |
Total Seats: 389 | |||||
| no |
Total Seats: 155 | |||||
| abstain | Total Seats: 56 |
| Random fact: Bill descriptions must be in English, or at least include a full English translation. Bill titles may appear in a language that is appropriate to the nation and are not required to be translated into English. |
| Random quote: "Our enemies are innovative and resourceful and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people and neither do we." - George W. Bush |