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Bill: Lex Pro Patria
Details
Status[?]: defeated
Votes: This is an ordinary bill. It requires more yes votes than no votes. This bill will not pass any sooner than the deadline.
Voting deadline: November 4471
Description[?]:
| In an effort to restore pride and trust in the capability of our nation's armed forces, it is necessary to modernise weapon stockpiles in an effort to ensure military parity with nearby powers. As part of a wider effort to attract professionals, academics and engineers from right around the globe, it is necessary to enable research into areas relating to chemical and biological weaponry. The vast majority of countries allow such research: Selucia, needless to say, does not; a policy which must be at once reversed. Moreover, the existing policy of allowing women to enlist for front-line roles is something of an oddity: biological contrasts between men and women ought to be celebrated, not ignored. As such, we propose that women are continue to serve, but only in roles which does not see them directly take part in combat operations. A strong sense of cohesion and belonging is inevitable in combat units composed entirely of men - and, naturally, men are almost always athletically and physically unparalleled. This is not to denigrate women themselves: women are indeed capable of many things which men are not, but in this particular matter, our policy must reflect facts - and facts alone. Lucius Piscius Octobrianus Minister of Defence |
Proposals
Article 1
Proposal[?] to change Women in the military.
Old value:: Women serve alongside men.
Current: Women have no place in the military.
Proposed: Women can only serve in non-battle positions.
Article 2
Proposal[?] to change The government's policy concerning biological and chemical weaponry.
Old value:: The nation shall never develop, purchase or store biological or chemical weaponry.
Current: The nation reserves the right to develop, construct and store biological and chemical weapons.
Proposed: The nation shall never purchase, produce, or store biological or chemical weaponry, for military purposes. Research and development of the technology is permitted.
Debate
These messages have been posted to debate on this bill:
| Date | 22:30:31, October 17, 2018 CET | From | Clara Aurora - COSIRA | To | Debating the Lex Pro Patria |
| Message | These statements are unacceptable, and more coming from a Minister of the Government. It is interesting to see how the biological argument is used for things that have nothing to do with it, for people who do not know what is being talked about. All the argument put forward by Mr. Octobrianus is based on the concept of placing men at the center of everything, and making women adapt to it. As a species, we have to remember that, regardless of sex, we have to work side by side and, if necessary, if we must fight for our country, helping each other as much as possible. Also, to say that men are more athletic than women is based on what standards? It is generally true if we speak of brute force (something that is not even used at present in wars, which are developed with weapons or electrical devices). However, it is also scientifically proven that women have more neuronal connections and, therefore, more brain capacity, which could help in tactical combat, don't you think? Why not relegate men to positions other than combat, since physical force is no longer an indispensable requirement in current conflicts? To finish criticizing this law lacking logic, we want to remind the Hon. Minister Octobrianus that the symbol of our nation is the lion. And in a pack of lions, those who hunt are them, the lionesses Helios Sigilis Dux Oppositionis. |
| Date | 23:34:58, October 17, 2018 CET | From | Optimates | To | Debating the Lex Pro Patria |
| Message | Senators, I cannot tolerate this absurd pseudo-science put forth by the leader of the opposition. Men have fought wars for thousands of years - and indeed it has been almost exclusively men. This is simply not a coincidence. I furthermore reject the notion that physical fitness is no longer indispensable to modern day conflict - in that case, how about we conscript the morbidly obese and see how they fare? We can surely both agree that such an experiment would not end well. I moreover reject the suggestion that this proposal is a sexist, or indeed male-centric one. This is simply not true. If it were the case that we cared neither here nor there for women, we'd undoubtedly be recruiting them in droves and having them sent immediately to the front line in times of war. Obviously, that is not the intention: for as long as it remains true that men are generally the stronger sex, why would we ever opt to recruit women to combat roles? In fact, the leader of the opposition and I can absolutely agree on one thing: women are undoubtedly quick-witted, intelligent and methodical in their approach to work, which is why they are so well suited to roles that do not see them on the front line. Why can't we simply respect the biological differences between men and women? Lucius Piscius Octobrianus Minister of Defence |
| Date | 00:49:29, October 18, 2018 CET | From | Partis Communis Seluciae | To | Debating the Lex Pro Patria |
| Message | Senators, The anti-historical arguments put forth by those senators in the Optimates are simply ridiculous. Yes, it is true that men have made up the bulk of the fighting force in our armies and many others, but to ignore the legends shieldmaidens of Kazulia or Telamon as well as the many histories of women in combat is simply ignorant at best and dishonest at worst. And this is all besides the point, strength is not as required as much as cool head and trigger discipline. While it is certainly necessary for certain duties, it isn't the entirety of these duties faced by our armed forces. We are not thousands of years in the past, our armed forces don't need to be. Marcella Hostillia Pars Laborem Candidate for Minister of Defence |
| Date | 00:55:58, October 18, 2018 CET | From | Partis Communis Seluciae | To | Debating the Lex Pro Patria |
| Message | Senators, The anti-historical arguments put forth by those senators in the Optimates are simply ridiculous. Yes, it is true that men have made up the bulk of the fighting force in our armies and many others, but to ignore the legends shieldmaidens of Kazulia or Telamon as well as the many histories of women in combat is simply ignorant at best and dishonest at worst. And this is all besides the point, strength is not as required as much as cool head and trigger discipline. While it is certainly necessary for certain duties, it isn't the entirety of these duties faced by our armed forces. We are not thousands of years in the past, our armed forces don't need to be. Marcella Hostillia Pars Laborem Candidate for Minister of Defence |
| Date | 00:56:23, October 18, 2018 CET | From | Partis Communis Seluciae | To | Debating the Lex Pro Patria |
| Message | OOC: Don't reload the page after sending the message, it resends. |
| Date | 09:46:29, October 18, 2018 CET | From | Factio Republicana Socialistica | To | Debating the Lex Pro Patria |
| Message | Senators, Our military serves two main purposes. One is the defense of our Republic from external tyranny and invasion and the ability to project our military power abroad to defend our national interests. The other, and perhaps more important one, is creating committed and virtuous citizens through the establishment of a military ethic of solidarity resulting from the fact that our armed forces are largely equivalent to our entire citizen body. Biological arguments may impact the former purpose, but certainly not the latter. Through the socialization of conscription and service in our Militia, Selucians of all ethnicities and genders learn the value of solidarity and, as a result, become better citizens. It has been said that war is politics through other means. In other words, the military has primarily political aims, and tactical and strategic considerations should be secondary to the achievement of our political goals. And in Selucia our main political goal is virtue, without which no Republic can last. For this reason we will have to disagree with our coalition partners and defend the continuation of gender-mixed conscription policy. Salvius Gallus Senator |
| Date | 15:47:50, October 18, 2018 CET | From | Factio Unitatis Patriae | To | Debating the Lex Pro Patria |
| Message | Senators, This debate has become somewhat dominated by the arguments regarding women serving on the frontline. The second article of this bill seems to have been sidelined, which is a pity. I believe there is much merit in reigniting research and development into biological and chemical weaponry as it will certainly attract global scientists, engineers and associated professionals to our nation and will have spin-off benefits in many fields of scientific research - not least virology and genetics. Therefore, I will vote for the Minister of Defence's proposal. Quintus Viridius Fabianus Senator |
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Voting
| Vote | Seats | ||||
| yes |
Total Seats: 105 | ||||
| no |
Total Seats: 645 | ||||
| abstain | Total Seats: 0 |
| Random fact: Culturally Open nations can adopt advisory/non-enforceable Nation Descriptions. See http://forum.particracy.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6242 |
| Random quote: "You don't have to explain something you never said." - Calvin Coolidge |