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Bill: Stopping The Race To The Bottom
Details
Status[?]: passed
Votes: This is an ordinary bill. It requires more yes votes than no votes. This bill will not pass any sooner than the deadline.
Voting deadline: August 2126
Description[?]:
| A minimum wage that shall also be a living wage, to ensure that every Lodamunian who puts in a hard day of work has enough money to support his/her family without going hungry. |
Proposals
Article 1
Proposal[?] to change The nation's policy on minimum wage regulation.
Old value:: There is no provision for a minimum wage.
Current: There shall be a minimum wage at a level considered a "living wage," well above the poverty line for a full time worker.
Proposed: There shall be a minimum wage at a level that a full time worker on it can support a family of four without falling under the poverty line.
Debate
These messages have been posted to debate on this bill:
| Date | 22:44:34, October 01, 2005 CET | From |  Tuesday Is Coming | To | Debating the Stopping The Race To The Bottom |
| Message | OOC: Due to the minimum wage, my town has only $5.15(US minimum wage) jobs, and it is nearly impossible to get one. There are 17000 college students, many of which seek employment, and this has saturated the job market. I would like to get a job, and am willing to accept less than $5.15, economically, I should be able to negotiate with an employer for a lower wage, and eventually get to a point where I either get hired or refuse to work for less than a certain amount. However, it is currently illegal to do so. I want to work for reasons other than money as well, it would give me something productive to do with my spare time, get some more experience, and help to add some structure to my schedule. Supposedly, the minimum wage exists to "protect" people like me. But the fact is that I would gladly take less right now. My funds are limited and any extra income would reduce my future debt burden and allow me some "luxuries" right now(such as gasoline/car expenses, alcohol, relationship expenses, etc.). If I couldnt get by with less than $5.15, I would refuse to work for less than $5.15. There is no need for a "big brother" one-size-fits-all approach to wages. Thanks to the suplus of labor/shortage of jobs, jobs are distributed based on "who you know." In high school, the market wage was above the minimum, I was able to get a job that started at $5.50 and work my way up based on ability, effort, and integrity(eventually taking on greater responsibilities in projection, and recieving $6). That isnt possible here because I simply can't get a job. |
| Date | 23:46:46, October 01, 2005 CET | From | National People's Gang | To | Debating the Stopping The Race To The Bottom |
| Message | So 17000 students get jobs at a dollar a day when businesses relocate from elsewhere and 17000 people, who couldn't afford to go to college when they were young, lose their jobs. |
| Date | 23:59:16, October 01, 2005 CET | From | Tuesday Is Coming | To | Debating the Stopping The Race To The Bottom |
| Message | The economy isnt a fixed pie. If some people gain, this doesnt mean that other people have to lose. What justifies preventing students who are willing to work from being hired by businesses willing to hire them? Many students dont want to work, but of those that do many are willing to work for about $4. Most of the jobs in the town are service oriented anyway, goods aren't produced in factories here. Things are typically how things are in the US, fast food, movie theatres, gas stations, etc. These businesses can't relocate like you say. However, there would definitely be an increase in the local economy if unskilled labor was permitted to work for less. Students would have more places to buy things from, and businesses would be able to afford to hire more people. |
| Date | 00:00:00, October 02, 2005 CET | From | Tuesday Is Coming | To | Debating the Stopping The Race To The Bottom |
| Message | Let me get this straight however: Your justification for a minimum wage is that it drives away jobs? |
| Date | 03:51:30, October 02, 2005 CET | From | Cooperative Commonwealth Federation | To | Debating the Stopping The Race To The Bottom |
| Message | Some jurisdictions have separate minimum wages: one for full-time adult workers, and a lower rate for part-time young workers. I think the rate in British Columbia is something like C$7 for msot jobs, butu C$5 for young people working up to a certain number of hours per month. I'm not certain that this is a good idea, but it's aimed at exactly the problem raised by TIC. Other jurisdictions have lower rates for servers (who can earn tips) etc. But the real purpose here is to keep up wages to a basic minimum for full-time, adult workers who form, we hope, the majority of the workforce. |
| Date | 06:00:38, October 02, 2005 CET | From | Tuesday Is Coming | To | Debating the Stopping The Race To The Bottom |
| Message | One of the problems with a two-level minimum wage is that it discriminates against those on the top level. The essence of a minimum wage is the premise that a worker is not intelligent enough to demand a wage sufficient for them to live on. I like to think that we are, as there is a point where I would not work for less, about $3(take home after taxes, approx $4 beforehand). Everyone values their time at a certain level, and they wont work for less than this, ((in the US)) you would be hard pressed to find anyone willing to work for a dollar per day, even if it were legal. |
| Date | 19:21:27, October 02, 2005 CET | From | Cooperative Commonwealth Federation | To | Debating the Stopping The Race To The Bottom |
| Message | Oh come. I see your argument, but the "essence of a minimum wage" is not that the worker is unintelligent, it is that workers and employers do not bargain on an equal playing field, and that workers need some form of protection from exploitation. Your analysis ignores the element of power, assuming that there is no such thing as coercion. |
| Date | 19:43:36, October 02, 2005 CET | From | Tuesday Is Coming | To | Debating the Stopping The Race To The Bottom |
| Message | The minimum wage is the coercion. Employers and workers do have an "equal playing field," each offers something that the other wants, to the mutual advantage of both. The minimum wage, in theory and in practice, does more harm than good and harms the very people it is supposed to protect. PTN has already stated that it drives away jobs, which is hardly a good thing from my perspective. OOC As the minimum wage is a law that I come into contact with in RL, I have witnessed firsthand the fact that, though it is intended to help me, the only time it has effect is if it reduces my options for employment. IC If demand for labor sets a wage above the minimum wage, then it will not have an effect, the market wage will be higher, and the unemployement will fall. If it sets a wage below the minimum wage, the market wage will be set to the minimum wage, and those attempting to supply labor will not be able to find companies willing to buy it. This is how it works out in economic theory, and this is how it actually works in real life. Coercion(such as a price control) works to distort the market, and it attempts to ignore the laws of supply and demand. Supply and demand will function whether wanted or not, and they will generally exacerbate whatever problem you are attempting to fix. |
| Date | 22:58:42, October 02, 2005 CET | From | National People's Gang | To | Debating the Stopping The Race To The Bottom |
| Message | The "market" is not god. God is not the "market". If the TiCs weren't in any position of authority, their valiant attempts to see the whole of human development through the myopic lenses provided by a couple of hundred years of "capitalism" and a handful of evangelical theorists would be quaint. However, their campaigning for election based on such nonsense is distinctly chilling. |
| Date | 23:39:10, October 02, 2005 CET | From | Tuesday Is Coming | To | Debating the Stopping The Race To The Bottom |
| Message | Excuse me? |
| Date | 23:53:43, October 02, 2005 CET | From | Inhabitants of Wantuni | To | Debating the Stopping The Race To The Bottom |
| Message | "If the TiCs weren't in any position of authority, their valiant attempts to see the whole of human development through the myopic lenses provided by a couple of hundred years of "capitalism" and a handful of evangelical theorists would be quaint." Well, if you look at the whole of human development, you will notice, that during the age of globalism, the amount of people living in poverty worldwide was not only reduced relatively (in % to population), but also in absolute numbers - for the first time in history! How do you explain that? |
| Date | 15:41:20, October 15, 2005 CET | From | National People's Gang | To | Debating the Stopping The Race To The Bottom |
| Message | Cooked books. |
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Voting
| Vote | Seats | ||||
| yes |
Total Seats: 135 | ||||
| no |
Total Seats: 55 | ||||
| abstain | Total Seats: 110 |
| Random fact: "Doxxing", or the publishing of personally identifiable information about another player without permission, is forbidden. |
| Random quote: "You can't give the government the power to do good without also giving it the power to do bad, in fact, to do anything it wants." - Harry Browne |