Main | About | Tutorial | FAQ | Links | Wiki | Forum | World News | World Map | World Ranking | Nations | Electoral Calendar | Party Organizations | Treaties |
Login | Register |
Game Time: July 5461
Next month in: 03:08:01
Server time: 16:51:58, March 29, 2024 CET
Currently online (1): FireboyUK | Record: 63 on 23:13:00, July 26, 2019 CET

We are working on a brand new version of the game! If you want to stay informed, read our blog and register for our mailing list.

Bill: OOC: RP-Coup? PLEASE READ!

Details

Submitted by[?]: Uniao Socialista

Status[?]: defeated

Votes: This bill is a resolution. It requires more yes votes than no votes. This bill will not pass any sooner than the deadline.

Voting deadline: July 4067

Description[?]:

OOC: To all parties.
What would you say about an RP left-leaning military coup?
I think it would be extremely fun for a traditionally centrist country like Tukarali to have a "socialist" military coup.
If you all agree we can further discuss it,as to how it can be Roleplayed.Something like what "happened" in Dranland.

As always,all parties must agree to pass this.

We can discuss about the length of this RP(I suggest 3-4 in-game years),how it will be implemented(all parties will be "forced" to endorse a provisional president,maybe) and anything you would like to ask,feel free to ask it.

Proposals

Debate

These messages have been posted to debate on this bill:

Date11:21:59, January 04, 2014 CET
FromUnião Democrática do Tukarali
ToDebating the OOC: RP-Coup? PLEASE READ!
MessageOOC: Frankly, I'm not interested in RPing any kind of coup, be it left-wing or right-wing. I came to Tukarali to end an authoritarian regime, and ever since I've been trying to preserve the democratic structures that were established then, and I see no attraction in roleplaying something which would throw all that into disarray..
I'd be happy if we finally got round to RPing proper parliamentary procedures, though.

Date18:08:28, January 04, 2014 CET
FromUniao Socialista
ToDebating the OOC: RP-Coup? PLEASE READ!
MessageOOC: Ok,just thought it would make things interesting.Being here sooo many years I believe it has become boring for you to see uninteresting parties and nearly inactive parties,getting the majority and then abstaining,or not creating any laws to allow for some proper RP.

Anyway,I was just looking for a way to heat things up a bit.

Date19:50:03, January 04, 2014 CET
FromPartido da Social Democracia Tukarêse
ToDebating the OOC: RP-Coup? PLEASE READ!
MessageI wonder how these "parliamentary procedures" would happen. I'm quite interested myself.

Date20:51:15, January 04, 2014 CET
FromAliança Real de Tukarali 👑
ToDebating the OOC: RP-Coup? PLEASE READ!
MessageOOC:
If you all want "proper RP," I suggest utilizing the Tukarese news topic on the forums: http://forum.particracy.net/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1850

Additionally, I would make the suggestion that Tukarali stop using Portuguese, because at this point, Tukarali looks like nothing more than a Portugal/Brazil clone. In reality, this nation was supposed to be an "Asian Brazil," or rather a sort of Singapore/Indonesia, with only minimal Latin influences.

And finally, there is no value in playing Particracy solely for the purpose of "preserving democratic structures." What are you accomplishing? The work that was being done for the development of Tukarali has halted, and under current circumstances, its impossible to restart that development that was being done.

Date21:06:56, January 05, 2014 CET
FromUnited Aldegarian Party
ToDebating the OOC: RP-Coup? PLEASE READ!
Message^OOC: this

Date22:20:30, January 05, 2014 CET
FromUnião dos Partidos Trabalhistas
ToDebating the OOC: RP-Coup? PLEASE READ!
MessageOOC: I really like all ideas about RP, but my english is very limited :(

Date09:14:58, January 06, 2014 CET
FromUnião Democrática do Tukarali
ToDebating the OOC: RP-Coup? PLEASE READ!
MessageOOC: Yes, it can sometimes be frustrating to see parties arrive, win a large number of seats and then abstain or fall completely inactive, thereby often paralysing government formation and other democratic processes. But being here for so long, I've learned to be patient and sit those parties out. They're usually not here for long.

By properly RPing the parliamentary process I mean strating to discuss legislative proposals formally, and if possible, forming a new cabinet after each election (as it is usually done in RL parliamentary democracies). Maybe we could start electing a Speaker of Parliament again, as it was done for a brief time when the Alliance of Liberals and Progressives was active here.

In Particracy, I'm mostly interested in RPing such procedures and discuss even quite mundane "everyday" laws. The common fashion in Particracy to define "real" politics in terms of armed conflict and coups holds little attraction for me. All I want to do is to install the structures a functioning parliamentary democracy and keep them going for a while. I guess I'm boring that way.

I couldn't say that I have been all too successful. I managed to keep the Democratic Republic going against proponents of an ill-defined pirate culture, some would-be dictators and a whole range of disinterested uncommunicative parties, but for much of the time I would have had to roleplay with myself. I'm actually quite happy that currently there seem to be a number of parties which are interested in communication and being active, and I'd like to expand on that. However, I've been busy in RL recently, and not being used to real activity from other parties, I may not have seemed all too enthsiastic myself. All I can do is promise to try.

I do object to the assertion that there is "no value" in playing Particracy for the purpose of preserving democratic structures. I regard it as an accomplishment in itself, though I would behappier to fill those structures with life.

As for the national culture and using Portuguese or any other language: when I joined, I was up against a rather silly "fascist" party with no interest in national culture whatsoever. I was informed by several players about the "Asian" origins of Tukarese culture and its Latin influences, so I tried to go along with it, thoughI received somewhat conflicting views, which "Asian" cultre exactly was at the root of Tukarali . I may have put more of a stress on the Latin element than was traditional (because, frankly, it was easier for me to find new Spanish/Portuguese names at regular intervals than Asian ones). When therewas later a brief interval with the aforementioned Aliança dos Liberais e Progressistas governing, they steered the culture of Tukarali (as far as there is one) in an even more "Portuguese" directing, and I went along with that and continued in that direction, even after they left, may just because back then I was tryingg to learn Portuguese anyway (with little success, so don't try your Portuguese on me). And that's the direction Tukarali has been heading, more or less, for more than 200 game years now. For all I know, some of my characters may still have "Asian" roots but have adopted Portuguese-sounding names in recognition of growing Latin cultural influence. That's how it goes, cultures develop, they are not fossilised at some point in time. Maybe it wouldbe better to define this cultural development that has happened over the past few game centuries in a proper cultural protocol, if only to fill it with life of some kind. However, Tukarali today is what it is today, not what it was a few game centuries ago, and it looks no more (or as much) like a Portugal/Brazil clone than it would look like a Singapore/Indonesia clone if it had fossilsed at the point when the Aikokusha was last active here.

Date19:22:33, January 06, 2014 CET
FromAliança Real de Tukarali 👑
ToDebating the OOC: RP-Coup? PLEASE READ!
MessageOOC:
I do not care if Tukarali is a democracy or not, that's not my point. I currently play in a democracy and very often the RP in my nation is based on procedure and discussion. But my point is that this status quo in Tukarali, and the unwillingness to get past it, is a problem.

The culture of Tukarali has been in development, hence your perception of it being "ill-defined." But I'd argue its not so ill-defined as you claim. Just look at the wiki or the news articles on the forum. Its not all that "ill-defined."

But its certainly not complete, and for many reasons. I first came to Tukarali in 2009, or in game years, the 2700s. At that time there was no recognized culture in Tukarali and I began work on the "Asian Brazil"/Indonesia/Singapore concept. However there were numerous roadblocks. For about 250 years, maybe more, I was blocked by a non-RPing party that logged in every 6 days.

So nothing was getting done and I left. Most recently, I was here right before the Aliança dos Liberais e Progressistas, again trying to put everything in order and to fix the various holes that had formed. The ALP arrived while I was still here and, despite the recognized and established culture, made an exclusively "Portuguese" party.

There is no legitimacy to a Latin culture in Tukarali and the cultural protocols that are recognized by moderation state that this a "Asian/Brazil/Indonesia" type nation. There are already numerous Latin nations in this game and there is no reason to completely throw away the development done in Tukarali for the sake of creating another Latin culture.

Date22:03:58, January 06, 2014 CET
FromUnião Democrática do Tukarali
ToDebating the OOC: RP-Coup? PLEASE READ!
MessageOOC: Well, I do care if I play in a democracy, and that is my point.

As for the culture: where exactly can those cultural protocols "recognized by moderation" that you speak of be found? They seem to have been lost somewhere in the mists of time, and a cultural protocol that has been unknown and not really available to players for several game centuries begs the question as to its validity.

Currently available to me is only the "cultural information" you provided yourself, and as I had no information that it was backed by a proper cultural protocol. I had no reason to suspect that this "cultural information" was anything more than the individual take on Tukarese culture by somebody who had once made the commendable effort to establish some kind of culture and was reacting allergic to anything that would go in a different direction even though you had long left the country.

I do salute you for once having made the effort to establish a culture, but as long as I have not seen a valid and proper cultural protocol I'm happy to recognise Tukaralis "Asian" past, but maintain that the the country has developed in a different direction. This change has taken place gradually over more than 200 game years, and for the time being I regard it as legitimate. At least I don't intend to fall over and deny anything that has happened here in the past 200 game years because a player who used do play in the country but has been absent for several game centuries throws a fit because things haven't been going his way while he was away.


Date23:38:10, January 06, 2014 CET
FromAliança Real de Tukarali 👑
ToDebating the OOC: RP-Coup? PLEASE READ!
MessageOOC: Those cultural protocols sit right on the nation page in a convenient bill titled "Important Information & Archives." When I arrived in Tukarali in the 2700s there was no culture in Tukarali and I began the creation of one. This culture, and the information regarding it, became accepted as the recognized culture and on the forum Tukarali has been acknowledged as having that culture.

As I stated before, there is no legitimacy to a Latin culture in Tukarali; and there's no legitimate RP basis by which to claim that Tukarali is now Latin. Aside from myself and moderation, there are numerous other players who recognize the "Asian" culture of Tukarali.

There is no RP to indicate Tukarali as Latin, other than the usage of Latin names, and that is not enough to say a culture has changed. If you look at the total culmination of RP in Tukarali, it is overwhelmingly indicative of a "Asian" culture.

Date09:10:40, January 07, 2014 CET
FromUnião Democrática do Tukarali
ToDebating the OOC: RP-Coup? PLEASE READ!
MessageOOC: The "Important Information & Archives" is the "cultural information" of your own creation that I was referring to. There is no link nor any other indication that it has ever been codified in the form of proper cultural protocols which are "recognized by moderation". That bill consists mostly of wiki articles you created and a few bills with more or less cultural relevance. I recognise the effort you put into all those things, but they don't make up cultural protocols just because you declare them to be.

I would have been prepared to discuss a gradual reversal of the gradual changes that have happened to Tukarese culture throughout the past few centuries. I consciously wrote I would have been. I see no point in discussing it with somebody who is arrogantly denying the legitimacy of anything that happened in the past two game centuries just because it didn't spring from his own imagination, and who is generally acting as if he owned the country, just because he put some effort into it a long time ago.

As I said, I'm happy to recognise Tukaralis "Asian" history, and as I see it, there is no reason to assume that it has all been buried just because most characters nowadays bear Portuguese names. However, I'm not prepared to have almost everything that has happened since I came here being declared illegitimate or invalid just because somebody who hasn't been around for most of that time doen't like it.

Date16:37:34, January 07, 2014 CET
FromAliança Real de Tukarali 👑
ToDebating the OOC: RP-Coup? PLEASE READ!
MessageOOC: Who the hell else would've created the culture and established the information? I'd long been the only party here. Just because I'm the one solely responsible for creating the culture does not invalidate it. There are numerous, VERY numerous, nations in this game that have cultures that were largely created by one player. Because Tukarali had no pre-existing culture, as per game rules, I was free to create a unique culture. And, as most experienced players do, I utilized the wiki to record the most detailed information regarding the culture and other topics.

And what I'm saying about the past 200 years is that there is no basis or legitimacy to any claim of a cultural change. I'm not denying that "anything happened" at all. There have been elections and there have been political debates. But there has been NO cultural activity beyond the usage of Portuguese names. And, as I've said, just because Portuguese names have been in use, it doesn't mean that a new culture exists. The only possible exception might be if the nation had no pre-existing culture; but that is not the case in Tukarali.

And what has happened in the past 200 years are elections, and also as per game rules, those cannot easily be ignored. And there's no reason to reject the political debates that have occurred. That is the extent, as far as I'm aware, of what has been done. For the cultural context, given the lack of RP, the only valid claims are for a status quo or for a claim of minority rule by the Tukaryns; the white minority, which had in the past imposed minority rule.

And finally I will say, it is extremely easy to see Tukarali's Asian culture as buried. Any person who looks at this nation's page will see nothing Asian about this nation, unless they look at the info bill, which many don't. Anyone looking at this nation will think of it as a Portugal or Brazil clone, and indeed they do -- it has been referred to as such on the forums. It is very clear that Tukarali's Asian culture is buried.

Honestly I would've come back sooner to fix these issues, but I've had RP commitments elsewhwere and I was content to be in an active RP-based nation.

Date08:36:43, January 08, 2014 CET
FromUnião Democrática do Tukarali
ToDebating the OOC: RP-Coup? PLEASE READ!
MessageOOC: Just because you're a player who has created A culture for Tukarali does not mean that your definition of Tukarese culture and its development will for all eternity be the only one valid for this nation

Cultures do develop and change direction over time. Not even a proper cultural protocol (which does not exist) does preclude the possibility of gradual change Using a descriptive approach to culture, the change in naming customs is an indication of growing "Portuguese" influence throughout the past few centuries. The scenario you describe (it being an imposed minority culture) is unlikely, given the wide franchise that has always existed throughout that time. It is far more likely that the majority has adopted this "Portuguese" culture because they regarded it as advantageous to them. In fact, I have ocassionally used "Asian" names for a long time, at some point starting to use a combination of "Latin" first names and "Asian" second or family names with the aim of illustrating that gradual change. The change of names does not mean that all traces of "Asian" culture have been erased, they are simply not that obvious any more. (In fact, looking at the name of the current Chanceler, there seems to be at least another player who is prepared to acknowledge that part of cultural history).

It is true that I haven't created much wider RP based on that, for a variety of reasons:

My personal focus has always been on the preservation of the political structures, which (whether you like it or not) are also part of a national culture. I've managed to keep the Democratic Republic going for several centuries, against, among others, a player who wanted to impose a somewhat ill-defined pirate culture and a whole range of others who showed little to no interest, and I regard that as an achievement.
Frankly, I also couldn't see much of a point in roleplaying with myself whenever I was alone here or surrounded by players who weren't interested.There have always been real-life commitments I had to consider, and expending my energy on a one-person roleplay that nobody else would notice seemed a waste of my personal resources. So I've concentrated on political culture and a low-lvel illustration on how the national culture developed. I made some efforts to involve others with the aim of achieving a clearer defintion of both culture and political structure of Tukarali, but Haven't always had the energy to insist when I received little reaction. And sometimes, when there were parties around which seemed to have potential, they unfortunately disappeared as quickly as they appeared.

Now there is finally a situation where a number of players have arrived who seem to be interested to build on what currently exists, and I'm looking forward to playing with them. But this is also the situation where you choose to barge back in after a long absence and declare cathegorically that only you have the right to define the proper culture of Tukarali and which developments are legitimate and valid and which are not.

It is that inflexibly prescriptive approach which I get so tired of when I read your contributions to this thread. The development towards a culture that looks more Portuguese in real life terms does not preclude a development where a section of the population decide to re-emphathise the "Asian" roots of Tukarese culture and tries to reverse the trend of the past few centuries, and I would be happy to acknowledge that in RP terms. What I object to is your attempt to impose your idea what this nation is and what it should be when you have been absent for such a long time.

Date10:49:46, January 08, 2014 CET
FromAliança Real de Tukarali 👑
ToDebating the OOC: RP-Coup? PLEASE READ!
MessageOOC: Again, I REPEAT, usage of Portuguese names IS NOT a valid reason or explanation for a change in Tukarese culture. The "Asian" was recognized by moderation and Tukarali was considered "culturally active." And that recognition sticks for 100 years following the last noticeable cultural RP. Obviously 100 years has past, but even that does not allow for any deconstruction of the recognized culture. For 500 years the nation gets labeled "culturally dormant," until either that time period expires or the culture is revived or something with very valid reasoning occurs.

NOTHING has occurred to validate turning Tukarali into a Portuguese nation. And returning to the language usage issue; if all this use of Portuguese validates Tukarali as a Latin nation, then I guess there's validity to making half of Particracy English-based because players often use English titles despite their nation's culture.

And its meaningless to defend this current by saying, oh, well I sometimes use "Asian" names. Big deal, one Asian name among a hundred Latin. That's hardly any recognition for the "Asian" cultures that are defined as composing almost 3/4th this nation.

The most important thing I will reiterate yet again is that Portuguese names are not a "trend" that legitimately dictates that Tukarali suddenly had over 70% of its population abandon its customs. Many nob-English nations in Particracy have encountered long periods where English was exclusively used and there was no cultural RP, Much like Tukarali's current situation. But this English dominance is not establishing new cultural trends in the affected nations. No, the pre-existing culturss retain their recognition in the community, and quite players will try to restore the national cultures. Tukarali is an affected nation. It is a nation that became detached from its recognized culture, a culture that is "Asian," not Portuguese.

subscribe to this discussion - unsubscribe

Voting

Vote Seats
yes

    Total Seats: 0

    no
     

    Total Seats: 125

    abstain

      Total Seats: 0


      Random fact: When elections in a country are held, all bills in the voting phase are reset to the debate phase.

      Random quote: "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it." - Upton Sinclair

      This page was generated with PHP
      Copyright 2004-2010 Wouter Lievens
      Queries performed: 75