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Bill: Legalize Torture
Details
Submitted by[?]: Conservative Party of Telamon
Status[?]: defeated
Votes: This is an ordinary bill. It requires more yes votes than no votes. This bill will not pass any sooner than the deadline.
Voting deadline: February 2044
Description[?]:
| Sometimes Torture is necessary for National Security. I propose the Legalization of Torture for that reason. |
Proposals
Article 1
Proposal[?] to change The use of torture for obtaining information.
Old value:: Torture is never allowed.
Current: Torture is never allowed.
Proposed: Suspects can only be tortured under grave emergencies where the information is vital.
Debate
These messages have been posted to debate on this bill:
| Date | 19:53:42, April 27, 2005 CET | From | United Liberal Alliance | To | Debating the Legalize Torture |
| Message | you need a proposal for it to do anything - remember? |
| Date | 19:57:58, April 27, 2005 CET | From | To | Debating the Legalize Torture |
| Message | Thanks for letting us get more votes by voting down torture again! Torture is unacceptable in a free society. It is just a means of forcing people to make false confessions and penalize innocent people. |
| Date | 20:00:44, April 27, 2005 CET | From | Conservative Party of Telamon | To | Debating the Legalize Torture |
| Message | yes i know, im just busy doing other things that it takes me a while before i add the proposal |
| Date | 20:08:47, April 27, 2005 CET | From | To | Debating the Legalize Torture |
| Message | Torture is unnecessary to our country's security and leads to as many misleading, flase confessions that could harm soldiers and the like as it does to helpful, truthful confessions. |
| Date | 20:10:33, April 27, 2005 CET | From | Conservative Party of Telamon | To | Debating the Legalize Torture |
| Message | Not true, as Information is tested to see if it is correct. The country generally looks at the information before going after it. |
| Date | 20:12:34, April 27, 2005 CET | From | To | Debating the Legalize Torture |
| Message | If you can test the info before useing it, you can also get it in some other way. Would you approve torture if you were the one to be tortured? |
| Date | 20:16:56, April 27, 2005 CET | From | Conservative Party of Telamon | To | Debating the Legalize Torture |
| Message | Would you approve Abortion, of you were the fetus? |
| Date | 20:17:31, April 27, 2005 CET | From | Conservative Party of Telamon | To | Debating the Legalize Torture |
| Message | Of course you wouldn't, but the mother's life is in danger.... so she needs that abortion...so it doesn't really matter what you think. |
| Date | 20:28:51, April 27, 2005 CET | From | To | Debating the Legalize Torture |
| Message | If I was a less than three months old fetus I would not have an opinion, because I would not have a functional brain. But you did not answer my question. |
| Date | 20:33:32, April 27, 2005 CET | From | Conservative Party of Telamon | To | Debating the Legalize Torture |
| Message | My point is, that it does not matter that I would think. If it will help the national security of the nation, i don't have a much of a say in the matter, and would be surprised if they didn;t...i wouldn't complain though. As for alternatives, those are always tried first, torture has never been the first method of getting information. It is generally gone by. 1. Information Known. 2. Information given by citizens. 3. Information given by informants. 4. If all else fails, torture is the only way. Then you check if the data adds up. Now tell me, is it still so wrong? |
| Date | 20:38:13, April 27, 2005 CET | From | To | Debating the Legalize Torture |
| Message | Yes it is. Help the security pf the nation indeed. If the state uses terrorist methods, then it is no better than terrorists and does not deserve to be protected! Except for, if you don't get reliable information there is no gain to getting any information at all. Oh, and torture was the first, and often only, way of getting information for the police until the beginning of the nineteenth century. |
| Date | 20:42:40, April 27, 2005 CET | From | Conservative Party of Telamon | To | Debating the Legalize Torture |
| Message | 1. Sometimes you have to speak their knowledge before they understand... I cannot simply live in China and expect converse with them...i need to speak Mandarin first. 2. It was not the only way...because of huge leaps in communications, torture is no longer the main way of getting information. |
| Date | 20:48:40, April 27, 2005 CET | From | To | Debating the Legalize Torture |
| Message | 1. You don't make sense 2. It happened (often) that they relied entirely on information obtained by torture. And so they were a lot less effective than modern police. That was not an argument, I just pointed out a mistake in your post. |
| Date | 21:11:54, April 27, 2005 CET | From | Conservative Party of Telamon | To | Debating the Legalize Torture |
| Message | 1. You wouldn't understand....you would rather be kind, then smart. 2. Ok, i know that, but we are talking modern. The past does have a significant say. But i'm sure a main reason they did torture, was probably because it was the most effective way at the time. With the leap in communications and tactics, there are more ways now. |
| Date | 21:24:02, April 27, 2005 CET | From | To | Debating the Legalize Torture |
| Message | While national security is an admirable goal I do not agree with your argument. Every civilized country has outlawed torture, Telamon should be no different. We cannot punish those who have not been convicted and I would find torture to be both cruel and unusual. I applaud your goals, but vote against your method. |
| Date | 21:31:48, April 27, 2005 CET | From | Conservative Party of Telamon | To | Debating the Legalize Torture |
| Message | name the countries that have outlawed it...i'm interested. Plus normally torture is reserved for those, that do, or know someone that would have the information. |
| Date | 21:52:22, April 27, 2005 CET | From | To | Debating the Legalize Torture |
| Message | I haven't researched the countries on here, I admit I was thinking of real countries when I posted that. Namely the US and EU |
| Date | 00:10:33, April 28, 2005 CET | From | Conservative Party of Telamon | To | Debating the Legalize Torture |
| Message | the US never outlawed torture... just because it's not reported on the news, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. as for the EU...i have no idea... but i'm sure some of the members never outlawed it. |
| Date | 01:28:08, April 28, 2005 CET | From | To | Debating the Legalize Torture |
| Message | No, to belong to the EU a country must neither torture nor employ the death penalty. Torture is expressly forbidden in the US. Just because it happens behind the scenes doesn't make it legal. |
| Date | 01:29:07, April 28, 2005 CET | From | To | Debating the Legalize Torture |
| Message | Its all part of the Geneva Convention that the US and many other countries have signed on to. The philosophy is that it puts our soldiers at risk of being tortured if we torture our enemy's soldiers and that that risk is unacceptable. |
| Date | 01:39:18, April 28, 2005 CET | From | Conservative Party of Telamon | To | Debating the Legalize Torture |
| Message | I see what you mean.... But just because it's not nice, doesn't mean it's not crucial. |
| Date | 06:55:48, April 28, 2005 CET | From | To | Debating the Legalize Torture |
| Message | Conservatives: You said in reply to my post that the police quit using torture in criminal investigations because it is not effective. Why, then, should we bring about the same old ineffective system again? |
| Date | 07:29:19, April 28, 2005 CET | From | Partiya Nacionalnogo Progressa | To | Debating the Legalize Torture |
| Message | Let's return epoch of progress! Some torture with terrorists to save hundreds of people - we must legalize this. |
| Date | 21:25:07, April 28, 2005 CET | From | Conservative Party of Telamon | To | Debating the Legalize Torture |
| Message | ..? I said it wasn't as effective...because it was hard to analyze the data, to see if he's telling the truth or not. Now we can analyze it, before jumping in. Frankly, i don't see what the problem is. People like you, pose the greatest risk to the safety of our country. |
| Date | 12:10:56, April 29, 2005 CET | From | To | Debating the Legalize Torture |
| Message | People like me don't care very much about "the security of a country". People like you are the greatest risk to the security of our people, shich matters a lot more to me! |
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Voting
| Vote | Seats | |||
| yes | Total Seats: 53 | |||
| no | Total Seats: 30 | |||
| abstain | Total Seats: 0 |
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