We are working on a brand new version of the game! If you want to stay informed, read our blog and register for our mailing list.
Bill: Rildanor and Kanjor Negotiations
Details
Submitted by[?]: Front Canrillaise
Status[?]: passed
Votes: This bill is a resolution. It requires more yes votes than no votes. This bill will not pass any sooner than the deadline.
Voting deadline: March 3260
Description[?]:
A meeting of Rildanorian and Kanjorain delegates on the future of the relationship and possible union. Issues: 1. National name 2. Monarchy: 2.1 --- Official royal title; 2.2 --- Son or daughter to succeed and unite the thrones; 2.3 --- Rotating residency of monarchy; 2.4 --- Official Royal House name 3. Shared responsibilities: Foreign policy, military, etc 3.1 --- How is military policy and military action determined? Simple majority vote in both governments? Cabinet support necessary? 3.2 --- Imperial Cabinet: a simple union of the two provincial governments? 4. Independent responsibilities: all other issues are provincial Other: - Common motto? - Common flag? |
Proposals
Debate
These messages have been posted to debate on this bill:
Date | 05:33:52, February 13, 2012 CET | From | Front Canrillaise | To | Debating the Rildanor and Kanjor Negotiations |
Message | Many centuries ago Rildanor and Kanjor had a similar arrangement. Back then we chose to call it something like "The Union of South Seleya (Rildanor)" (or subsitute Kanjor in brackets). But we can just choose a combination of both Rildanor or Kanjor, such as Rilkanne, Canrille, Riljour, Kannor, etc. Any suggestions would be great, but I think I might be partial to Canrille. It just sounds more French. As for official royal title, we can just incorporate existing titles. E.g. Baudouin III, Roi de Kanjor et la Tondelle, Roi des Rildanoriennes, Empereur de la Noumonde. What do you both think? |
Date | 20:01:02, February 13, 2012 CET | From | Alliance de l'Avenir de Canrille | To | Debating the Rildanor and Kanjor Negotiations |
Message | I like Canrille quite a lot. Perhaps a formal title along the lines of L'Empire de Canrille (or something Imperial). As for the titles, I would assume that the Monarchs would get the existing, as well as new titles: Noëlle, Imperatrice de Canrille et la Noumonde, Reine des Rildanoriennes, Reine de Kanjor et La Tondelle. So for Baudouin it would be: Baudouin III, Empereur de Canrille et la Noumonde, Roi des Rildanoriennes, Roi de Kanjor et La Tondelle. I suppose that for now, Noëlle would remain the Empress of the new Union state, with Baudouin as Emperor separately. Kanjor would retain Noëlle as Head of State, Rildanor with Baudouin. Their heir would be the first Monarch of both countries. Is this acceptable? |
Date | 20:04:56, February 13, 2012 CET | From | Alliance de l'Avenir de Canrille | To | Debating the Rildanor and Kanjor Negotiations |
Message | Oh. I forgot: Responsibilities: I suppose that the Foreign Affairs of the two Kingdoms within the Empire could be handled much in the way that our respective Kingdoms handle the régions. Kanjor has five régions, each with a state government. These states are free to run themselves as they choose, but the Kanjorienne National Government can overrule them, and also "lord" over them. Perhaps something similar could be applied to Canrille? Kanjor and Rildanor would retain seperate Kingdom governments, which ruled all Internal/Finance/etc Affairs. The Foreign Affairs and the Military of the two joint Kingdoms would be handled with a joint-Imperial Government, made up of a Cabinet comprised of members from the parties in both Kingdoms - requiring a majority in both Kingdom's governments or something (I'm not sure about that last bit). |
Date | 21:14:47, February 13, 2012 CET | From | Front Canrillaise | To | Debating the Rildanor and Kanjor Negotiations |
Message | So far: 1. Empire du Canrille (pending PSD approval) 2.1. Imperatrice (Empereur) du Canrille et la Noumonde, Reine (Roi) des Rildanoriennes, Reine (Roi) de Kanjor et La Tondelle (pending PSD approval) 2.2. I think it be best if we either make both King and Queen as co-monarchs, rather than still having them as separate monarchs, or just skip the two and pass on the crown to a son or daughter that we have yet to make up. 3. Foreign affairs and the military should definitely be a shared responsibility and that a simple majority in both governments would be enough. Through this, I suppose the central "Canrille" Government would be supreme in theory, but with many powers devolved to the provinces? 4. All other areas, like internal, finance, etc, would be provincial matters so that we're not trampling on each other's issues, except those that we choose to work together on. |
Date | 21:24:16, February 13, 2012 CET | From | Front Canrillaise | To | Debating the Rildanor and Kanjor Negotiations |
Message | As for issue 2.3, the "Emperor" or "Empress" could alternate residency between the two countries every 6 months, or whenever a province needs him or her for official state duties. For 2.4, I was thinking the official royal house name be something like House of Orléans-Vasser and Villiers? Or the other way around? Let me know what you both think. Also, if there are any other issues we need to take up then state them so I can add to the list. I'd like for this union to last for a really long time and so we should make our arrangements as acceptable to as many parties as possible, even to those who will form in the future. |
Date | 02:14:16, February 14, 2012 CET | From | Alliance de l'Avenir de Canrille | To | Debating the Rildanor and Kanjor Negotiations |
Message | I fully agree. I have no further objections. Perhaps resurrecting House Orléans-Vasser et Villiers would be in order? |
Date | 02:30:14, February 14, 2012 CET | From | Action Canrillaise (Rildanor) | To | Debating the Rildanor and Kanjor Negotiations |
Message | The "PSD's thoughts": 1. The PSD agrees, and supports the name "Empire du Canrille". 2.1 - Again, we find the proposed title of the monarch acceptable. 2.2 - I believe that either both the King and Queen should be co-monarchs, or the crown should be passed to a son or daughter that would be the head of state for both provinces. 2.3 - Again, alternating residences between the two is reasonable. 3. It has already been stated that Foreign Policy and Military would be the responsibilities of the new federal government - shared responsibilities. Again, I agree with this. These are the most practical and implementable aspects of having a shared government, but also perhaps a partially implementable/roleplayed aspect would give the powers to regulate/govern trade and mobility between the provinces? -As for determining military policy and action I would support a system where a simple majority of each provincial legislatures suffice.. However we could attempt to make a more cohesive system whereby perhaps a federal legislature exists, composed of a "joint session" of the two provincial legislatures. Both provincial legislatures would be equal in size (such as 75 seats, for example). A majority in each provincial legislature and a super-majority within the federal legislature (meaning that both provinces would need to pass it 38/75, and with votes combined pass by 100/150 for example) could be a method in situations of declarations of war and peace. Again, this system has significant disadvantages, and may end up being unworkable. 4- again, agreed. My apologies for entering the conversation late, and not contributing much, but I believe these talks are on the right track. |
Date | 06:56:55, February 14, 2012 CET | From | Front Canrillaise | To | Debating the Rildanor and Kanjor Negotiations |
Message | The PSD has offered a very interesting system for approving foreign and military policy, and in an ideal situation this would make RP great. But, as the PSD has pointed out, it does have disadvantages and only complicates the relationship and could endanger the union. I think a simple majority in both legislatures should suffice in matters of war and international positions. I'm also uncertain about what you had in mind regarding trade and mobility, but we can simply assume that free mobility is exercised throughout the land without making it obvious. We can perhaps make the same assumption for trade. FINALLY, let's clarify what monarch will occupy the throne: [1] co-monarchs Baudouin and Noelle OR [2] a son or daughter. In my opinion, if we are eventually going to pass on the crown to a child of the former, then we might as well do it now before circumstances change. I don't really care if we have a male or female and will support whatever name or age. |
Date | 02:11:52, February 15, 2012 CET | From | Alliance de l'Avenir de Canrille | To | Debating the Rildanor and Kanjor Negotiations |
Message | OOC: The thing with the succession is that the LoS in Kanjor never mentioned any children. This leaves it up for interpretation. We could always "create" a heir that would be considered as having been there the whole time. I myself am in favor of François for a Monarch name. You can't get more French than that... |
Date | 03:51:00, February 15, 2012 CET | From | Front Canrillaise | To | Debating the Rildanor and Kanjor Negotiations |
Message | OOC: Yes, we will have to make up the heir. François is fine with me. Since the marriage of Noelle and Baudouin took place in 3236 (http://classic.particracy.net/viewbill.php?billid=336146) the child can be born at around 3237, making him currently 21 years of age. Is this acceptable to you both? |
Date | 19:59:47, February 15, 2012 CET | From | Alliance de l'Avenir de Canrille | To | Debating the Rildanor and Kanjor Negotiations |
Message | OOC: Yes. I will be drafting a motion in the Kanjorienne Senate to: - Change the Official Title of the State to the Empire de Canrille (Kanjor) - Change the HoS to François I, l'Empereur de Canrille et la Noumonde, Roi des Rildanoriennes, Roi de Kanjor et La Tondelle. |
Date | 21:10:40, February 15, 2012 CET | From | Les Ultraroyalistes d'Alduria (IA) | To | Debating the Rildanor and Kanjor Negotiations |
Message | OOC: I understand I'm an outsider in these talks, but speaking as a longtime monarchist ally & francophile player, I'd like to say while I love this idea, and love the House Orléans-Vasser et Villiers, I'm not at all partial to Canrille, in no way attempting to subvert your decision: I'm merely pointing that out because the less universal the appeal, the less likely any successors to your two parties would keep it, one lesson I learned from the Union of Luthori-Alduria is that for whatever reason 'collective' names tend to fade rather over time, (we tried Holy Terran Empire, for a while, and the remnant of that is still in -our- union treaty, but -nobody- ever uses it anywhere 'official' because simply "of Luthori et d'Alduria" works best, and that is part of the reason ours has lasted so long, and I would be remiss if I did not pass that little bit of experience along to you, that said, I look forward to doing Diplo between our Union and yours!) |
Date | 00:38:25, February 16, 2012 CET | From | Front Canrillaise | To | Debating the Rildanor and Kanjor Negotiations |
Message | OOC: We thank the Ultraroyalists of Alduria for their suggestion. However, the bonds between Rildanor and Kanjor are much stronger culturally and ethnically than that of Alduria and Luthori. In fact, Alduria also has close similarities to the other two, but it has always been Rildanor and Kanjor that have flirted with union due to their entangled histories. Collective names confirm the true union of two nations into one; there will be no separate Kanjor or Rildanor culture since both are technically of the same culture and ethnicity. This is the main difference between Alduria/Luthori and Kanjor/Rildanor, and this is primarily why I think the name will stick. If the union should end, it will be for other reasons, not the name Regarding the changes to official title and HoS: Upon doing some research, I found that nouns ending in "lle" are generally feminine (with some exceptions). If we followed this rule, then it would be Empire de la Canrille (just like for La Tondelle). If Kanjor is male, then we use it as "Roi du Kanjor". Come to think of it, I think Noumonde should be male. (See: http://french.about.com/od/grammar/a/genderpatterns_2.htm). If we follow the above rules, the names should be something like this: 1. Empire de la Canrille (Kanjor) 2. François I, l'Empereur de la Canrille et du Noumonde, Roi des Rildanoriennes, Roi du Kanjor et La Tondelle. If the above is agreeable, then we can proceed to finalizing the bill. I don't really care if we do a treaty or just pass a regular bill in both countries. Personally, a bill would be less of a headache. I will write up the wording of the bill outlining some articles. The simpler the better. |
Date | 02:02:28, February 16, 2012 CET | From | Front Canrillaise | To | Debating the Rildanor and Kanjor Negotiations |
Message | This is the bill we are now proposing and will hopefully make official the union. If the wording is proper, then we will move it to a vote. Note: For Kanjor, just copy and paste to a bill. You can change the bracket name to 'Kanjor' in article 1, as well as put Kanjor ahead of Rildanor throughout, if you wish. |
Date | 02:02:54, February 16, 2012 CET | From | Front Canrillaise | To | Debating the Rildanor and Kanjor Negotiations |
Message | Oops, here's the link: http://classic.particracy.net/viewbill.php?billid=339815 |
Date | 02:23:11, February 16, 2012 CET | From | Alliance de l'Avenir de Canrille | To | Debating the Rildanor and Kanjor Negotiations |
Message | Excellent. http://classic.particracy.net/viewbill.php?billid=339821 and http://classic.particracy.net/viewbill.php?billid=339820 |
Date | 05:03:09, February 16, 2012 CET | From | Front Canrillaise | To | Debating the Rildanor and Kanjor Negotiations |
Message | Great. Putting this to a vote for records. |
subscribe to this discussion - unsubscribe
Voting
Vote | Seats | ||
yes | Total Seats: 75 | ||
no | Total Seats: 0 | ||
abstain | Total Seats: 0 |
Random fact: Jelbic = "Group of cultures with an overall Central Asian/Eurasian steppe theme, using a fictional language developed specifically for Particracy". |
Random quote: "Racism is man's gravest threat to man - the maximum of hatred for a minimum of reason." - Abraham Joshua Heschel |