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Bill: Tolerance Bill 2713

Details

Submitted by[?]: Rutanian Elitist Party

Status[?]: defeated

Votes: This is an ordinary bill. It requires more yes votes than no votes. This bill will not pass any sooner than the deadline.

Voting deadline: October 2714

Description[?]:

In the Commonwealth of Rutania homosexuality is tolerated and accepted. So the REP proposes that homosexuality must be accepted in the military too. There is nor reason to hide these tendencies, because homosexuality is not a behaviour which should be hidden

Proposals

Debate

These messages have been posted to debate on this bill:

Date12:34:38, February 17, 2009 CET
From Rutanian Heritage Party
ToDebating the Tolerance Bill 2713
MessageWe fervently oppose - the government should not force the people of Rutania to tolerate a life-style traditionally considered subversive and unhealthy, and accept homosexuals as their 'equals'. Federal government law allowing homosexuals in the military is tantamount to social engineering - the 'REP' are imposing their abstract, idealistic 'egalitarian' ideology on the populace, and through government sponsorship of this 'progressive' ideology, those who dissent will inevitably be labeled 'bigots', or some other politically correct buzz-word.
This is another nail in the coffin of the traditional family and our nation's moral order. The 'REP' seem determined to undermine the institutions and traditions that comprise the foundation of our society, seeking to subjugate these natural developements with a secular-humanist, 'rational', egalitarian order.
If this legislation passes, and open-homosexuals are allowed free access to our military, what's next? Do we allow pedophiles?

Date18:32:28, February 17, 2009 CET
From National Equality Party
ToDebating the Tolerance Bill 2713
MessagePedophilia is a sex crime, not a lifestyle choice! Homosexuality is a lifestyle choice. We can't punish people for who they love. Your so called traditional values only lead to hate and persucution. We at the NEP will fully back and support this bill.

Date19:32:29, February 17, 2009 CET
From National Unity Party
ToDebating the Tolerance Bill 2713
MessageWe believe that as long as people are not forced to be subject to homosexual behavior, this bill will allow more Patriotic men and women to serve their country, even if they choose to be homosexual. Therefore, we support this bill.

Date22:43:34, February 17, 2009 CET
From Rutanian Heritage Party
ToDebating the Tolerance Bill 2713
Message"Pedophilia is a sex crime..."
That's what was traditionally said about homosexuality, also, but we have experienced a liberalization of sexuality since that time, and, as such, what was once an abhorrent act is now widely thought of as a perfectly acceptable life-style choice.
In the modern age, people accept the concepts of 'equality' and 'egalitarianism' without question, as if they are a given, or some sort of universal 'truth'. The arguments underpinning these abstract ideologies is all too simple - 'everyone should be equal because equality is good', or 'everyone is born equal, but society makes them un-equal'. There is no inherent reason why we should prefer this relatively new idea over hundreds and hundreds of years of historical precedent and moral traditions. It is not 'reason' or ideology that compels people - it is tradition, custom, culture, and passion, and these things are a far better guide to the future than abstract, untested theories.
Never has a society existed that did not regulate at least some form of sexual behavior considered morally indecent. If the federal government of this nation attempts to manufacture such a society - free from morals, traditions, and time-honored institutions like the family - the result will be social anarchy, rather than the egalitarian Utopia the 'REP' seem to believe in.

Date13:45:17, February 18, 2009 CET
From Rutanian Elitist Party
ToDebating the Tolerance Bill 2713
Message1. A party which is elitist cannot be egalitarian. The REP is elitist, definitely not egalitarian...
2. However we advocate the negative liberty, which in an over-simplified manner means that each individual is free but this freedom does not enable to harm the freedom of other individuals. Homosexuality - as the NEP pointed out - is a lifestyle and it does not hurt the others freedom. Paedophilia is an act of violence, thus punishable.
3. The criticism of Rousseau's claim - 'everyone is born equal, but society makes them un-equal' - we agree. Nevertheless our ideas are not based on these insane ideas about liberty, but on a liberalist tradition advocated by Locke, Mill, Berlin...
4. I do not know whether the representatives of the RPP have read an awful book entitled Mein Kampf, written by a guy called Adolf Hitler. but the statement of the RPP - "It is not 'reason' or ideology that compels people - it is tradition, custom, culture, and passion, and these things are a far better guide to the future than abstract, untested theories." - is very similar to the statements of this book.
5. If I may analyse this sentence further, I might say that it contains a completely contradictory fusion of the ideas of Edmund Burke and Adolf Hitler. Unfortunately this fusion is deeply inadequate and unsuccessful, but that is - as they say - that!

Lord Klausenburg,
Chairman, REP

Date13:49:40, February 18, 2009 CET
From Rutanian Elitist Party
ToDebating the Tolerance Bill 2713
MessageOh, and isn't the statement, according to which tradition and custom, culture and passion should guide to the future, an abstract theory? Because it seem to me that it is...

Date09:36:33, February 19, 2009 CET
From Rutanian Heritage Party
ToDebating the Tolerance Bill 2713
Message"...I do not know whether the representatives of the RPP have read an awful book entitled Mein Kampf, written by a guy called Adolf Hitler. but the statement of the RPP - "It is not 'reason' or ideology that compels people - it is tradition, custom, culture, and passion, and these things are a far better guide to the future than abstract, untested theories." - is very similar to the statements of this book."

Many members of the RPP have read Mein Kampf, but we reject the REP's vague insinuation that we are a party of Nazi-sympathizers. We certainly do not adhere to Nazism as an ideology. In fact, many of our political positions - particularly those relating to government power - are the antithesis of Hitler's doctrine. The 'REP' makes an astute observation in pointing out that our rejection of reason, rationalism, and abstraction is similar to fascist and Nazi concerns, but this alone does not mean we subscribe to Nazism.

"If I may analyse this sentence further, I might say that it contains a completely contradictory fusion of the ideas of Edmund Burke and Adolf Hitler. Unfortunately this fusion is deeply inadequate and unsuccessful."

Indeed, Edmund Burke was the grandfather of traditional conservatism and, therefore, an inspiration for many members of the 'RPP'. It would be accurate to suggest that our statement is reminiscent of Burke's own arguments regarding these issues. The 'REP's claim that we have combined contradictory elements of Nazism and traditional Burkean conservatism, however, is not as accurate. Hitler's emphatic opposition to the ideological developments of the 'enlightenment', and his preference for tradition, were shared by Burke - whilst the two are worlds apart philosophically, a few of their concerns can be seen to overlap. We do not feel that we have committed a philosophical paradox, as none of our statements are inspired by Hitler's Nazism, and any reference to any of his positions is, we assure the 'REP', completely accidental.

Whilst the 'REP' may not subscribe to the ideology of egalitarianism, per se, their approach to the issue of homosexuality involves different means to the same end. Regardless of the 'REP's ideological reasons behind this legislation, the result is that homosexuals will be conferred equal rights to heterosexuals. This should pose a great problem for anyone not brainwashed by the derivative ideologies of the enlightenment.

"...isn't the statement, according to which tradition and custom, culture and passion should guide to the future, an abstract theory?"

Absolutely not. Tradition, custom, culture, and institutions are not 'abstract' - they are naturally-occurring social associations that have developed as the base elements of civilization and, having stood the tests of time for hundreds and sometimes thousands of years, have collectively formed the cornerstone of our civilized society. Rather than being born in the minds of philosophers, these fundamental components of society were born from human nature itself - the fact that no civilization in history has existed with no traditions, no culture, and no family unit is testament enough of this.
We trust in this long history of social institutions as the most valuable source of wisdom to guide our nation into the future, rather than relying on the starry-eyed, ideological hocus of the enlightenment philosophers.

Date13:54:08, February 19, 2009 CET
From Rutanian Elitist Party
ToDebating the Tolerance Bill 2713
MessageThe REP took knowledge of the arguments of the RPP, accepts them, however does not agree with them.
We agree with the description of the traditions customs but we have to point out that did systematic description wouldn't have been possible without ration, and the process of abstractionization. That is why we regard the stance of RPP an abstract theory which nonetheless, might have historical support.--as the classical liberal model also has.
So we do not accept the aggressive disapproval of liberalism.

Date20:35:33, February 19, 2009 CET
From Rutanian Restoration Party
ToDebating the Tolerance Bill 2713
MessageThe Orange Party believes the current policies regarding this matter are sufficient.

Date22:29:11, February 19, 2009 CET
From Imperium Party
ToDebating the Tolerance Bill 2713
MessageWe hold the same views as the OP, homosexuality is allowed in the military there is no doubt about that. But what would any straight Rutanian soldier do if they see homosexual behaviour or acts being performed right in front of them, lets be honest not everyone in the military is that tolerent on homosexuals.

Jorge Martinez
Minister of Defence

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Voting

Vote Seats
yes
    

Total Seats: 36

no
   

Total Seats: 663

abstain
 

Total Seats: 0


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