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Bill: AFFS 031.2610 Foreign Affairs Reform
Details
Submitted by[?]: Anti-Federalists of Free Sekowo
Status[?]: defeated
Votes: This bill is a resolution. It requires more yes votes than no votes. This bill will not pass any sooner than the deadline.
Voting deadline: October 2613
Description[?]:
| In the spirit of pursuing a more peaceful and loving Terra, we propose a change in our policy, to actively pursue neutrality in the international field, thus placing the importance of Sekowo's citizens and armed forces first. This is not, to say, to disarm the people. Far from it. Rather, the measure would allow for a more active policy in promoting peace. Upon passage of this bill, the Foreign Affairs ministry will make it their policy to actively contact other nations and place Sekowo in a positive situation internationally with them. The Foreign Affairs ministry will NOT, however, pursue any binding ties with other nations, as it is their responsibility to pursue peace with all nations, and ties could pull our nation into war. |
Proposals
Debate
These messages have been posted to debate on this bill:
| Date | 00:02:41, July 23, 2008 CET | From |  帝国公明党 (Teikoku Kōmeitō) | To | Debating the AFFS 031.2610 Foreign Affairs Reform |
| Message | No. We are not neutral, nor have we ever been, we must be in a position to act in a way that will be positive for us and our allies. Neutrality is a sign of weakness. |
| Date | 00:45:24, July 23, 2008 CET | From | Anti-Federalists of Free Sekowo | To | Debating the AFFS 031.2610 Foreign Affairs Reform |
| Message | And World War, causing the deaths of thousands, or even millions of our citizens, is better? I think that you would call anything short of violence weakness. Peace is not weakness, nor is restraint. Restraint is stronger, in our opinion, than violence. OOC: Tell that to Switzerland. :p |
| Date | 00:50:42, July 23, 2008 CET | From | 帝国公明党 (Teikoku Kōmeitō) | To | Debating the AFFS 031.2610 Foreign Affairs Reform |
| Message | The death of a few thousand (primarily soldiers) in the protection of hundreds of millions is an acceptable situation. OOC: Yeah, but look at what's happening to them now, they're becoming xenophobic and anti-immigrant, hell alot of want to kick out a persons entire family if that person commits a crime. In reality long term neutrality is'nt really a good idea nor is it really possible. And note, long term to me tends to be atleast one-hundred years. |
| Date | 00:59:19, July 23, 2008 CET | From | Anti-Federalists of Free Sekowo | To | Debating the AFFS 031.2610 Foreign Affairs Reform |
| Message | The changing face of war makes it impossible for us to assume that enemies would not use tactics designed to attack civilians directly. Your war-mongering is nothing less than the pursuit of your socialist ideals, and you are willing to hazard the safety and sanity of our young men and women! Having a party militia which acts and represents Sekowo is bad enough, but your complete disregard for human life is disgusting! OOC: 400 years isn't a long term? I'm confused. |
| Date | 01:14:39, July 23, 2008 CET | From | 帝国公明党 (Teikoku Kōmeitō) | To | Debating the AFFS 031.2610 Foreign Affairs Reform |
| Message | We have lead Sekowo through two wars and countless threats from other nations that could have lead to it, war is not that unpredictable. Further more the PSA has'nt actually done anything in decades, indeed this is the longest interval of time they've not been active in some conflict or humanitarian work. OOC: I mean in the future, in terms of the past one of the reasons they survived is because they never had to go through revolutions since they'd actually been democratic from the start. |
| Date | 01:19:00, July 23, 2008 CET | From | Anti-Federalists of Free Sekowo | To | Debating the AFFS 031.2610 Foreign Affairs Reform |
| Message | No, but it is also not inevitable. We can achieve peace. We need not tolerate evil, but at this point, there are enough problems at home for us to worry about going abroad for problems. If we can maintain a healthy amount of neutrality, we need not worry about losing our finest sons and daughters. This is important for the safety of our nation. We can defend ourselves, but we need not entangle ourselves in fights which aren't ours to fight. Let us take care of our own, first. Let them be safe, before we dare think to impose our safety upon others. OOC: So are we! Convenient, no? :D |
| Date | 01:24:24, July 23, 2008 CET | From | 帝国公明党 (Teikoku Kōmeitō) | To | Debating the AFFS 031.2610 Foreign Affairs Reform |
| Message | The best way to ensure our safety is to become powerful, to show the world the dire consequences of questioning or attacking us. OOC: We were'nt really that Democratic, I mean hell we started off with only white men who owned land being able to vote, and even then the state legislatures chose the senators. The only real reason we did'nt have a revolution in the early 20th century was because of WW1&2. |
| Date | 01:26:13, July 23, 2008 CET | From | Anti-Federalists of Free Sekowo | To | Debating the AFFS 031.2610 Foreign Affairs Reform |
| Message | Well, we need not bully others in order to do so. Simply fortifying, showing our strength, should be plenty in the modern world. We need not attack. We can remain defensive, and keep ourselves safe. OOC: Oh, I thought we were talking about Sekowo. Sorry, my mistake in posting. |
| Date | 02:16:26, July 23, 2008 CET | From | 帝国公明党 (Teikoku Kōmeitō) | To | Debating the AFFS 031.2610 Foreign Affairs Reform |
| Message | The fact that another country is claiming our territory as their own and non-friendly nations are claiming Vascania (think USSR getting S. America) as their own warrants a much larger show of strength. OOC: Perhaps I should be more clear next time. Though in all honesty Sekowo probably did have revolutions and stuff, however since AUP deleted all of Sekowo's history (which is not supposed to be done), so I have no idea. Though we did have the civil war, but that was'nt really a revolution. |
| Date | 02:21:53, July 23, 2008 CET | From | Anti-Federalists of Free Sekowo | To | Debating the AFFS 031.2610 Foreign Affairs Reform |
| Message | We are not promoting appeasement. Rather, we believe that we can resolve the conflicts we may have without the loss of life. The specifics for each nation would naturally be discussed, allowing us to figure out the best course of action for Sekowo. We need not rush into wars, nor provoke others into warring with us. We believe that a summit may be reached whereby we can accomplish all that needs to occur for a stable, free, Dovani and Terra. |
| Date | 02:43:58, July 23, 2008 CET | From | 帝国公明党 (Teikoku Kōmeitō) | To | Debating the AFFS 031.2610 Foreign Affairs Reform |
| Message | That is exactly the problem. These nations can not be reasoned with, they're mixtures of authoritarian states and monarchies, some of which are doing things based on religion. Negotiations have already been exhausted. OOC: Since I'm the only one active on the forums, I tend to negotiate, and believe me, I go the diplomatic route first. |
| Date | 04:28:49, July 23, 2008 CET | From | Anti-Federalists of Free Sekowo | To | Debating the AFFS 031.2610 Foreign Affairs Reform |
| Message | And, of course, the DSP shows their bigotry and prejudice, which perhaps is the reason why your diplomatic attempts have failed. Why? A complete lack of common courtesy, and any sort of willingness to embrace other cultures. We propose that a coalition of immigrants, in some cases coming from the country we seek to negotiate with, would be more effective. Leave negotiation to negotiators, not warriors. OOC: Well, I'm here to provide a new perspective, eh? One evidently very different. |
| Date | 05:10:07, July 23, 2008 CET | From | Revolutionary State Socialist Party | To | Debating the AFFS 031.2610 Foreign Affairs Reform |
| Message | OOC: Lots of comments, still reading, but my opinion: nuetral = bad |
| Date | 05:18:36, July 23, 2008 CET | From | 帝国公明党 (Teikoku Kōmeitō) | To | Debating the AFFS 031.2610 Foreign Affairs Reform |
| Message | We are not biased. For instance, Malivia wants Kurageri and Rapa Pile based on religious beliefs. We offered to allow them to build there temples and have there theoscientists (there term, not mine) stay there, however they won't accept anything except full control. OOC: As much as I hate using mainstream politics, if we were running fro president I think we'd probably have the situation with McCain and Obama have no in terms of foreign policy. |
| Date | 05:40:14, July 23, 2008 CET | From | Anti-Federalists of Free Sekowo | To | Debating the AFFS 031.2610 Foreign Affairs Reform |
| Message | OOC: Because I'm not aware of the situation? That's fair. If I get a chance to read, and learn? If someone other than you were to be aware? I think the foreign policy would be much better. |
| Date | 05:50:00, July 23, 2008 CET | From | 帝国公明党 (Teikoku Kōmeitō) | To | Debating the AFFS 031.2610 Foreign Affairs Reform |
| Message | OOC: I mean the public knowledge would be more on my side, that is since I've always spent as much time on foreign affairs as domestic affiars I'd be seen as the more experienced canidate, simply because of the history. I expect you've already been reading some stuff, though there is definately alot you'll have to read, and not all of it is on the forums. I can provide links to some of the more obscure but important stuff though. |
| Date | 06:12:56, July 23, 2008 CET | From | Anti-Federalists of Free Sekowo | To | Debating the AFFS 031.2610 Foreign Affairs Reform |
| Message | OOC: I'd appreciate that. You have to admit, though, I'm doing pretty well from a theoretical standpoint, considering I have nothing to draw from. |
| Date | 06:31:07, July 23, 2008 CET | From | 帝国公明党 (Teikoku Kōmeitō) | To | Debating the AFFS 031.2610 Foreign Affairs Reform |
| Message | OOC: Yeah, you are actually. For the current situation the only thing's you'll really need to read up on are the following forum threads; http://www.takeforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9874&mforum=particracy - Colonies in general. http://www.takeforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10065&mforum=particracy - N. Dovani Colonization Dialogue http://www.takeforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9980&mforum=particracy - S. Dovani Colonization Dialogue |
| Date | 16:41:28, July 23, 2008 CET | From | Revolutionary State Socialist Party | To | Debating the AFFS 031.2610 Foreign Affairs Reform |
| Message | OOC: Havn't looked in awhile, are they still just whining about us beause we had good ideas and they didn't. I'm seriously tried of them trying to ruin our IC empire for OOC reasons. |
| Date | 21:56:55, July 23, 2008 CET | From | Normand Pluralist Party | To | Debating the AFFS 031.2610 Foreign Affairs Reform |
| Message | [[I really don't think the World Wars staved off a revolution in the US. Matter of fact, I think they had no effect on it. That said, we DID have a revolution in Americaa failed one, which we call the Civil War. We've had numerous other, smaller, failed revolutions, as well]] |
| Date | 01:45:43, July 24, 2008 CET | From | Anti-Federalists of Free Sekowo | To | Debating the AFFS 031.2610 Foreign Affairs Reform |
| Message | OOC: I was about to agree with NPP. A revolution is when it succeeds, civil war when it fails. :p |
| Date | 01:47:52, July 24, 2008 CET | From | 帝国公明党 (Teikoku Kōmeitō) | To | Debating the AFFS 031.2610 Foreign Affairs Reform |
| Message | OOC: MTPU; No, pretty much everyone, except perhaps Malivia and Barnwood have stopped trying to get any of Dovani, it's moved onto Vascania now. NPP; Had we not had WW1 then there's a good chance the Socialist Party could have started really winning, it was only because of the world wars that the government was able to pass laws that limited the powers of socialists and trade unions. The Cold War did'nt exactly help either, if it was'nt for the cold war we'd probably not have the disgraceful title as the only civilized western country that does'nt have an influential (as in holding legislative positions) socialist or social democratic party. And I don't think the Civil War was really a revolution, failed or not, it was just a bunch of racist white men who did'nt want to accept racial equality and give up slave labour. |
| Date | 01:56:08, July 24, 2008 CET | From | Anti-Federalists of Free Sekowo | To | Debating the AFFS 031.2610 Foreign Affairs Reform |
| Message | OOC: I was about to agree with NPP. A revolution is when it succeeds, civil war when it fails. :p |
| Date | 01:57:06, July 24, 2008 CET | From | Anti-Federalists of Free Sekowo | To | Debating the AFFS 031.2610 Foreign Affairs Reform |
| Message | OOC: Umm... way to ignore a lot of the issues. That's like calling what's happening in Iraq a religious war. Not gonna fly, sorry. You're wrong. |
| Date | 02:10:25, July 24, 2008 CET | From | 帝国公明党 (Teikoku Kōmeitō) | To | Debating the AFFS 031.2610 Foreign Affairs Reform |
| Message | OOC: Oh I know there was more involved, but when it comes down to it slavery was one of the main issues involved. On a side note I consider Lincoln one of the worst presidents in our history. |
| Date | 02:15:02, July 24, 2008 CET | From | Anti-Federalists of Free Sekowo | To | Debating the AFFS 031.2610 Foreign Affairs Reform |
| Message | OOC: I disagree. (concerning the first point.) I agree on the second. Good /man/, bad president. He was a big imperialist, and expanded the government a LOT. So much for the Constitution. Slogging through the last of the colony threads. Bleah. |
| Date | 02:22:31, July 24, 2008 CET | From | Anti-Federalists of Free Sekowo | To | Debating the AFFS 031.2610 Foreign Affairs Reform |
| Message | OOC: I disagree. (concerning the first point.) I agree on the second. Good /man/, bad president. He was a big imperialist, and expanded the government a LOT. So much for the Constitution. Slogging through the last of the colony threads. Bleah. |
| Date | 02:24:42, July 24, 2008 CET | From | Anti-Federalists of Free Sekowo | To | Debating the AFFS 031.2610 Foreign Affairs Reform |
| Message | OOC: Finished the last colony thread. Looks about 50 years old, with our worrisome Barnwood nowhere to be seen. Unless I'm mistaken, treating Trigunia the same way now would be like treating Germany now in the same manner we did in '39. An update on other fronts would be nice. Besides, if talks fail, they fail. But at least they happened, eh? |
| Date | 03:31:43, July 24, 2008 CET | From | 帝国公明党 (Teikoku Kōmeitō) | To | Debating the AFFS 031.2610 Foreign Affairs Reform |
| Message | OOC: Actually we changed our attitude towards Trgunia already. I've been treating Trigunia as part of a whole IE Keris/UKSR. Barnwood is more active in the things about Vascania. But yeah, try talks first, then when they fail make things go BOOM! I'm kidding partially, while obviously we would have to be in conflict, I like to try to do as little actual damage as possible while doing the most damage to the enemies military power. |
| Date | 04:02:54, July 24, 2008 CET | From | Anti-Federalists of Free Sekowo | To | Debating the AFFS 031.2610 Foreign Affairs Reform |
| Message | OOC: Unlike others, I noticed. When was the whole theoscientist episode? I can't find it, and I get the feeling my party is too young to know about it anyway. So, sticking with the plan. Talks BEFORE we get to a pan-Terran war. Or even a pan-Dovani/Keris war. |
| Date | 04:17:12, July 24, 2008 CET | From | 帝国公明党 (Teikoku Kōmeitō) | To | Debating the AFFS 031.2610 Foreign Affairs Reform |
| Message | OOC: The theoscientist thing actually happened only a few days ago. I've actually been trying to find it, but I don't remember where it was. Oh, and it would be a Greater Dovani-Vascania war. Keris is essentially siding with us as being a part of Greater Dovani. Now since I'm probably the first one to use the term Greater Dovani I suppose I should explain what that is. Greater Dovani refers to the continent of Dovani, the island/continent of Indrala and the Subcontinents of Keris, Squibble and Vascania. |
| Date | 04:27:56, July 24, 2008 CET | From | Anti-Federalists of Free Sekowo | To | Debating the AFFS 031.2610 Foreign Affairs Reform |
| Message | OOC: Squibble, eh? What of the Jewish colony? Certainly against us. I think there's much to be said for a conference. |
| Date | 04:36:55, July 24, 2008 CET | From | 帝国公明党 (Teikoku Kōmeitō) | To | Debating the AFFS 031.2610 Foreign Affairs Reform |
| Message | OOC: The Beiteynese/Jewish colony is the Southern half of Squibble. Greater Dovani is more a concept, not something that is actually uniteable at the present time. Unfortunately it's been my experience that the conferences usually end up in two sides at war, or multiple sides insulting each other and threatening war. |
| Date | 07:39:53, July 24, 2008 CET | From | Anti-Federalists of Free Sekowo | To | Debating the AFFS 031.2610 Foreign Affairs Reform |
| Message | OOC: Well, I'm a different breed than others, and while it's just one? One is a lot better than none, and I'm pretty good at hunting down IC allies off-forum. |
| Date | 08:08:43, July 24, 2008 CET | From | 帝国公明党 (Teikoku Kōmeitō) | To | Debating the AFFS 031.2610 Foreign Affairs Reform |
| Message | OOC: True, but when Beiyteynu is involved, it tends to go down pretty fast. I've been thinking about who we're actually allied with, and we actually have multiple levels of allies, that is some are closer the others. Though I'd say our closest ally is Lourenne. Actualy the relationship between Sekowo and Lourenne is strinkingly similiar in many ways to American-Canadian relations. |
| Date | 17:53:28, July 24, 2008 CET | From | Anti-Federalists of Free Sekowo | To | Debating the AFFS 031.2610 Foreign Affairs Reform |
| Message | OOC: True. I'll see what I can do from an international perspective. Place Beiteynu in a hot-spot. Pressure into peace, y'know? |
| Date | 18:02:47, July 24, 2008 CET | From | Revolutionary State Socialist Party | To | Debating the AFFS 031.2610 Foreign Affairs Reform |
| Message | OOC: You all talk about imperialism as if its a bad thing :D Anywho, about the task at hand. I feel the current world state of affairs is entirely dervived from OOC. People upset that we did all this stuff and they wern't paying attention at the time. I'm glad they've layed off a bit, but we need to maintain the status quo as a stand against infusing OOC with IC. |
| Date | 18:04:01, July 24, 2008 CET | From | Revolutionary State Socialist Party | To | Debating the AFFS 031.2610 Foreign Affairs Reform |
| Message | OOC: And random fun fact of the day, back when DSP and I had over 50%, we thought about authorizing a nuclear carpet bombing of Barnwood's pet country, to kill him off once and for all :D |
| Date | 00:17:17, July 25, 2008 CET | From | Anti-Federalists of Free Sekowo | To | Debating the AFFS 031.2610 Foreign Affairs Reform |
| Message | OOC: Hmm... Well, I think I'll try off-forum IC intervention if this passes, eh? |
| Date | 00:36:04, July 25, 2008 CET | From | 帝国公明党 (Teikoku Kōmeitō) | To | Debating the AFFS 031.2610 Foreign Affairs Reform |
| Message | OOC: I'm still not really sure diplomacy is gonna work, I mean when it comes down to it it's like MTPU says, they're pisy at us because we had a good diea and they missed out on things. |
| Date | 02:07:45, July 25, 2008 CET | From | Anti-Federalists of Free Sekowo | To | Debating the AFFS 031.2610 Foreign Affairs Reform |
| Message | OOC: Well, I work with the off-forum folks. They're (more) sensible. It makes a big difference. I almost had Trigunia declaring peace and withdrawing... then they had a revolution, rendering it moot. :p Reasonable people exist. You RP IC privately, make the backdoor deals, and then after forming a coalition, push it through before the opposition has a chance to react. |
| Date | 02:24:07, July 25, 2008 CET | From | 帝国公明党 (Teikoku Kōmeitō) | To | Debating the AFFS 031.2610 Foreign Affairs Reform |
| Message | OOC: Oh believe me I know how to do that. Actually I had a deal with Trigunia before they were going to declare war on us, but then, as you mentioned, they ahd a revolution so it did'nt matter anymore. |
| Date | 07:39:42, July 25, 2008 CET | From | Anti-Federalists of Free Sekowo | To | Debating the AFFS 031.2610 Foreign Affairs Reform |
| Message | OOC: Then we'll do it. End of debate, ja? |
| Date | 08:38:18, July 25, 2008 CET | From | 帝国公明党 (Teikoku Kōmeitō) | To | Debating the AFFS 031.2610 Foreign Affairs Reform |
| Message | OOC: Go ahead, though I really don't think we should recognize Beiteynu's claims, since that will open a virtual pandora's box on us, but.. |
| Date | 18:06:22, July 25, 2008 CET | From | Anti-Federalists of Free Sekowo | To | Debating the AFFS 031.2610 Foreign Affairs Reform |
| Message | Moving to a vote. |
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Voting
| Vote | Seats | |||
| yes | Total Seats: 187 | |||
| no | Total Seats: 297 | |||
| abstain | Total Seats: 116 |
| Random fact: Particracy is set in the fictional world of Terra, which mirrors the real world of today and yet is not quite like it. |
| Random quote: "Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius, and a lot of courage, to move in the opposite direction." - Albert Einstein |