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Bill: Treaty Withdrawal
Details
Submitted by[?]: Social Democratic Legend Party
Status[?]: defeated
Votes: This bill proposes the withdrawal from a treaty. It will require half of the legislature to vote in favor[?]. This bill will not pass any sooner than the deadline.
Voting deadline: June 3128
Description[?]:
| We want a reform from the 'Against Torture Treaty' so as to activate the reform 'Suspects can only be tortured under grave emergencies where the information is vital.' We believe this is crucial to national security. We don't want to use torture- in a perfect world we wouldn't have to. In a perfect world there would be no terror, no crimes, no desperation for truth. In a perfect world we would not have to turn to torture to save lives. BUT WE DO NOT LIVE IN A PERFECT WORLD! Sometimes we do have to resort to any means necessary to save lives. Yes, of course the person may feed us false information but if there are no other alternatives are we not supposed to take the risk? It is a shame that we do have to do things like this but the fact remains we do! The use of torture will remain heavily restricted and will only be put into action in extreme circumstances. It is unrealistic to fool yourself and lull yourself into thinking that we can continue like this. Baltusia is dancing on the top of a volcano. How long before something truly horrific happens that could have been prevented? The people of Baltusia look to us to protection! We must choose whether we honour them by doing all in our power to protect them or fail them and let them pay the ultimate price for it. I will leave this to debate for a while before voting and we can address all your issues. |
Proposals
Article 1
Withdraw from the Against Torture Treaty.
Debate
These messages have been posted to debate on this bill:
| Date | 23:36:54, May 24, 2011 CET | From | National Socialist Party | To | Debating the Treaty Withdrawal |
| Message | Torture is stupid, it will only lead to mass panic, false acusations, false information, and the feeling of insecurity all trough the country. This would be a tool of opresion against the people, the baltusian citizen doesnt want to be caged for his protection. Drop this idea,it wont do any good |
| Date | 14:34:35, May 25, 2011 CET | From | Baltusian Pantian Alliance | To | Debating the Treaty Withdrawal |
| Message | The BPA holds its opinion that we should not be held to any international treaties and will support withdrawal from any we can. |
| Date | 23:35:24, May 25, 2011 CET | From | Social Democratic Legend Party | To | Debating the Treaty Withdrawal |
| Message | Actually the thought that their government is there to protect them will give the people a sense of security. For far too long the world has been victim to terrorists and criminals who mock the good people. They do this by breaking laws and destroying lives. They commit the most unimaginable of crimes and then use our weaknesses and the law itself to hide behind. I want to make something very clear: this will be very severely limited and used very rarely. All this is is to ensure that we have a backup in very very extreme circumstances. This will mean families will not have to be torn apart by child abduction, the nation will be safe from terrorist attacks and countless lives will be saved in bombs etc. Evil is when a few good men stand by and do nothing! Well, this is the few good men doing SOMETHING! |
| Date | 02:20:04, May 26, 2011 CET | From | National Socialist Party | To | Debating the Treaty Withdrawal |
| Message | To go against torture is fundamental in baltusian society, its part of its history, we havent had a terrorist atack in 500 years, baltusia has built its power around understanding, and diplomacy. The NSP would like to enfatice that any sudden terrorist atack to force this bill will be responded with the whole strenght of the party. We wont standby as somo legislator tries to change the facts into their gain while hurting baltusians, the high council wont allow it, and the ss wont allow it. Dr. Miguel Gutierrez |
| Date | 06:46:25, May 26, 2011 CET | From | Baltusian Pantian Alliance | To | Debating the Treaty Withdrawal |
| Message | The Pantians have been here since 2069 and have seen plenty of torture supporting governments come to pass the NSP speaks without experience, but aside from that this should be more of an issue that Baltusia should not be tied to the tides of outside nations we should be able to do as our governance chooses within our own nation |
| Date | 12:54:24, May 26, 2011 CET | From | National Socialist Party | To | Debating the Treaty Withdrawal |
| Message | Its not about if we choose to show our support to other parties, and other countries, its about saying no to torture |
| Date | 19:03:27, May 26, 2011 CET | From | Social Democratic Legend Party | To | Debating the Treaty Withdrawal |
| Message | So, just because there hasn't been an attack in five hundred years that means there never will be another. Because we built our power around understanding that means there will never be an outside force that wants something we have and will not respond to negotiation or diplomacy or worse yet: some sociopath with no real motive who uses terrorism purely to cause chaos? The Social Democratic Legend Party is dedicated to one concept above all others and that is JUSTICE! Let me ask you something out of curiosity: what exactly do we do? Imagine a bomb has been planted in a crowded sports arena. We know who is responsible but they won't give us the location of the bomb. We've tried everything to no avail. Tens of thousands of innocent people are minutes from death. Do we not turn to torture as a last resort to save lives? It may not work. The person may not give us true information but it's the closest thing we have and at least we can say we tried! Instead of just standing there and allowing all those people to die to 'protect this MURDERER's human rights.' If they wanted to keep their human rights they should not have committed such a horrible crime. Or, another point: Imagine a kidnapping case. The police are searching for an innocent, beautiful four-year-old. They're the light of their parents' lives. But now they've been stolen away to be forced into a life of vice, drugs, child-prostitution and a myriad of other unimaginable things. The person doesn't want money, they're not fighting for a cause or making a statement- they want the child. We've captured them but they've hidden the child away somewhere. Do we torture them for the child's location or do we stand back and actively condemn this innocent child to death, disease and a life-time of hell? I want to make this abundantly clear: this is not something for ordinary, two-bit criminals. We will not be water-boarding some seventeen-year-old for spray-painting a wall. This will only be reserved for the very worst of crimes where there is no other option. We cannot continue going easy on these abominations. We cannot continue treating them like every other criminal! We must seek justice for our people. The situations i described are very real and happen all too frequently and if we do not take action to stop them we are just as much the monsters! |
| Date | 00:57:37, May 27, 2011 CET | From | National Socialist Party | To | Debating the Treaty Withdrawal |
| Message | A philosopher named socrates once said "it is better to be the reciver of an evil deed than the doer of that evil deed", or judicial system has all the resources it needs and all the inteligence it requires to find evidence trough investigation, even the military is a last resort tool in case of emergency. If there was an sport arena with a crowd and a bomb, we would evac the building asap. After that the criminals will be executed, but only after we make a clear line of investigation, until the real criminal is aprehended. Bottom line is that torture takes away all need of investigation, wich makes or judicial system a mokery, and an imitation of the spanish inquisition. If there is an horrendous crime, we must be good detectives to find the solution in a smart way, even if we witdraw from the treaty we will continue to vote against the legalisation of torture |
| Date | 23:25:41, May 27, 2011 CET | From | Social Democratic Legend Party | To | Debating the Treaty Withdrawal |
| Message | Well, what if there is literally minutes until the bomb explodes- killing thousands. There is no time to evacuate and even if we tried to it would cause mass hysteria. Obviously we could tell them not to panic and move in an orderly fashion but naturally they will worry. This will quickly lead to anarchy. People will be crushed, trampled, beaten etc. We could learn the location and end the crisis without the people even being aware. Of course, if the information is false then we will evacuate as there is no other option. Also, you still don't understand: this is an absolute last resort for EXTREME circumstances when there is VERY LIMITED TIME! Detective work will still be used to investigate murders, thefts etc. and the less urgent cases. We will only use torture when there is a matter of time and no other option! |
| Date | 02:51:36, May 28, 2011 CET | From | Baltusian Pantian Alliance | To | Debating the Treaty Withdrawal |
| Message | This is a debate more suited to the actual legislation right now the issue is that Baltusian government should not be shackled by international agreements the BPA wishes to keep power within our own administration. |
| Date | 19:05:25, May 28, 2011 CET | From | Social Democratic Legend Party | To | Debating the Treaty Withdrawal |
| Message | It will ne a debate of legislation but it can't be currently as this treaty forbids it. |
| Date | 19:18:58, May 28, 2011 CET | From | Social Democratic Legend Party | To | Debating the Treaty Withdrawal |
| Message | look, basically, this is asking one question: Do we want Justice or not? This is a chance to solve countless serious cases, save countless lives, protect the innocent, destroy criminality, protect our nation, end wars and make the world a better place. We must all make a decision: Do we commit one regrettable yet necessary evil to prevent thousands more or do we just hand our great nation over to the criminals? |
| Date | 05:49:49, May 29, 2011 CET | From | Unión Democrática | To | Debating the Treaty Withdrawal |
| Message | Ticking time-bombs and scenarios more fit for films than real life. I would like to point out to my esteemed colleagues from the Social Democratic Legend Party that their arguments in favor of torture are, at best, absurd. I hate to use that word, "absurd," but no other really will do. Torture, at its best, takes time, which, with an unwilling subject makes the "time bomb" aspect of the SDLP's argument null. But, supposing time were on the side of the inquisitor, what then? The subject of torture is just as likely to fabricate information to make the torture cease. With the end result the same if the police had not resorted to torture; the bomb explodes and civilians are killed and injured. This has been pointed out by my colleagues from the SDLP. My question is why? More cases, on the whole, are solved through old-fashioned police work. Turning informants, producing evidence, observation. Torture threatens these time-tested techniques. If we introduce torture into the formula, we become the criminal element and thereby eliminate an immense power in our corner. To simplify; a criminal is turned against his conspiracy by offers from the government; immunity, lowered sentences and the like. With torture, we become like the organized crime bosses and terrorist masterminds we despise. We become the monsters that terrorists and mafia dons want us to be. With the classic police work that has worked for Baltusia for centuries, we promote the fairness of society. With torture, we lower ourselves to the level of animals. I urge you all to vote against our withdrawal from this treaty. -Prime Minister Caroline Walters. |
| Date | 20:23:51, May 29, 2011 CET | From | Social Democratic Legend Party | To | Debating the Treaty Withdrawal |
| Message | I have already addressed these issues. The subject may give us false information but this is better than no information at all and should we not try if there is no other option? I keep having to repeat myself: this will NOT replace detective work! Investigation will still be used in 99% of cases. The use of torture is to be used only in extreme circumstances and NEVER as a punishment! It's time Baltusia woke up and realised that as soon as someone commits a horrendous crime they lose any human rights. It's time we STOPPED GOING EASY on these CRIMINALS and ALLOWING them to TAKE ADVANTAGE of our laws and put some FEAR INTO THEIR HEARTS. LET THEM FEAR THE FULL FORCE OF JUSTICE!! |
| Date | 00:29:09, May 31, 2011 CET | From | Unión Democrática | To | Debating the Treaty Withdrawal |
| Message | TORTURE IS NOT JUSTICE. |
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Voting
| Vote | Seats | ||||
| yes | Total Seats: 45 | ||||
| no |
Total Seats: 316 | ||||
| abstain | Total Seats: 39 |
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