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Bill: OOC/RP: Senate Committee on Saridan-Telamonia Tensions
Details
Submitted by[?]: Solentian Nationalist People's Party
Status[?]: passed
Votes: This bill is a resolution. It requires more yes votes than no votes. This bill will not pass any sooner than the deadline.
Voting deadline: March 4147
Description[?]:
| Our soon to be partner Saridan has become embroiled in tensions with the Republic of Telamonia. The Republic of Telamonia has engaged in a smear campaign against Saridan, for this bill. {http://classic.particracy.net/viewbill.php?billid=496928} While we must of course show concern over this, it shouldn't be the concern of other international enties. Telamonia is a single-party dictatorship ruled by an unstable Justice and Equality Party. They have made many mistake filled international announcements. 1. http://classic.particracy.net/viewnews.php?newsid=535582 2. http://classic.particracy.net/viewnews.php?newsid=535324 Telamonia has made claims that Saridan has threatened them. {http://classic.particracy.net/viewbill.php?billid=497227} These are not entirely unsubstanitated, but should not be taken as hard fact. Saridan confirmed this. {http://classic.particracy.net/viewbill.php?billid=497237} We need to decide our course of action in these troubling times. No one wants war, but should Telamonia attack Saridan, we are obligated to come to her defense. Update: Istalia has pledged to defend Telamonia {http://forum.particracy.net/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=6914&p=108785#p108779} Update II: Istalia has reapirated their troops from Solentia {http://classic.particracy.net/viewbill.php?billid=497226} |
Proposals
Debate
These messages have been posted to debate on this bill:
| Date | 02:07:13, December 20, 2016 CET | From |  SUN | To | Debating the OOC/RP: Senate Committee on Saridan-Telamonia Tensions |
| Message | The Foreign Minister seems content to sacrifice friendships for imposing values on other nations. He has said we accepted the treaty, when obviously not all of us has. He has acted emotionally and has increased tensions between us before seeking clarification. The fact that he believes intelligence sharing should not occur between allies, is either an expression of ignorance or simply an excuse to isolate Saridan from the international community for an embargo. The Minister has stated he cares *not* for national boundaries, countries or other entities when it comes to imposing his values on other peoples. If we let this continue, it may very well be our nation that is starved into submission. Paul Schrader Minister of Defence |
| Date | 12:03:39, December 20, 2016 CET | From | Alleanza Radicale - NCD | To | Debating the OOC/RP: Senate Committee on Saridan-Telamonia Tensions |
| Message | I would like paste also here our response under the bill to ratify the treaty with Saridan: "Mr Vice-Chairman, The "Communication of the Minister of Foreign Affairs: RP SARIDANESE AND SOLENTIAN CRISIS (!!!!!!READ PLEAS!!!!!!)" it's a debate to maintain always informed the Parliament of the evolution of the crisis (OOC: the rest "RP SARIDANESE..." it's an RP message to the players, not to be assumed as part of the game). I'm only make my job as Minister of Foreign Affairs Mr Vice-Chairman. And we have not convince anyone! We have show this bill, all the parties in my nation can see how this bill is under vote. But at the same time all the parties of my nation can also see how most part of the parties of Solentia decided to support it. We are part with you of an alliance, a military alliance, not only a trade or economic relationship. I hope that the Government of Solentia understand that an alliance like that pose some responsabilities for both the part, especially in the international field. What we should to do? We had to ignore that our military ally is establishing a treaty with Saridan, a nation that caused the most important international crisis of the last decades? A nation with which Istalia has really tense and conflictual relationships! the most tense and conflictual relationships! We have all the right to be concerned about our national security cause your foreign policies, because we decided to share with Solentia the task of defending the interests, the soil and the citizens of our two nations, and also you accepted this! It's clear and obvious that a treaty that promote "the sharing of intelligence data between the two nations, this will ensure that both countries will be looking out for one another. This military cooperation also includes the defense of each nations homeland in a situation of war. Both nations if called upon for military aide by one another, must offer and deploy troops, equipment, and other aides that may be requested by one another, however each nation must not take advantage of any military aide offered" between our closer ally and Saridan, the nation with which Istalia have more tenstions in the last years, causes concerns for my Government. What do you want to do? Have the 'foot in two camps'? We are not understand why your Minister of Defence and your Minister of Foreign Affairs deployed military forces on the border between our two nations. When Istalia declared to want take actions against you to justify by your part a military deployement on our borders? We decide only to repatriate our military personnel in Solentia because in case of degeneration of the relations between us and Saridan, Solentia declared that it will be at the side of Saridan and how we could put in danger our men located in a nation that potentially will support military an Istalian enemy? We have no intention against Solentia, I never proposed to my nation to take action against Solentia. Never! Here, the only that did not consider minimally the implication of the military alliance between Solentia and Istalia was your minister of foreign affairs and your minister of defence! Such a treaty, as said, impose responsabilities on the foreign affairs: in an alliance it is assumed that members take into account the enmity and tensions that exist between its own allies and other nations, preferring and giving priority to its longtime ally rather than to a third country, and above all it is pretended that a government avoid to declare themselves ready to fight alongside the possible enemies of its allies. In an alliance is expected by the involved governments to be held in mind certain priorities, don't you think? The only that promoted a treaty with the nation with which its military ally have the most problematics relationships was you, not Istalia! The nation that declared to be ready to fight alongside Saridan was you, not Istalia! And it was prevedible from you that it was foreseeable that Istalia, as member of the Security Council and as one of the strenous defender of the human rights, they would be alongside of Telamonia and not of Saridan. I think that Solentia and its political forces should reflect on how the Foreign Minister has led your recent foreign policy, because to me seems that Mr Carter has totally forgotten that Solentia and Istalia are allies for long time and i think that when a nation conduct its foreign policies shall take account of the position and the policies of its military allies before than those of other nations. If Solentia consider not more useful for it continue the alliance with Istalia, we have only to say, but for respect, you shall first put end to the alliance and than graant military support to nation with which we have very high tensions and that risks to become our enemies. Thank you for the attention, now, I invite the Solentian government to reppeal your yellow alert and demobilize troops deployed on our borders, we don't want have problems with you, but if you do not demobilize your troops as soon as possible, we have to responde with the same mobilization. For showing to you our good intentions, we will not deploy in the next months our forces on our borders, we do not take any internal security actions, because we want demostrate that we do not want have any problem with Solentia. But I think that you decided to put an end to our relationship since long time and this bill: http://classic.particracy.net/viewbill.php?billid=497310 it's clear that is only a pretext to push to the end of this long alliance. We are very sorry to learn it! We had great project for the future of our alliance, especially in the field of industrial and infrastructure relationships now that Istalia established intense relationship also with Deltaria and Wantuni, but... evidently for you is better to establish relationships with one of the most shameful and condemned nation all over the world than maintain good rapports with us, a Nation that in less then a (in-game) months created a large international front to condamn and also, in case, to fight Saridan. Good luck for the future dear friends of Solentia. Claudio De Michelis, Minister of Foreign Affairs of Istalia |
| Date | 12:18:24, December 20, 2016 CET | From | Alleanza Radicale - NCD | To | Debating the OOC/RP: Senate Committee on Saridan-Telamonia Tensions |
| Message | And, sorry, but what is it this: http://classic.particracy.net/viewbill.php?billid=497317 Do you really want accuse some nation to be a dictature for these legislation? Take a look to Istalia, we have to do what? A totalitarian state? Please! These are just whining libertarian mold, nothing to do with how is democratic or not a nation. And do you want use these positions against someone that want discriminate among their citizens and their childs? what is democratic in forcing minorities to accept being segregated? You know what it means to the term "segregation" or "apartheid"? Thank you |
| Date | 00:39:58, December 21, 2016 CET | From | Telamonian Workers' Movement (TWM) | To | Debating the OOC/RP: Senate Committee on Saridan-Telamonia Tensions |
| Message | Our nation does not want war and we are concerned by your nation's preparations for such an event. Can our nations' differences not be worked out diplomatically? |
| Date | 00:51:28, December 21, 2016 CET | From | SUN | To | Debating the OOC/RP: Senate Committee on Saridan-Telamonia Tensions |
| Message | We are not preparing for war. Stop lying. Gregor Thanopoulos Chairman, SUN |
| Date | 00:51:28, December 21, 2016 CET | From | SUN | To | Debating the OOC/RP: Senate Committee on Saridan-Telamonia Tensions |
| Message | We are not preparing for war. Stop lying. Gregor Thanopoulos Chairman, SUN |
| Date | 01:45:43, December 21, 2016 CET | From | SUN | To | Debating the OOC/RP: Senate Committee on Saridan-Telamonia Tensions |
| Message | "We decide only to repatriate our military personnel in Solentia because in case of degeneration of the relations between us and Saridan," Minister, Why did you not inform my ministry or any parliamentary committee of the ISDA of this decision to remove troops from their posts? Paul Schrader Minister of Defence |
| Date | 10:01:47, December 21, 2016 CET | From | Alleanza Radicale - NCD | To | Debating the OOC/RP: Senate Committee on Saridan-Telamonia Tensions |
| Message | Minister Schrader, before to be surprise by our "unilateral" decision, the Solentian Government have to explain something to us why Solentia didn't take in account its alliance with us before to procede to establish a treaty with the nation with which Istalia has the most conflictual and serious relationships between long years? Why didn't you informe Istalia of your intentions to open a diplomatic channel with Saridan? And why you are so surprised by our decision about our troops? We take this decision when Solentian irresponsibly declared "unilaterally" to be ready to stand alongside Saridan in case of conflict, declaration made during the zenit of the crisis with Saridan. Why didn't you informe your ally before to make such a public declaration: "We need to decide our course of action in these troubling times. No one wants war, but should Telamonia attack Saridan, we are obligated to come to her defense"? Why didn't you think to our alliance before to take such a decision without informe us of your intentions? What did you think? That during a conflict between us and Saridan, with you alongside the saridaneses, our relationships wouldn't have changed? Here my nation it's not the only ones that have to justify its unilateral decisions, because the first to conduct unilateral policies without even considering our alliance was Solentia. We started to informe your Government of our concerns about the establishment of such a treaty between you and Saridan and we sent to your Minister of Foreign Affairs with this messages: ******"Mr Minister of Foreign Affairs of Solentia, My nation demands clarification about this: http://classic.particracy.net/viewtreaty.php?treatyid=3535 Soletia, ally of my nation, are establishing a treaty with Saridan? A treaty that will provides the exchanges of info of the intelligence and other military and trade exchange. For us, your Ally, is simply inacceptable. We can not allow that our intelligence and military informations and provisions, share with Solentia, will be shared also with Saridan. It's simply inacceptable! We pretend explaination about it. Thank you. Claudio De Michelis, Minister of Foreign Affairs of Istalia"***** You however decided to move on to ratify the treaty, we at least respected it and we claim reassurances about our share of intelligence and military data and your Foreign Minister assured us that Solentia would take every precaution to not make interfere the Saridanese Treaty with our alliance, but then the Minister of Foreign Affairs created this debate in which he declared publically that Solentia in case of conflict would be ready to stand alongside Solentia. We have responded to unilateral decisions with other unilateral decisions, so please stop with this accusation only against my nation because it's clear that also Solentia have its responsibilities if we have reached that point. About your last questions presented here http://classic.particracy.net/viewbill.php?billid=497226 we have already assured that we have not intention to responde with other military act (mobilization) to your mobilization of forces along our borders. We don't have any malevolent intention toward Solentia, we have no take and we will not take any measures towards your citizens or your military personnel within our borders, no limitation of their personal freedoms, no limitation of their freedom of movement, nothing of that, we asked only to your military personnel in the SCUDO and in the ISDA's naval command to not enter in the facilities until the situation is resolved. About the fate of our alliance, now in Istalia was elected a new President and we are consulting with him to take a decisions. In effect we are very concern about the continue of our alliance and we have to well think about all this situation. Because there are not only military bonds to tie our two nations, after so long time, also our economy is very tied. Such a decision, to put an end to our alliance, will have serious impact on our economy, but we think that the most serious impact would suffer Solentia (OOC: http://forum.particracy.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=7077 between a strong economy nation and a less strong economy nation realistically It would be the second to suffer more). Personally, I would start a more relaxed dialogue with you to find a solution to this impasse. But, as already declared by us, Solentia have to think very careful how would manage its foreign policy in the future. Because I think that I have not to explain you how work the international relationships, I think that anyone know that if exist an alliance with another nation, the foreign policy have to consider this alliance and the position of the ally. We don't want limit Solentia, but an alliance such the ISDA that you accepted to create, you understand that impose some responsabilities to the parties. We never hidden the situation between us and Saridan, it's known internationally! But you decided to ignore it and move on to created and strengthen your relationships with Saridan. Personally I also declared exceptionally to accept a treaty so focused on the military matters between you and Saridan, a treaty that in other alliance would have meant the immediate end of all relationships between the parties (and my previous President was also bothered by my disponibility toward you, because he was very concerned about our national security), but I showed this position to show you how I care of this alliance with you. |
| Date | 03:55:15, December 22, 2016 CET | From | SUN | To | Debating the OOC/RP: Senate Committee on Saridan-Telamonia Tensions |
| Message | Minister De Michelis, Announce that relations are normalized with the Republic of Solentia, dissolve the 'crisis' committee [ooc: delete the Solentian Crisis bill], and tell your nation you solved an international crisis. We will lift the yellow alert. Sincerely, President William Anton |
| Date | 10:34:50, December 22, 2016 CET | From | Alleanza Radicale - NCD | To | Debating the OOC/RP: Senate Committee on Saridan-Telamonia Tensions |
| Message | President Anton, you are give us some like.... orders? Please, retire your yellow alert first and then we will announce the normalized of the relations. We already showed our disponibility, I have convinced two Presidents of the Republic to do not take drastic action about the ISDA, now, it's time that Solentia will show its disponibility. It's not my nations in yellow alert, only Solentia. About your military personnel, they are able since today to enter without limitation in the ISDA facilities. But, it rest the problems of your relationships with Saridan and always now there are the problems of the dangerous increasing rapprochement between Saridan and Beiteynu, another nation together with Saridan 'shame of the world'. Could The Democratic Republic of Solentia, please, tell us what kind of future relationships will want conduct toward these nations? The Istalian Ministry of Foreign Affairs launched the vote on the resolution to impose sanctions ogainst Saridan: what Solentia will be about this? We already proposed to your Foreign Minister to create an internal bill with which Solentia accept to be committed to conducting detailed screening about goods, funds and people departing to and arriving from Saridan to not frustrate the Istalian sanctions. But, I advice you, if Solentia or Solentian companies will discovered to trade armament and military equipment with Saridan, this will mean the definitive end of the ISDA and of our relationships. We already are accepting a trade treaty between you and Saridan, we already are accepting that Solentia established military relationships with Saridan, we had already been reassure about the military and intelligence data of the ISDA, but we will can not accept that Saridan will receive military equipment from Solentia. And for the future, could you use a kinder and more available tone? The crisis committee also will be dissolve when you will communicate us the lift of the yellow alert, because the Ministry of Foreign Affairs shall update the nation until the end of this situation and when you will leave the yellow alert I shall communicate that to the Committee. Thank you. |
| Date | 22:52:18, December 22, 2016 CET | From | SUN | To | Debating the OOC/RP: Senate Committee on Saridan-Telamonia Tensions |
| Message | It was your rude and accusatory tone to our Foreign Ministry that established the tone of this non-event and convinced our Senate to vote unanimously for the alliance with Saridan. The more you talk, the more damage you do. We will talk with the next government. We have nothing more to discuss. Thank you Minister, you are dismissed. President William Anton |
| Date | 04:12:48, January 02, 2017 CET | From | SUN | To | Debating the OOC/RP: Senate Committee on Saridan-Telamonia Tensions |
| Message | We propose we put this issue behind us and dissolve this Senate committee. Linda Hamilton Senator, (Orame) |
| Date | 04:16:31, January 02, 2017 CET | From | SUN | To | Debating the OOC/RP: Senate Committee on Saridan-Telamonia Tensions |
| Message | Or; if we prefer, put it to a vote. Linda Hamilton Senator, (Orame) |
| Date | 05:04:22, January 02, 2017 CET | From | SUN | To | Debating the OOC/RP: Senate Committee on Saridan-Telamonia Tensions |
| Message | We vote yes. This issue is years behind us and the only ones bringing it up have an axe to grind as the saying goes. We also reaffirm our alliance with Saridan and promote a diplomatic solution to any further tensions. |
| Date | 00:37:20, January 04, 2017 CET | From | Social-Democratic Party | To | Debating the OOC/RP: Senate Committee on Saridan-Telamonia Tensions |
| Message | We want to close this Foreign Affairs" term. |
| Date | 00:50:36, January 04, 2017 CET | From | Solentian Nationalist People's Party | To | Debating the OOC/RP: Senate Committee on Saridan-Telamonia Tensions |
| Message | Yes, because Jane Richards got so much done in her term. Foreign Affairs under John Carter have arguably had a lasting impact on the history and future of Solentia. To argue otherwise is foolish. Kurt Meyer, SNPP President |
| Date | 01:54:57, January 04, 2017 CET | From | Social-Democratic Party | To | Debating the OOC/RP: Senate Committee on Saridan-Telamonia Tensions |
| Message | The only things the SNPP has achieved is ratifying treaties about sports organisations and ruining relations with Istalia. We do not have to applaud the SNPP for that. The rest of the hard work was all done by the SUN, since they were way more experienced. |
| Date | 02:16:58, January 04, 2017 CET | From | Solentian Nationalist People's Party | To | Debating the OOC/RP: Senate Committee on Saridan-Telamonia Tensions |
| Message | The SDP can promulgate that revisionist view of history, but it will fall on deaf ears. The SNPP took leadership in establishing the T8 treaty with 7 other nations of Terra. Yes, the SUN helped immensely in this venture, but the SNPP laid the groundwork for the treaty. The SNPP did not ruin relations with Istalia. They childishly protested us gaining a new ally, Saridan. The SUN did their best to ease tensions and calm the situation, but the PSLI continued to escalate tensions further. The PSLI created the crisis in order to establish a casus belli for sanctions against Saridan. That has been documented by the SUN. The SUN's experience was helpful, yes. But to say that they did the hard work is wrong. Using your opinion about the crisis with Istalia, they would share responsibility with the SNPP for ruining relations. The SDP can continue to spread their false view of history, but I am confident that the majority of Solentia view the SNPP and Mr. Carter in a favorable light. Franklin McCarthy, SNPP Chairman |
| Date | 03:44:46, January 06, 2017 CET | From | SUN | To | Debating the OOC/RP: Senate Committee on Saridan-Telamonia Tensions |
| Message | For once we agree more with the SDP than the SNPP. Sad. |
| Date | 04:01:42, January 06, 2017 CET | From | SUN | To | Debating the OOC/RP: Senate Committee on Saridan-Telamonia Tensions |
| Message | FM Carter went to Deltaria per the President's request and came back with a good treaty. The President hailed this as an alternative to global free trade and wanted to add more nations to it. FM Carter was dispatched to Saridan and Likatonia and added these. The President then asked FM Carter to look into 4 more nations to add. When it became clear that Carter was doing nothing, the President then contacted these 4 nations and 16 others who seemed good candidates. Chancellor Thanopoulos personally addressed these countries in their legislatures asking them to join. It is no question who deserves what credit. SUN doesn't seek any personal glory, we want to make Solentia the greatest country in all Terra and we want to build the largest, wealthiest, most influential trading bloc. Paul Schrader former Minister of Defence |
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Voting
| Vote | Seats | |||||||
| yes |
Total Seats: 116 | |||||||
| no | Total Seats: 0 | |||||||
| abstain |
Total Seats: 384 |
| Random fact: Selucia is Particracy's modern take on Ancient Rome, located on the continent of Majatra. |
| Random quote: "Benefits should be conferred gradually; and in that way they will taste better." - Niccolo Machiavelli |