We are working on a brand new version of the game! If you want to stay informed, read our blog and register for our mailing list.
Bill: Hulstrian Dovani Purchase Act
Details
Submitted by[?]: Kokuminto (Gishoton Nationalist Party)
Status[?]: passed
Votes: This bill is a resolution. It requires more yes votes than no votes. This bill will not pass any sooner than the deadline.
Voting deadline: May 3292
Description[?]:
I. The Imperial Crownlands of Greater Hulstria (henceforth known as "Hulstria") shall transfer all of its Dovani colonies, known as the "Eastern Territories", to Free Gaduridos (henceforth known as "Gaduridos"). II. Gaduridos shall pay Hulstria a sum of 500,000,000,000 LOD for all of Hulstria's Dovani colonies. III. The sale and transfer shall take place in February of 3293, with all colonies being immediately transferred to Gaduridos and all money immediately being transferred to Hulstria. IV. The sale of Hulstria's Dovani colonies is final. Repealing this act will not result in Hulstria regaining its former colonies, or Gaduridos receiving its money back. Signed, Governor-General, elected representative of His Imperial & Most Illustrious Lutheran Majesty Karl IV, Emperor of Hulstria, Alexander Luther StaatministerJustus Witt Minister of Foreign Affairs Paul Wettin Minister of Internal Affairs Kilian Bruhn |
Proposals
Debate
These messages have been posted to debate on this bill:
Date | 13:55:32, April 20, 2012 CET | From | Kokuminto (Gishoton Nationalist Party) | To | Debating the Hulstrian Dovani Purchase Act |
Message | OOC: All fixed. |
Date | 15:36:36, April 20, 2012 CET | From | Kaiserliche Hulsterreichische Partei | To | Debating the Hulstrian Dovani Purchase Act |
Message | OOC: I would argue an act of this nature requires a 2/3s majority vote. But whatever, thanks for beginning the end of 6 years work by so many persons. |
Date | 15:45:13, April 20, 2012 CET | From | Hosian-Konservative Allianz | To | Debating the Hulstrian Dovani Purchase Act |
Message | OOC: I believe it might KHP, therefore this would be an invalid vote. |
Date | 17:58:19, April 20, 2012 CET | From | Verein Partei | To | Debating the Hulstrian Dovani Purchase Act |
Message | OOC: I don't think this requires a 2/3 vote since it doesn't amend anything constitutionally. You could refer this to moderation, but they'd likely tell you the same thing. Glad our nation will get 1000 times the original offer at least. |
Date | 06:07:21, April 21, 2012 CET | From | Beluz Democratic Karavist Party | To | Debating the Hulstrian Dovani Purchase Act |
Message | This should have been a treaty. That would have brought in the 2/3 supermajority vote, and require both nations to sign the same thing. |
Date | 11:06:58, April 21, 2012 CET | From | Konstitutionelle Monarchie Partei | To | Debating the Hulstrian Dovani Purchase Act |
Message | This is an invalid vote. The constitution of the Imperial Crownlands includes the law known as the Colonial Affairs Act, written by the defunct Christian Liberal Party to protect Hulstria from these very actions, which governs the colonies. It was amended during the 2800s to be part of the constitution and any and all issues regarding the colonies must require a 2/3rds vote. Additionally any matter regarding colonies and foreign entities must be introduced in a treaty; all past and present colonial matters on the international stage have been presented in a treaty. Colonial transfers have always been done by treaty. |
Date | 11:27:47, April 21, 2012 CET | From | Konstitutionelle Monarchie Partei | To | Debating the Hulstrian Dovani Purchase Act |
Message | Additionally this bill does not even have the majority of the political parties that favor this. Any decisions as well regarding colonies must be done in a collective fashion; they do not have the majority of players here supporting this action regarding these colonies (just like how nations need the majority of players to go to war), enforcing the arguement that this resolution by these invading parties is invalid. |
Date | 11:44:38, April 21, 2012 CET | From | Konstitutionelle Monarchie Partei | To | Debating the Hulstrian Dovani Purchase Act |
Message | Finally while this bill may have the signature of the Governor-General, it does not have the signature of the Emperor of Hulstria nor his apparent consent. This bill can be considered borderline treason and could very well be brought forth to the Imperial Tribunal for not only its question of legality but for possible crimes against the Hulstrian state. |
Date | 15:12:38, April 21, 2012 CET | From | Beluz Democratic Karavist Party | To | Debating the Hulstrian Dovani Purchase Act |
Message | If the royal family feels threatened by a possible coup d'etat, it is free to move to Beluzia. If it does, the head of the family is eligible for election to the throne as "Count" of Beluzia. http://classic.particracy.net/viewbill.php?billid=345044 |
Date | 15:39:22, April 21, 2012 CET | From | Verein Partei | To | Debating the Hulstrian Dovani Purchase Act |
Message | Provide links to these constitutional provisions |
Date | 16:01:50, April 21, 2012 CET | From | Kokuminto (Gishoton Nationalist Party) | To | Debating the Hulstrian Dovani Purchase Act |
Message | OOC: 5.3.8 A Roleplay is only valid if all players involved consent to it and continue to do so throughout the duration. 5.3.8.1 By consenting to a roleplay, you accept the consequences of cause, effect and common sense as agreed between the players on EVERY point. These are from the Pax Cynica. As any Hulstrian constitution would be based on RP, it would have to be approved by all of the players. 6.6.1 Colonies must be owned and administered by the nation in which they belong. As such, any decisions regarding the colony must be passed as a bill in their parent nations legislature. Furthermore, no colony can be owned or administered by an individual player, party or party organisation. This is also from the Pax Cynica. Nowhere does it say that bills concerning the transfer of colonies must pass with a constitutional majority or a treaty. |
Date | 16:23:59, April 21, 2012 CET | From | Verein Partei | To | Debating the Hulstrian Dovani Purchase Act |
Message | OOC: I don't always agree with the game rules. The RP thing doesn't really apply here I think because the anti-transfer faction could say your RP is the invalid one. That is a nonstarter. 6.6.1 is a good point. I think that is why the assumption is that the bill is legal. I think the question being raised is 'is this bill even legal?' If that is the question, then we need evidence to prove that. To FGP's points: 1 colonial affairs act seems to be a simple bill regarding administration of the colonies. I can't find proof that this is either a constitutional provision or relates to any potential transfer. 2. International agreements don't have to take the form of a treaty as far as I know. If previous governments decided to use treaties for colonial matters, it doesn't mean this is illegal. 3. Majority of parties doesn't matter. If it did matter, I would just change my vote because that's insane. 4. The monarch is just a figurehead. Where is the link showing a powerless figurehead under the control of... someone... can refuse to sign bills and charge people with treason if... someone... decides he doesn't like something. If FGP wants to make a case that this bill is void, it needs to present a better case. Provide links or |
Date | 16:24:48, April 21, 2012 CET | From | Verein Partei | To | Debating the Hulstrian Dovani Purchase Act |
Message | ... quotes from game rules to support your arguments please. |
Date | 16:46:12, April 21, 2012 CET | From | Beluz Democratic Karavist Party | To | Debating the Hulstrian Dovani Purchase Act |
Message | This should have been a treaty, not an isolated local bill. |
Date | 17:01:09, April 21, 2012 CET | From | Hosian-Konservative Allianz | To | Debating the Hulstrian Dovani Purchase Act |
Message | OOC: Technically since game mechanics do not govern colonies and the RP portion does that would mean the Constitution would in fact make this bill invalid. |
Date | 17:03:00, April 21, 2012 CET | From | Beluz Democratic Karavist Party | To | Debating the Hulstrian Dovani Purchase Act |
Message | The treaty would fix that, since it would need a 2/3 supermajority to pass. |
Date | 19:04:31, April 21, 2012 CET | From | Kokuminto (Gishoton Nationalist Party) | To | Debating the Hulstrian Dovani Purchase Act |
Message | OOC: Technically, since the game rules specify how colonies are governed, so this bill is legal. Foreign parties need to stop cluttering this bill debate. If you want to post something, do it on the nation page. I'm sure none of you would want a foreign party commenting on your own bills. |
Date | 19:31:54, April 21, 2012 CET | From | Beluz Democratic Karavist Party | To | Debating the Hulstrian Dovani Purchase Act |
Message | OOC: I have no problem with foreign parties commenting on my bills. I wouldn't consider this bill legal, because: 1) This is RP, so it's either 67% or a 100%, depending on how serious the matter is 2) When changing the head of state laws (a constitutional matter), it's a 67% vote that is needed. This alters the powers of the throne; it alters a lot about the throne, and it alters the colonial nations' head of state. This would have been better off as a treaty. |
Date | 19:54:55, April 21, 2012 CET | From | Sindicato Obrero Libre | To | Debating the Hulstrian Dovani Purchase Act |
Message | OOC: Pax Cynica 6.6.1. is clear on this: As such, any decisions regarding the colony must be passed as a bill in their parent nations legislature. A bill is perfectly legal and valid. 6.6.1 Colonies must be owned and administered by the nation in which they belong. As such, any decisions regarding the colony must be passed as a bill in their parent nations legislature. Furthermore, no colony can be owned or administered by an individual player, party or party organisation |
Date | 02:38:26, April 22, 2012 CET | From | Verein Partei | To | Debating the Hulstrian Dovani Purchase Act |
Message | No one has shown a link proving this is a constitutional violation. Prove this is a violation please. If you have no proof than the bill is legal. |
Date | 07:53:55, April 22, 2012 CET | From | Konstitutionelle Monarchie Partei | To | Debating the Hulstrian Dovani Purchase Act |
Message | 6.6.4 The right to declare colonial opinion is not in the hands of any one person; it is in the collective hands of the parties in the parent nation. Otherwise this is godmodding by its very definition. The collective hands. The Freikonservative Partei did not consult with the rest of the parties here in Hulstria on this matter nor did they even receive the majority support from the players in Hulstria. The FP simply came into Hulstria and made this bill, in disregard of current Hulstrian law and opinion from the rest of the community here. 6.2.1 Figures (monetary values, soldier counts, casualty counts in war, as non-exhaustive examples) should be realistic as agreed between players. The 500,000,000,000 LOD figure determined by the Freikonservative Partei was not agreed upon by the majority of players here in Hulstria. Furthermore there is no indication in the Gad. budget that would allow them to pay close to a trillion dollars on top of them running several wars and military campaigns at the moment. We believe this is highly unrealistic because of not inly that but as well we believe since this number was not agreed upon by all players here in Hulstria it is not valid. If this is the case the involved parties would also be in violation of 9.5.1 of Pax Cynica. 6.6.1 Colonies must be owned and administered by the nation in which they belong. As such, any decisions regarding the colony must be passed as a bill in their parent nations legislature. Furthermore, no colony can be owned or administered by an individual player, party or party organisation Additionally 6.6.2 only serves to make minimum standards for the transfer of colonies, and does not replace the general rule of role play, which requires the consent from all players (5.3.8 A). I was approached by the Union Socialism Alliance (which I would appericate if you would stop posting in Hulstrian bills, this is not your place :) ), if I wanted to take part in this RP to explain the transfer of colonies and the such. I refused. By definition what is going on here is an RP conducted by the Freikonservative Partei, an RP of for all sense and purposes an invasion of Hulstria. If this is true these partes are also in violation of 5.3.8 A. For as long as this game has been in existance all colonial transfers have been by treaty and by a 2/3rds vote. This has been upheld for many years and by very definition these invaders are breaking this policy. If I must I will come before moderation to request an intervention on this matter and put a hold on all of this. Concerning links and bills: Colonial Affairs Act: http://classic.particracy.net/viewbill.php?billid=235486 Restoration of the Imperial Tribunal: http://classic.particracy.net/viewbill.php?billid=183337 Eastern Territories Reorganization Act of 2806: http://classic.particracy.net/viewbill.php?billid=261893 South Carinan Treaty: http://classic.particracy.net/viewtreaty.php?treatyid=1653 Government Reform and Reorganization Act (Constitutional Amendment: http://classic.particracy.net/viewbill.php?billid=281555 Now...The Colonial Affairs Act has been amended throughout Hulstrian history to change provisions like the appointment of the Imperial Commissioner (the power now in the hands of the monarch) however a solid majority of the original bill remains in play. Additionally since the FP has withdrew from the South Carinan Treaty, the colonies maped out in that bill have already transfered to Luthori, meaning Gad. will never see those colonies from Hulstria. Concerning the last link after a period of time the resolution was repealed but Article V was kept on due to its importance to Hulstrian safety and security. As the Government Reform and Reorganization Act was part of the consitution, was passed by a 2/3rds vote and Article V was part of the amendment, included to the constitution and maintained after, enforces my point that the sale of colonies here in Greater Hulstria must need a 2/3rds majority. |
Date | 08:00:06, April 22, 2012 CET | From | Beluz Democratic Karavist Party | To | Debating the Hulstrian Dovani Purchase Act |
Message | OOC: The Gaduri economy is pretty bad... I doubt there would easily be such a large amount of LOD. |
Date | 16:41:34, April 22, 2012 CET | From | Verein Partei | To | Debating the Hulstrian Dovani Purchase Act |
Message | Once again... claims of RP violations is pretty pointless. Couldn't the FP also claim you are godmodding? It was 2 parties against 2. Your original claim that you made was that the measure needed 2/3 support are pretty meaningless now since the collective needs to agree to all RP and you'll never agree to anything. Seems like no fun to me. Figures: considering this nation was running a huge deficit under FGP leadership (probably) was no concern, but this is? The VP had to be the party to put our financial house in order. You understand how your party has no ability to nitpick financial realism now, right? |
Date | 17:02:03, April 22, 2012 CET | From | Verein Partei | To | Debating the Hulstrian Dovani Purchase Act |
Message | Ok sad to say I have decided all your claims are bogus except the Government Reform and Reorganization Act specifically Article V. This provision would invalidate this bill. I like the Luthori treaty angle, but in that case I think reality would always trump legality. With Hulstria occupying that land, Luthori would basically have to invade it all to take it unless we just rolled over. You assume the Interior Minister just handed over the territories without informing anyone? I doubt that. |
Date | 17:33:18, April 22, 2012 CET | From | Kokuminto (Gishoton Nationalist Party) | To | Debating the Hulstrian Dovani Purchase Act |
Message | 6.6.4 The right to declare colonial opinion is not in the hands of any one person; it is in the collective hands of the parties in the parent nation. Otherwise this is godmodding by its very definition. This talks about colonial opinion. Reread the bill. There is no talk of colonial opinion. However, you are right concerning 6.2.1. Next time, should we gain a majority, we will just make the transfers free in order to avoid any figures. Your RP bills are moot. If one party doesn't agree, then they are all invalidated. |
Date | 18:38:38, April 22, 2012 CET | From | Beluz Democratic Karavist Party | To | Debating the Hulstrian Dovani Purchase Act |
Message | Territories in Beluzia are not subject to international colonial law, as the people have the right to elect their sovereign head of the county. Beluzia cannot be sold. This is just a note for future reference if the Count of Beluzia is ever from the royal family of Hulstria. Sincerely, Bill Madison Minister of Justice of Beluzia |
Date | 09:52:39, April 23, 2012 CET | From | Konstitutionelle Monarchie Partei | To | Debating the Hulstrian Dovani Purchase Act |
Message | I will be requesting moderation intervention in this matter. It is clear that these parties have no regard for Hulstrian law nor for Pax Cynica. They believe they can just walk right in and disregard everything to suit their own purposes. As for Luthori, the treaty says it right there. Both nations knew what we were taking ourselves into. |
Date | 14:49:58, April 23, 2012 CET | From | Verein Partei | To | Debating the Hulstrian Dovani Purchase Act |
Message | Go look at my last post. You have 1 good point. The rest are bogus. |
Date | 14:53:14, April 23, 2012 CET | From | Kokuminto (Gishoton Nationalist Party) | To | Debating the Hulstrian Dovani Purchase Act |
Message | Moderation has just informed me that this bill is invalid per the game rules and that all parties will have to agree on the matter due to colonies being "tools of RP". |
Date | 18:26:12, April 23, 2012 CET | From | Verein Partei | To | Debating the Hulstrian Dovani Purchase Act |
Message | Ok well isn't the solution simple? I think Article V of the GRRA incorporates the territories in the nation. For the colonies to be transferred, a constitutional amendment would have to pass alongside the transfer requiring a 2/3 majority. The whole RP thing is bunk IMO bc Gaduridos can claim it owns the colonies now bc it doesn't agree with our RP of the colonies. This whole argument is much more tenuous than the FGP thinks. His rationale would allow any nation to strip us of our colonial possessions. All that RP you love... pointless because Indralans just decided they don't agree with it anymore. Let's work together to establish a framework for future colonial issues or we might as well inform Gaduridos that it can control our colonies too because all RP everywhere is void. |
subscribe to this discussion - unsubscribe
Voting
Vote | Seats | |||
yes | Total Seats: 381 | |||
no | Total Seats: 344 | |||
abstain | Total Seats: 0 |
Random fact: If you want to know how many players there are in Particracy right now, check out the Game Statistics buried at the bottom of the World Map screen. |
Random quote: "It is better to be feared than loved, if you cannot be both." - Niccolo Machiavelli |