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Currently online (5): CitiRule | Ecclesia | Twinge | WehrFoxDran | Wilson_Roosevelt | Record: 63 on 23:28:53, August 06, 2007 CET

Bill: D.d.l. 01/4270: Pro-buisness reform

Details

Submitted by[?]: Unione dei Liberal Democratici

Status[?]: passed

Votes: This is an ordinary bill. It requires more yes votes than no votes. This bill will not pass any sooner than the deadline.

Voting deadline: June 4271

Description[?]:

Andrea Fogghi, Internal Affair Minister


We believe that a free market is created by free people, and people are free when they have rights. And we must grant these fundamental rights to our workers.

Proposals

Debate

These messages have been posted to debate on this bill:

Date04:54:54, September 11, 2017 CET
From Confederazione Capitalista
ToDebating the D.d.l. 01/4270: Pro-buisness reform
MessageErardo Pula, Leader of C.C.

"We will strongly oppose this anti-business, anti-capitalist, and anti-trade proposal. The fact that the current ministry is willing to introduce this as a D.d.l. is an indicator of how far we've come as a nation - in the absolute wrong direction!"

Date13:11:33, September 11, 2017 CET
FromLibertà e Progresso
ToDebating the D.d.l. 01/4270: Pro-buisness reform
MessageGiorgia Mulino, Whip of LP:

"Mr President Emeritus Pula,
are you saying that a friendly business, capitalist and trade proposal should make gifts only to the Patronage, only to the Employers? Well... I don't think this is "Capitalism". No theory on free market and capitalism provides that the workers should be trait like slaves, on the mercy of the patronage. Or, better, in effect the Capitalism doesn't have an ethics. Also the wages depends by the market, but the market doesn't take in account all this. Free Market can lead, well... often lead to concentrate wealth, pass environmental costs on to society, and abuse workers and consumers.

Mr Pula, here, we are think to all the citizens, not only to the patronage. You are, as well as all your collegues of CC, representatives of the Istalian people, not only of those who voted for you. We here should work for the good of all Istalia, not only this or that category.
It is easy gain and make money if you can pay a miserable wage, or if the workers cannot protest for economic demands because they fear to be fired.

The people who pay you and your electoral campaign Mr Pula, would be not so rich if didn't exist the workers. They are human beings, like you, me and their employers.

And, sorry, but with all these protests you show to be extremely ignorant about capitalism and growth! All the most recent researchs say that economic inequality, which is generated mainly by the iniquity in the income, generate hinders to the economic growth on the long period while political and social instability growth and generate even more problems than all the deregulations you propsoe can solve. In brief, income equality is more beneficial than trade openness, sound political institutions, or foreign investment.

As per the latest research on the sector, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_inequality#Economic_growth there are clear evidence that too much inequality generate more problems and hinders the economic growth while if this equality remain on moderate level, this will be beneficials for the economic growth.
And this is sure, stamp out the rights of workers to protect their own wages and rights can only increase dramatically the economic inequality and so generate more problems than the hiper-capitalist solutions say to solve.

In a world like the our, where the human capital is even more reserached and more scarcer then machines, for example, the real secret of the future economic growth is become the education! And broadly accessible education is both difficult to achieve when income distribution is uneven and tends to reduce income gaps between skilled and unskilled labor.

So, despite all your statements, the facts and the studies shows how the hiper-liberal approach cannot realize what it offers."

Date13:12:19, September 11, 2017 CET
FromLibertà e Progresso
ToDebating the D.d.l. 01/4270: Pro-buisness reform
MessageOOC: D.d.l. 01/4270*

Date17:02:28, September 11, 2017 CET
FromCittadini Social Liberali
ToDebating the D.d.l. 01/4270: Pro-buisness reform
MessageOOC: apply water to burned area

Date18:38:17, September 11, 2017 CET
From Partito Nazionale d'Istalia/di Padagna
ToDebating the D.d.l. 01/4270: Pro-buisness reform
MessageLuigi Trafelli, AI Speaker for Finance,

This is simply false, we support every single word the honorable gentleman of the CC AND LP said, however the solution to the problem, mostly caused by the excessive government, is not more government. Which is infringing on the free market and hindering people from claiming the fruit of their labour by taxes and promoting inefficiency with subsidies and a welfare state.

The answer is a meritocratic system, where the market, ie. Our demand; decides who will get rich or poor! If you don't work you don't eat. In the modern not only industrialized, but digitalized world, the market value for unqualified labour is sadly mitigated to below the probably enforced minimum wage. Whilst qualified labour is not only getting rich, but richer than ever before as their skills are high in demand, hence the name skilled labour.

There are only two answers to income inequality: education/training and more capitalism, as real wages would rise for those who work, due to the meritocracy, and prices would fall due to reduced expenditure of the freed; by us; enterprise! Whilst what you are proposing is against any free economic values which we are fighting for, namely the fact that any increase in social benefits will ultimately only cause inflation which would require more benefits to counteract, creating a vicious circle. We must prevent it, hence prevent the seemingly noble minimum wage! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_economic_freedom

We urge everyone to vote against this bill, which is the very definition of the good old saying: "The road to hell is paved with good intentions".

Thank you.

Date18:41:45, September 11, 2017 CET
From Partito Nazionale d'Istalia/di Padagna
ToDebating the D.d.l. 01/4270: Pro-buisness reform
MessageOOC: Not min wage but working hours and firing

Date20:19:50, September 11, 2017 CET
FromLibertà e Progresso
ToDebating the D.d.l. 01/4270: Pro-buisness reform
MessageOOC: all this is so funny ahahahahahahhahahahahaha

Date20:52:43, September 11, 2017 CET
FromLibertà e Progresso
ToDebating the D.d.l. 01/4270: Pro-buisness reform
MessageGiorgia Mulino:

"The problem here is that only into a perfect world what you said can fully work alone Mr Trafelli.
Meritocracy can work if all the involved parties act with honesty and fairly behavior, but the men... A h... The men are so weak... And often, too often, the desire to gain more and more on the skin of the other men, exploiting them as possible, weakened the human spirit.
Without limts the patronage, into a clear better position, would be able to exploit the workers as they would want, workers who will be abused whatever will be their committment in their works.
This is not a punishment for anyone. This is a protection for the workers, so that they will be again able to deal and negotiate with the patronage in a better position than now. And then, about the daily hours, how a worker could be able to demand a fair number of ours if without this law the employer simply will deny this right to the worker. And so? What should have to do the worker? leave its work? Ahahahhahah and I'm sure I have to explain you why this is a behavior which apply only to a little group of workers, most part professionists with high, very high capabilities. Maybe into a world of full employement... But, be serious, even the most liberal economies never reached the full employement!
And sorry, the people don't eat not only because they don't want do nothing, this is a classic stereotype used by the hyper liberalist. Unfurtunately many people reduce themself to don't work or do other things due to poor and difficult and degradate reality in which they growth, maybe generated due to low income which the parents had to accept without possibility to contest it. How these people can have access to education and meritocracy if we leave them into their limbo of corporate abuse, exploitation, poverty and degrade?
And to fight all this, liberalism can do nothing! We needs of social assistance, and clearly valuntary caritative associations cannot compete with the Government. It is not a sin work to aid people.
It is not a sin put to ALL those involved into the market in the position to fairly compete. There is no fair negotiation if one of the side have all the possibility to use tools to force it in its favor when the other have no tools to protect itself by all this.

OOC: in the link you showed among the nations with the better quality life (like the scandinavian ones) many are ranked among the average economically free Nations.
And sorry, but between USA and danmark or sweden, the scandinavian ones forever!!!!!!
And I'm quite sure that also in Canada and Australia exist right chart of workers (if you want I past the canadian one) which indicate minimum wage, protection from the unemployement, extrahours, payed holidays and so on and so on. Without daily hour regulations how to grant to the workers the fair payement of extra hours?

Date00:08:01, September 12, 2017 CET
From Partito Nazionale d'Istalia/di Padagna
ToDebating the D.d.l. 01/4270: Pro-buisness reform
MessageOoc: funnily enough, Denmark is higher in both economic freedom and quality of life than US, and 9 other countries are as well. And I do not like sweden, at all, but that is a different debate.

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Voting

Vote Seats
yes
    

Total Seats: 326

no
  

Total Seats: 309

abstain

    Total Seats: 0


    Random fact: It is not allowed to call more than 5 elections in 5 game years in a nation. The default sanction for a player persisting in the early election tactic will be a seat reset.

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