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Bill: Updated Cultural Protocols -- 361_
Details
Submitted by[?]: Drania Cívica 🏴 시민당
Status[?]: defeated
Votes: This bill is a resolution. It requires more yes votes than no votes. This bill will not pass any sooner than the deadline.
Voting deadline: September 3616
Description[?]:
| So to reflect the population changes that have occurred since 3608 and the affects of the population transfers of the Draddwyr and Dranianos, these shall be the updated cultural protocols of Dankuk and Northern Dovani. The prior protocols (set in 3492) can be viewed here: http://classic.particracy.net/viewbill.php?billid=382263 ------------------------------------------------------ CULTURAL PROTOCOLS OF DANKUK: ETHNICITY: Kyo - 55% Dranianos - 28% Draddwyr - 11% Kazulian - 3% Other - 3% RELIGION: Irreligious - 30% Selucian Patriarchal Church - 28% Sindo/Daenism - 24% United Church of Terra - 10% Draddwyr Paganism - 3% Other - 5% ---------------------------------------------------------------------- CULTURAL PROTOCOLS OF NORTHERN DOVANI: ETHNICITY: Draddwyr - 76% Gao-Showa - 18% Other - 6% RELIGION: Selucian Patriarchal Church - 28% Irreligious - 26% Draddwyr Paganism - 25% Sindo/Daenism - 15% Other - 6% --------------------------------------------------------------------- EXPLANATIONS OF ETHNICITIES & RELIGIONS: ETHNICITY: Kyo = Korean Gao-Showa = General Term (East Asians) Dranianos = Mixed Raced; Latino-East Asians (East Asian Filipinos) Draddwyr = Welsh Kazulian = Norwegian RELIGION: Selucian Patriarchal Church = Catholicism Hosianism = Christianity Sindo = Derived from Shinto with Strong Element of Korean Shamanism Daenism = Buddhism Jienism = Confucianism Draddwyr Paganism = Welsh/Celtic Paganism LANGUAGE: Kyomal = Korean (can also be referred to as Dangugeo [less common]) Dranianos = Spanish Draddwyr = Welsh |
Proposals
Debate
These messages have been posted to debate on this bill:
| Date | 16:15:27, January 27, 2014 CET | From |  Hosianisch-Demokratisches Verbund | To | Debating the Updated Cultural Protocols -- 361_ |
| Message | (OOC: I don't normally butt into discussions on other nation's cultural protocols, but weren't the Kyo a rather small minority in the previous protocols? The nation would have to have been severely depopulated for them to suddenly become 58%.) |
| Date | 16:27:27, January 27, 2014 CET | From | Drania Cívica 🏴 시민당 | To | Debating the Updated Cultural Protocols -- 361_ |
| Message | OOC: These numbers, which I haven't fully finalized yet, are to reflect the population of the large majority of Draddwyr to the Commonwealth. On a more long-term viewpoint, the numbers are to reflect the impact of the population growth policies. And it is this factor which leads to the current numbers not being finalized since I'm not sure how I want to go about representing this information at this time. The largest impact of those policies would more so be present after the 3620s. But at the same time, there needs to be an updated protocol since the current one was enacted in the 3492. Additionally in that regard, I want to further decide some of the other numbers. At the time of the protocols in 3492, I recall an agreement that the Universal Church of Terra was in decline; so stuff like that, I want to consider whether it has further declined, by how much, and what is in its place. Another effort of these protocols is to emphasize Dankuk as a Kyo nation; entirely unique from any other nation in Terra. And its not far-fetched to believe that the Kyo would seek reclamation, considering they are one of the three most major Gao-Showa groups, but the only that does not have an independent realm or nation. These protocols maintain an element of diversity with the Dranianos in the north, the ancestors of Egelian colonialism and ethnic mixing with natives. At the same time, it seeks to prevent this country from becoming another Spanish nation. Additionally, the Draddwyr are still afforded great recognition in Northern Dovani; despite heavily disputed origins (especially considering that there are Welsh/Celtic peoples are scattered all about in part of Seleya and Artania, and in Cildania. |
| Date | 16:34:46, January 27, 2014 CET | From | Hosianisch-Demokratisches Verbund | To | Debating the Updated Cultural Protocols -- 361_ |
| Message | (OOC: You'd also have to explain what happened to the Dranianos. Even a one-child policy wouldn't after a few decades represent such dramatic shifts in the population. So if you were to pass the protocols now, you'd have to have taken some measure of ethnic cleansing or something if you don't mind my saying. I would personally regret the disappearance of multicultural Dranland, just like I prefer H&GS as it is now to a possible restored, fully sovereign Gao-Soto in former Hulstria. Why? Because honestly, they add something to the concept that make them unique. H&GS isn't just Japan - it's Japan bizarrely mixed with German-Austrian settlers who proclaimed an Empire. Similarly, I think it'd be doing previous RP an injustice if Dranland were to become solely Korea with a Draniano minority, rather than the unique unstable multicultural compromise that it was before.) |
| Date | 18:51:41, January 27, 2014 CET | From | Drania Cívica 🏴 시민당 | To | Debating the Updated Cultural Protocols -- 361_ |
| Message | OOC: I have limited time to respond at this very moment; but regarding the Dranianos, their population is 25% under the current protocols. So the change isn't anywhere near as drastic as you perceive. And I think the only injustice here is the fact that Dranland has long stood as an admittedly generic nation that have never appropriately focused on culture. And more sadly, the culture that majorly received attention was that which is no different from numerous other nations in this game. And I have my own opinions regarding Hulstria in the same manner. Before the German/Austrian culture was imposed, Gao-Soto was just that, Gao-Soto. Then German took dominance; and even now, there's an extent to which the Gao-Showa are just treated like an obligation to include. Beyond the monarchy, they're given little unique identity or culture, other than being Europeanized Asians who are conforming to European values. For now, I leave it at that. |
| Date | 19:06:58, January 27, 2014 CET | From | Hosianisch-Demokratisches Verbund | To | Debating the Updated Cultural Protocols -- 361_ |
| Message | OOC: Re: Hulstria and Gao-Soto, Hulstria has been around as far as I'm aware from almost the start of the game. I could construe your comments about the Kunihito as offensive. Unlike you, I do not devote my affections to only one culture. It's true that I am not a monocultural player and never have been (never will be, too), but I have given the Kunihito due attention. As for "conforming to European values", I do think the same can be said to some extent for modern Japan. Frankly, why wouldn't they be Europeanised? They have been living with Europeans for 2 milenniums! There seems to be an inherent bias among people against multicultural nations, of which Hulstria and Gao-Soto and Dranland were a few rare examples. But apparently, they are beneath your notice and you'd prefer every nation in the game to be monocultural. |
| Date | 22:06:44, January 27, 2014 CET | From | Drania Cívica 🏴 시민당 | To | Debating the Updated Cultural Protocols -- 361_ |
| Message | OOC: At origination, as far as I'm aware, it was Gao-Soto. If it was not, RP-recognized history does at least have the Gao-Showa as the original, sole owners of the lands of modern Hulstria. And I stand by my comments about the Kunihito. If I look at the Hulstrian newspaper, as a casual observer, its nothing more than a nation akin to Austria or Germany, albeit with a considerable presence of Japanese. Looking deeper at the newspaper and those Gao-Showa don't show to be all that much different from the Hulstrians, other than their names and appearance. Aside from that and some cities with Japanese names, what much is there to the Kunihito as Gao-Showa? All the characters I've seen are Hosians, every societal picture I see is Germanic, and so on. The most real representation there is for a Kunihito culture that is not essentially "Asian Hulstrians," is the monarchy. Other than that, I see Hulstria's Kunihito characters as a facade for the so-called "multicultural" Hulstria. You have the monarchy, statistics saying how many Gao-Showa there are, and you have characters who have the names and appearances...but other than that, the Kunihito, as I said, have becoming not much more than Asian Hulstrians, in terms of both culture and tradition. Regarding your claim about Japan. There is no equivalency; modern Japan is obviously Westernized, most of East Asia is becoming Westernized. But Westernization is about conforming values and traditions to European standards. Japan has a Western political and economic system; culturally they are entirely unique and their unique culture and traditions are still very much present today. The same is true of Korea, which despite a strong imposition of American values in the 1950s, is considered today as the "most Confucian" nation of Asia. I don't care about political and economic systems, my point is about culture and traditions, and actually affording proper recognition to the values of the Gao-Showa. No matter how Westernized Asia is, there are still strong underlying Asian values in the so-called "Westernized" Asian nations. Finally, I don't know where there is this idea of a bias against multicultural nations. I can find plenty of nations in this game that have diverse societies. Go ahead and look at some of the cultural protocols and you'll find other multicultural nations. Multicultural goes beyond stark contrasts like Asian vs. European, it can be less defined as well. And I don't know where you get this notion of Dankuk becoming monocultural, unless you're deciding to be wholly ignorant of the Dranianos population of the north (which I repeat, are not even being reduced in numbers that much from the 3491 protocols) and also the fact that, while not the peninsula proper, the Commonwealth of Northern Dovani is strongly Draddwyr (something I'm doing for the sake of RP continuity and or the sake of not totally erasing the Draddwyr as a reaction to the complete incoherence of their history and background in the whole of Terra). |
| Date | 22:56:49, January 27, 2014 CET | From | Hosianisch-Demokratisches Verbund | To | Debating the Updated Cultural Protocols -- 361_ |
| Message | OOC: Its original IG name was Gishoto, which evolved to be a compromise between the German players (right there from the start) and those with a Japanese interpretation. The fact that the Gao-Showa were sole owners is neither here nor there if you consider centuries of colonial rule. It's like saying the Aboriginals should have their own state in lieu of Australia. Considering your claims about H&GS: - What is there about the Kunihito as Gao-Showa? That is very hard to capture in news posts. The closest I came to touching upon the non-political and non-economic culture of the Kunihito is creating Tenkoun which functions as the equivalent of Nintendo, also mirroring the fact that as far as I can recall, the Japanese are avid gamers. What do you want me to do? Make occasional mention of manga or anime? Or Kamist ceremonies? The fact is I am a Westerner and despite the fact that I know (well sort of) that Japanese culture tends to be more formal and more strictly hierarchical, I cannot mirror their mindset. All I can do is try to bring that to the front in Kunihito characters, which I really try my best to do. Most of the cultural traditions are day-to-day. It's difficult to bring that to the fore in news articles. And having wikipedia'd "Japanese Values", I'll try to inject some of that but it's not easy. - "All the characters I've seen are Hosians": Not true, though the majority may very well be. That is pure coincidence, though and it owes to a number of factors. The most prominent two Kunihito politicians of the recent era are both Hosians - Matiasu Fukuyama and Rorensu Tamaki - but that's because they're from a very specific type of Mitranian community that is mixed and thus can produce Kunihito Hosians. But I try to make them quite Kunihito if I can help it. Other Hosian "Kunihito" are actually mixed-race, such as Anne Nishimura (who was from Budenlar so it's logical that she is more Western in her outlook) and Michael Takata. But not quite all of my Kunihito characters are Hosians. Two of the more prominent ones are Kamists: Tobe Arinaga (though that didn't really show in his politics, I must admit) and Obe Arinaga are Kamists, and for the latter that explains certain actions (for example, when Tamaki and Arinaga filibustered the Council of the Lands, the former read from the Theodorsexilium whereas the latter read a philosophical tome on Gao-Showan History). I've also repeatedly made mention in my articles that there is a strong Kamist minority in the HDV, which got vocally uncomfortable when the Dranish Hosian Alliance leader visited and started spouting strident Hosian rhetoric. - "Every societal picture I see is Germanic": possibly because I have no idea where to start looking for similar pictures of Japan. This is not deliberate, though. - You might also be confused by the proliferation of German words in the newspaper articles. This is not because there aren't Kunihito equivalents, it's simply because I do not speak Japanese and hate to run to Google Translate all the time. This is also the reason the anthem is only given in German, but that didn't stop me from stating explicitly that there was also a Kunikata version. My notion of Dankuk becoming monocultural has to do with the lack of recognition of the land being the home of the Dranianos as well. H&GS makes no assumptions about who originally "owned the land". |
| Date | 00:22:56, January 28, 2014 CET | From | Drania Cívica 🏴 시민당 | To | Debating the Updated Cultural Protocols -- 361_ |
| Message | OOC: Ultimately what everything comes down to is greater visibility for non-Hulstrian aspects of Kunihito culture. And it doesn't have to mean going out of the way to specifically post about videogames or anime or in some other stereotypical manner about the culture. It can be as simple as when writing an article relating to something in a Kunihito city, if a picture of the city is included, have it *show* a Kunihito city (be it the architecture, the people on the streets, whatever). And the monarchy, as I've previously stated, is at present the most representative of Kunihito culture. When posting relating to the Kunihito royals, maybe talk about Kamism or something (though this is more involved since its requires a greater understanding of Shinto). Moving back to the original issue; the Dranianos issue is an IC one. But even in an OOC viewpoint, the reality is that the Dranianos are a product of colonialism; and technically they're supposed to be mixed raced somewhat like Filipinos (judging by the wiki pictures), though they're constantly (and wrongly?) RPed as Spaniards. IC, the Dranianos are being viewed purely in the colonial aspect and as such are being judged to have their "true homeland" in Egelion; but I've even had the KRS acknowledge the difficulty in determining the "home" of the Dranianos. OOC, the strongest argument probably places their home on the peninsula, since that's where their mixed-raced ethnic group emerged. But when considering the non-mixed, more-so pure Spaniard identity they've taken on, its hard to even say they're a different ethnic group than the Egelians (I mean, just look at the unificationist movement a few decades ago). |
| Date | 00:34:16, January 28, 2014 CET | From | Hosianisch-Demokratisches Verbund | To | Debating the Updated Cultural Protocols -- 361_ |
| Message | OOC: Regarding Kamism, Liu Che and I are reworking the history of the medieval Empire of Gao-Soto to make the Kamist tradition in the Gao-Showan Emperors stronger than the Jienist tradition. That should make it easier to use Shintoist Imperial rituals as the Emperor would then derive his legitimacy from descendance from the Sun Goddess (whom we have yet to rename) instead of the more philosophical Mandate of Heaven. Problem with Kunihito cities is that they were in the possession of the Hulstrians for so long. By rights they should be an odd mix of baroque-romantic-whatever German-European and Japanese architecture but that's rather hard to find. The most Gao-Showan influenced Kunihito city would probably be Miyako (and, in my new Geographical Protocols, Kourien in Mitrania). Returning to the Dranianos - I get your point. There was always a problem with Dranland in that sense. I always thought the unificacionists were a joke, though - nutters who nobody really took notice of except the people that cast a protest vote for them. |
| Date | 01:21:43, January 28, 2014 CET | From | Drania Cívica 🏴 시민당 | To | Debating the Updated Cultural Protocols -- 361_ |
| Message | OOC: It takes some searching, specifically usage of key words and terms, but its not too complicated to get pictures that show a mix of European and Japanese architecture. Japan has its fair share of Western architecture, especially on some of the places built between 1900 and 1945 or many of the universities. Two university examples, Doshisha and Keio: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c5/Keio_University_Library%2C1912.jpg/785px-Keio_University_Library%2C1912.jpg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/12/Doshisha.jpg A good google search is "western architecture in japan." A very good result, which more obviously combines Japan and Europe is this one: http://www.japan-guide.com/g8/2111_01.jpg And this is China, but Qingdao is another merging of Asian and German. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0f/Views_of_Qingdao_.jpg/800px-Views_of_Qingdao_.jpg --- The unificationists were nutters. The big thing about the Dranianos is that the issue was never really looked at that closely. The wiki has mixed-race pictures, and even the history that predates my time in Dranland states that the Dranianos emerged as a result of breeding between the Egelian colonists and their Kyo slaves. So I guess in some ways this new protocol should finally address the Dranianos. Are they Spaniards (like they've been constantly RPed), or are they a distinct Spanish-speaking ethnic group somewhat akin to Filipinos. |
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