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Bill: Lex Tiburtia de Classibus (RP Law)
Details
Submitted by[?]: Factio Republicana Socialistica
Status[?]: passed
Votes: This is an ordinary bill. It requires more yes votes than no votes. This bill will not pass any sooner than the deadline.
Voting deadline: May 4477
Description[?]:
| Tiburtian Law on Classes Senators, A key part of our party's campaign is the fundamental necessity of class struggle for the longevity and civil freedom of Republics, and Selucia is no different. In order to have a functioning and stable democratic regime we must hold elites accountable to the common citizens through an antagonistic spirit and concrete institutional arrangements other than elections. Our Plebeian view on the necessity of class conflict moves beyond traditional Republicanism, which is more fearful of the tyranny of the majority than that of invulnerable political and economic elites, but is also critical of the failure of Metzist and Socialist thought to develop institutional means of controlling elites due to its illusion that they can be overcome altogether. Instead we understand that aristocracy is natural and unavoidable, that politics is primarily about conflict between competing interests and conceptions of the good, that class rivalry results in active preservation of liberty at home and military success abroad, that antagonism and discord leads to a richer public life, increased political participation, and a politics dedicated to the common good, that in order to be successful class conflict must be organized in an orderly and lawful manner, necessary to avoid undue disruptions while keeping insolent elites in their place, and that democracy must be measured first and foremost based on the constraints and burdens placed on leadership rather than the common focus of equality and inclusion. But if we are to institutionalize class conflict, we must first institutionalize classes. For this reason we call for the official introduction of a formally defined and publicly visible aristocracy, formed of the political and socioeconomic elites that carry most influence over Selucia's public life. Our conception of the Republic's reorganization takes its inspiration from ancient Republics, where the citizenry was divided into ordinary citizens and an aristocratic elite, but where the latter had to endure a number of unique political and economic burdens, such as formal audits, exposure to shouts and humiliation in front of an assembled crowd, and munera or liturgies (mandatory public works financed through the personal expense of wealthy citizens). Although the introduction of differentiated citizenship based on property, wealth, and political power would indicate that common citizens are second-class citizens, first-class citizens would have to endure various political and economic burdens through which they will return to the Republic what they have unduly gained. In order to institutionalize the Republic's classes, we propose the following measures: I. The office of Censor is established, formed of two Senators elected by the Senate and serving a single non-renewable ten year term, with the responsibility of carrying out and overseeing the regular census of the Selucian population, to take place once every ten years. II. Based on the results of the census, all adult Selucian citizens shall be assigned their membership in a political and economic class, as outlined below: a. Any citizen who has attained high honors, including a seat in the Senate, a Ministry, a Praetorship, the position of Head of State or Head of Government, or the position of Supreme Court justice shall be considered a Nobilis (Noble). All Nobiles shall have the right to wear a golden ring. b. All adult citizens, based on income, profession, and education shall be assigned to one of the below Orders.The rank of Nobilis can be held by any citizen irrespective of their Order membership. Should any citizen's Order membership criteria be unclear, profession shall take priority over income, and education shall take priority over profession. i. The Ordo Senatorius (Senatorial Order) shall be formed of those citizens who have graduated from a prestigious university, are investors, heirs, or top executives, and who earn the top 1% household income. Senatores shall have the right to wear a toga with a broad purple stripe, maroon shoes, and an iron ring, and shall have the right to privileged seats at games and public functions. ii. The Ordo Equester (Equestrian Order) shall be formed of all citizens who have graduated from college or university, are professionals and upper managers, and earn the 9% household income below the previous Order. Equites shall have the right to wear the tunica angusticlavia and shall have the right to privileged seats at games and public functions, behind those reserved for Senatores. iii. The Triarii shall consist of all citizens who have graduated high school or college, are semiprofessionals, lower managers, craftspeople, or foremen, and earn the following 35% household income. iv. The Principes shall consist of all citizens who have graduated high school, are factory workers, clerical workers, retail salespeople, farmers, or craftspeople, and earn the following 35% household income. v. The Hastati shall consist of all citizens with high school or some high school education, who are laborers, service workers, or low-paid salespeople, and who earn the following 20% household income. vi. The Capite Censi shall consist of all citizens with some or no high school education, who are unemployed or part-time laborers, and who earn the bottom 5% household income. III. Nobiles, Senatores, and Equites shall have the obligation to provide munera, mandatory publicized contributions to the Republic, on their own expense and in proportion to their income, including organizing gladiatorial games and other sporting events, organizing public feasts and banquets, building and maintaining theaters and cinemas, and building and repairing places of worship, including churches, temples, mosques, and synagogues. Other munera may be established by the Senate. IV. The provision of munera shall be supervised by the municipal, provincial, and national governments. V. Failure to provide munera shall be deemed tax evasion and shall be punished accordingly. Cyprianus Tiburtius Numitor Princeps Senatus OOC: This is a regular RP Law, as governed by Section 6.e. of the Game Rules (http://forum.particracy.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=8088). This bill introduces the classification of Selucian citizens into different "classes: based on income, profession, education, and the attainment of political office, establishes a "nobility" formed of the wealthiest and most powerful citizens, and imposes public duties on the "nobles". |
Proposals
Article 1
Proposal[?] to change Titles of nobility.
Old value:: No titles of nobility are granted or recognised, their use is forbidden.
Current: Titles of nobility may be granted only by the Head of State.
Proposed: Titles of nobility may be granted by the government and any other political body designated by it.
Article 2
Proposal[?] to change Privileges of nobility (if nobility is recognised by the government).
Old value:: Nobility confers only titles and certain minor rights, but no political powers, and is not hereditary.
Current: Nobility confers major rights, and can be hereditary.
Proposed: Nobility confers titles and minor political rights, but no direct control over people or land, and is not hereditary.
Debate
These messages have been posted to debate on this bill:
| Date | 13:03:42, October 23, 2018 CET | From | Clara Aurora - COSIRA | To | Debating the Lex Tiburtia de Classibus (RP Law) |
| Message | Senators, As Leader of this august chamber, I will not allow this bill to continue its proccess until our Supreme Court resolves not the morality of this law, which could also be put in doubt, but its legality. This goes against the basic principles of our Republic and our Constitution, that stablishes same rights for all our citizens. Adia Pastora Princeps Senatus |
| Date | 13:28:26, October 23, 2018 CET | From | Factio Republicana Socialistica | To | Debating the Lex Tiburtia de Classibus (RP Law) |
| Message | Of course, once the new Supreme Court is seated we will gladly defend our proposal in court. Cyprianus Tiburtius Numitor Senator |
| Date | 20:53:15, October 23, 2018 CET | From | Factio Unitatis Patriae | To | Debating the Lex Tiburtia de Classibus (RP Law) |
| Message | As a point of order, does the Princeps Senatus have the authority to prevent this legislation being processed i.e be debated and voted upon while a Supreme Court judgement is sought? Or should the legislation only be sent to the Supreme Court for a potential recommendation to overturn it after it has been voted on and approved by the Senate? Quintus Viridius Fabianus Senator; Party Leader |
| Date | 21:02:07, October 23, 2018 CET | From | Clara Aurora - COSIRA | To | Debating the Lex Tiburtia de Classibus (RP Law) |
| Message | Hon. Fabianus, As Leader of this chamber, among my functions there are: -Adopt as many decisions and measures as required for the organization of work and the internal regime and government of the Chamber. -Qualify, according to the Regulation, the writings and documents of parliamentary nature, as well as declare the admissibility or inadmissibility of the same. -Decide on the processing of all documents and documents of a parliamentary nature, in accordance with the rules established in the Regulation. -Program the general lines of action of the Chamber, set the schedule of activities of the Plenary and Commissions for each session and coordinate the work of its various bodies, all after hearing the Board of Spokesmen. -Any others entrusted to me by the Regulation and those that are not attributed to a specific body. -Hold the representation of the Chamber, ensure the smooth running of the work, direct the debates and maintain the order of the same. It is up to the President to comply with and enforce the Regulation, interpreting it in cases of doubt and supplying it in cases of omission. Therefore, if under my understanding there is a law that is proposed that violates the basic rules of our Constitution (in the same way that, if for example, a law were proposed to prohibit political parties), I can prevent its processing if it has to be appealed before justice, as is the case. Once the Court pronounces itself, if the sentence is favorable I can not place any impediment and I will authorize the vote of the law, which could be appealed again by any political party or person once approved, if it is the case. Adia Pastora Princeps Senatus |
| Date | 10:08:37, October 24, 2018 CET | From | Factio Republicana Socialistica | To | Debating the Lex Tiburtia de Classibus (RP Law) |
| Message | Princeps Pastora, to be clear, you do not have the power to unilaterally block legislation even if it is qualified by the Supreme Court as unconstitutional. According to the Velian Law on the Supreme Court legislation passed by the Senate that is judged by the Court to be unconstitutional can still be reaffirmed by the Senate. Legislative power in Selucia belongs to the Senate, not the Supreme Court. And your office is the leadership of the Senate, embodying its auctoritas and holiness, but it is not the Senate itself, nor does it necessarily represent the majority party. There is no written legislation or precedent that would grant your office the power that you claim. In Selucia, as in the vast majority of democracies, any legislator can initiate a floor vote, and in those few nations where the Speaker has the power to determine which bills reach the floor (OOC: like in the US), the legislature can nonetheless initiate a discharge petition that brings the bill to the floor by majority vote in spite of the Speaker's opposition. So, respectfully, I have no intention of submitting to your threat, and I will initiate a floor vote on this bill regardless of your opposition. As a Senator you are nonetheless free to appeal this legislation to the Supreme Court, under Article X of the Velian Law. I am confident that the Court will grant me relief, as I am convinced that this bill is fully in line with current legislation, including the Bill of Rights. If I did not believe this bill would enhance democracy and equality in the Republic I would not have proposed it. If however the Court finds the bill unconstitutional, I am willing to listen to their arguments and if necessary amend this bill. But make no mistake: neither I nor the Senate as a body is obliged to follow the Court's recommendations, nor is your office empowered to unilaterally veto any bill. Cyprianus Tiburtius Numitor Senator |
| Date | 11:27:59, October 24, 2018 CET | From | Factio Unitatis Patriae | To | Debating the Lex Tiburtia de Classibus (RP Law) |
| Message | Senators, We thank our colleague, Senator Numitor, for clarifying the matter. Therefore, with the leave of the Princeps Senatus and the rest of this house I would like to add something to the debate before it is is moved to a floor vote. As I made it clear in the debate regarding Lex Siglia de Nobilitatis (http://classic.particracy.net/viewbill.php?billid=584777), our party fully subscribes to the idea that the emergence of an aristocracy is natural and unavoidable. Attempting to artificially stifle the nobility is, therefore, not a healthy situation - and the current law forbidding the nobility tries to do just that. Much better to accept that an aristocracy exists side by side with others classes and to encourage and ensure those in privileged positions pay their way and are obliged to help society rather than ostracise them, drive them out and lose their wealth and influence - potentially to another nation. Therefore, while I would prefer to see more of a carrot than stick approach to the situation and I feel some areas of the provision of munera in this bill are rather limited (e.g. perhaps the new political and economic classes could be linked to a new income tax framework where the money they contribute could be used in a more general way), our party is willing to vote yes on this bill, simply because it is a far superior situation to the current law. Quintus Viridius Fabianus Senator; Party Leader |
| Date | 12:30:24, October 24, 2018 CET | From | Factio Republicana Socialistica | To | Debating the Lex Tiburtia de Classibus (RP Law) |
| Message | Senators, A skilled politician knows when to use the carrot and when to use the stick and knows when to follow or when to violate common morality. In the case of Selucia's natural aristocracy we believe that, just like in every other liberal democracy, the balance is heavily skewed towards the wealthy and the powerful. Even those democracies that have reduced the impact of wealth on politics, they have not done so entirely, and in spite of the egalitarian achievements of advanced social democratic states, even there the political system is skewed towards plutocratic elements. Because of this we believe the balance between the carrot and the stick is way off, and this needs correcting. Capital must be disciplined if it is to act in the interests of the common good rather than those of the wealthy. A big part of disciplining capital and ensuring a politics of the common good is class struggle. I find it disappointing that a self-proclaimed party of the Left has openly abandoned class conflict and now considers the concept of class "retrograde and meaningless". Selucia is not a classless society, classes are very much alive and well, and so is its aristocracy. Like it or not, Mr. Sigilis and myself are both aristocrats. We are not equal to the common people, and claiming otherwise is to openly and blatantly lie to all Selucians. Rather than claim that we and those like us are hard-working common folk who got where we are through our own merits, it is far more honest to recognize the truth, that Selucia is a stratified society, that an aristocracy exists, and that, as is natural for an aristocracy, it possesses disproportionate influence and power over the political system. In response to Senator Fabianus' comments on the provision of munera, I do agree that a more expansive system is necessary. This bill introduces the framework necessary for implementing class-conscious policies, including the alignment of income taxation to the Orders established by this bill. A census is still necessary before such policies can be implemented however, so if this bill passes we shall support bringing other policies in line with the proposed classification of Selucian society. Cyprianus Tiburtius Numitor Senator |
| Date | 22:36:16, October 24, 2018 CET | From | Clara Aurora - COSIRA | To | Debating the Lex Tiburtia de Classibus (RP Law) |
| Message | Senators, All the "duties" proposed by Caesar Numitor to be done by those so-called "nobles" are already done indirectly through the payment of taxes and the administration of the government. We of course recognize that there are different groups in Selucia, but instead of reinforcing them and therefore reinforcing inequality, we should fight for its total elimination. I am a politician, but I do not consider myself to be above anyone else, as Mr. Numitor wants to think about himself. That is why IMCS adjusted the salary of politicians to be in line with common citizens, for example, instead of placing ourselves above them. Members of In Marea already contribute by donating part of their salary to charitable institutions and foundations, and we do so because we area aware about the current problem about the so called classes. This is a flagrant violation of the institution of the Republic, and In Marea will not play in this circus. Similarly, the challenge posed by the Caesar to the visible head of this institution is unacceptable. It is a conflict between the legislative and executive powers. As if a government minister decided that why should he obey what the law says, if the Senate has voted otherwise. We must remember that, perhaps, the laws were also created by citizens, that they did not fall from heaven? Or that part is omitted? Helios Sigilis Dux Oppositionis |
| Date | 10:31:56, October 25, 2018 CET | From | Factio Republicana Socialistica | To | Debating the Lex Tiburtia de Classibus (RP Law) |
| Message | Senators, Painting the dispute between the Princeps Senatus and one Senator as a conflict between the legislative and the executive branches is inaccurate. Mr. Numitor is not the Caesar, he is a full and equal member of the Senate. The government has not involved itself in this dispute and, unless this bill passes, we have no reason to do so. The current coalition is supported by a majority in the Senate, and as such we have no cause to enter a dispute with the legislative body. The Princeps Senatus simply does not have the power claimed by Princeps Pastora, no Speaker in any democracy has unilateral veto power, and in this instance she does not even represent the Senatorial majority. This is not a conflict between the legislative and the executive, it is a conflict between the majority and the opposition. A conflict that is healthy in any democracy, but Ms. Pastora would do well to recognize she cannot claim authority she does not have as a tool in this conflict. Caecilia Bousaid Caesar |
| Date | 11:44:10, October 25, 2018 CET | From | Factio Unitatis Patriae | To | Debating the Lex Tiburtia de Classibus (RP Law) |
| Message | Senators, Given the current dispute and potential ambiguity, perhaps now would be a good time to review and formalise the role and responsibilities of the Princeps Senatus so that there is no doubt what the holder of this office can and can't do. As a relative newcomer to the Senate, I must admit I was somewhat confused about the role and would welcome clarification in the form of a bill ratified by this house, which could then be referred to. Quintus Viridius Fabianus Senator; Party Leader |
| Date | 12:19:34, October 25, 2018 CET | From | Factio Republicana Socialistica | To | Debating the Lex Tiburtia de Classibus (RP Law) |
| Message | Senators, I support Senator Fabianus' proposal and we agree that the role and powers of the Princeps Senatus need to be formalized. Additionally, I believe the procedure through which the Princeps is appointed does not reflect the actual majority in the Senate, and as such it needs to be revised, perhaps by requiring that the Princeps Senatus represent the largest party in government, which could then parallel the role of the Dux Oppositionis and ensure that the two offices are never held by the same party. Cyprianus Tiburtius Numitor Senator |
| Date | 16:22:03, October 27, 2018 CET | From | Clara Aurora - COSIRA | To | Debating the Lex Tiburtia de Classibus (RP Law) |
| Message | Senators, As one of the Heads of the Executive power, I hereby announce my opposition to this law. Fulvia Arusa Consul of Selucia |
| Date | 22:41:20, October 28, 2018 CET | From | Factio Republicana Socialistica | To | Debating the Lex Tiburtia de Classibus (RP Law) |
| Message | Senators, As the new Princeps Senatus I shall bring this bill forward to a floor vote. The bill has been amended in light of suggestions from Senator Fabianus, granting the Senate discretion to require more expansive munera in addition to those explicitly mentioned in the bill. The category of citizens that can be considered Nobiles has been expanded to include Supreme Court justices. Cyprianus Tiburtius Numitor Princeps Senatus |
| Date | 22:50:05, October 28, 2018 CET | From | Clara Aurora - COSIRA | To | Debating the Lex Tiburtia de Classibus (RP Law) |
| Message | OOC: Shouldn't this bill require 2/3 of the Camera? |
| Date | 23:15:46, October 28, 2018 CET | From | Factio Republicana Socialistica | To | Debating the Lex Tiburtia de Classibus (RP Law) |
| Message | OOC: My understanding is that this bill explains and details what the two In Game variables actually mean and how they are to be applied. "Titles of nobility may be granted by the government and any other political body designated by it." is to be applied by the office of Censor, a political body designated by the government according to Article I. The rest of the bill outlines under which conditions the titles of nobility are to be granted, and articles III, IV, an V detail what the "titles and minor political rights" are. Since these two variables are not constitutional, neither is the bill constitutional by nature. Changes to those variables should be considered as either amendments to this RP law or, if that's not a possible interpretation, as the abolition of the RP law. |
| Date | 00:09:50, October 29, 2018 CET | From | Clara Aurora - COSIRA | To | Debating the Lex Tiburtia de Classibus (RP Law) |
| Message | OOC: Okay then, I see So, if this is to be approved and/or applied by the government, what involvement the Consul has to avoid it? |
| Date | 09:44:19, October 29, 2018 CET | From | Factio Republicana Socialistica | To | Debating the Lex Tiburtia de Classibus (RP Law) |
| Message | OOC: As much as with any other bill passed by the Senate I think. They could refuse to implement it, but then they'd violate "primary legislation" passed by the Senate. Or, they could half-ass it and not apply it properly, which is always an option with any law really. |
| Date | 11:07:55, October 29, 2018 CET | From | Factio Unitatis Patriae | To | Debating the Lex Tiburtia de Classibus (RP Law) |
| Message | Senators, If the Consul Populi attempts to block primary legislation approved by a majority in this senate and, presumably, also endorsed by the Caesar and the rest of the cabinet, then this is surely another example of the stifling nature of the joint heads of state system and demonstrates the fact it needs to be reformed. The appropriate checks and balances over the constitutionality of legislation should lie in the hands of the justices of the Supreme Court. Attempts by In Marea-Civis Sinistram to use, first, the role of Princeps Senatus and then the Consul Populi to block the reading and execution of legislation are very, very unfortunate. Quintus Viridius Fabianus Senator; Party Leader |
| Date | 19:23:04, October 29, 2018 CET | From | Clara Aurora - COSIRA | To | Debating the Lex Tiburtia de Classibus (RP Law) |
| Message | OOC: This can lead to a good RP in the debate about eliminating our current system. IC: Mr. Fabianus forgets that the Consul has been directly chosen by the Selucian citizens, winning over the coalition attempt of Factio Republicana and his own party. Attempts of In Marea are not unfortunate. It's called politics. Divergence of opinions in Selucia is always welcome and, if my party finds something that would hurt the Selucian people, will try to stop it at all costs. And this is what has been done. Even Factio Republicana recognizes in their own bill that this will create first-class and second-class citizens. Therefore, the Consul will make everything in her hands to stop this nonsense. Prunicio Daudo Senator |
| Date | 20:10:23, October 29, 2018 CET | From | Factio Unitatis Patriae | To | Debating the Lex Tiburtia de Classibus (RP Law) |
| Message | Senators, I also welcome divergence of opinions but the problem with our current system is that there can be no firm resolution or direction on matters such as this. For instance, we have a situation developing here where the Consul Populi will instruct the government to not implement this legislation while the Caesar will be pushing for the cabinet to implement it. So we are at deadlock. This is why I have been spurred on to attempt once again to propose a new system which will see a single head of government in place who chairs and instructs the executive: http://classic.particracy.net/viewbill.php?billid=585440 Quintus Viridius Fabianus Senator; Party Leader |
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Voting
| Vote | Seats | |||
| yes | Total Seats: 386 | |||
| no |
Total Seats: 364 | |||
| abstain | Total Seats: 0 |
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