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Bill: Social Ownership
Details
Submitted by[?]: Leviathan Party
Status[?]: defeated
Votes: This is an ordinary bill. It requires more yes votes than no votes. This bill will not pass any sooner than the deadline.
Voting deadline: December 2332
Description[?]:
| This bill will create in Malivia the institution of social ownership and a planned ex post economy. Social ownership is the ownership of industries by the citizens of a nation, rather than the state or through exclusive private property. Equal ownership in all social enterprises is granted upon the age of majority or the recognition of citizenship. The dividends of this ownership are all services rendered by the state, while the authority over that property is excercised through the creation of local, wilayah and national planning boards. Planning boards are elected by the citizens of a municipality, a wilayah and the nation as a whole, and are each responsible for a certain segment of industry. Local planning boards are responsible for businesses that operate only in a single municipality; wilayah planning boards are responsible for businesses that operate in only one wilayah; national planning boards are responsible for businesses that operate in all five wilayahs. Planning boards are responsible for two things: hiring the firms to manage socially owned assets, and the directing of investment towards future production. Replacing a traditional market in goods, where firms were free to produce whatever was most profitable, we have a user based demand system. In each local municipality, there are retailers who are currently responsible or stocking their shelves for their customers. We propose making these retailers the foundation of a planned economy; their livelihood already depends upon the accuracy of their projections of consumer demand, so by having these firms aggregate what is demanded and what is needed in a community provides a direct, need based system of planning production. These aggregated demand assessments are presented to planning boards, who review them to see where investment is needed, and pass the orders that can be filled with existing industrial capacity onto the firms managing the socially owned assets. These firms are then free to produce goods in any way they see fit. This process is identical to how a capitalist economy runs corporations: corporate management teams answer to a board elected by shareholders, and keep their jobs as long as they meet the goals the board sets for them. Under social ownership, the system is the same: in this case, the voters are the shareholders, the board is the elected planning board, and private firms are those managers. The specific changes to our law are: 1) Institute social ownership to replace current state ownership and mandated private ownership. 2) Create and elect planning boards at the local, wilayah and national level. 3) Mandate that socially owned businesses meet production demands passed from local retailers to the planning boards. |
Proposals
Article 1
Proposal[?] to change Government policy on industry and subsidies to industrial operations.
Old value:: The government acts as an investor of last resort, by nationalizing failing industries that provide vital goods or services.
Current: The government does not intervene in the market nor provide any form of subsidies/relief to industries.
Proposed: The state owns the commanding heights of the economy and all major industries, but private ownership is allowed in the minor industries.
Debate
These messages have been posted to debate on this bill:
| Date | 17:24:28, December 16, 2006 CET | From | Malivia Democratic Party | To | Debating the Social Ownership |
| Message | The people, clearly through polls and the recent election results, have said this is not what they want. While the LP prefers a modified communism economy, such preferences are rare on this world and for good reason, it cripples initiative, and stunts economic growth. The MDP hopes that the LP will learn to accept the peoples will on this matter and give it up. |
| Date | 01:27:15, December 17, 2006 CET | From | Leviathan Party | To | Debating the Social Ownership |
| Message | Social ownership looks nothing like communism, and we sincrely wonder what understanding of either term the MDP is using to come to such a conclusion. Unless, of course, it is the knee jerk free market radical notion that anything less than the total obliteration of all regulation is socialism. Social ownership preserves all the market imperatives for innovation and efficiency, as private firms will compete to manage socially owned assets, and will be held accountable to planning boards for their management. If a capitalist argues that the system of corporations works then they should have no objection to a socially owned economy: it is, after all, nothing more than the application of that same model to a publically owned economy, where the people are shareholders and elected officials their board. So what, exactly, will not work? Or is this more blind faith in market mechanisms that have created the worst poverty in human history, the greatest inequality, and millions of deaths a year due to starvation? We offer proposals to move forward, the MDP offers sycophancy to pollsters. |
| Date | 01:45:32, December 17, 2006 CET | From | Malivia Democratic Party | To | Debating the Social Ownership |
| Message | What does not work, in the MDPs opinion, is the insistence that it is the best interest of Malivia to turn over Malivias industry over to 'planning boards'. That seems reminiscent of (OOC here) the Soviet Unions 5 year plans, and we all know how those turned out. The LevP will have to provide examples that social ownership promotes innovation and efficiency, because that is not how it works in the real world. Market economies have a much better standard of living for its people than do social ownership, and standard of living means alot to the voters. The MDP has always supported free markets subject to regulation, and that, despite the absurd LevPs claim...does not result in millions of deaths per year due to starvation. The Malivian government has enough to do than to participate and force Malivian businesses into their own pet planning boards. |
| Date | 02:08:32, December 17, 2006 CET | From | Leviathan Party | To | Debating the Social Ownership |
| Message | There are no examples of social ownership, this is a uniquely Malivian institution. It is, however, a response to the failures of both capitalist and command economy structures. If the MDP would pay more careful attention to our proposal, they would note there is little in common between our proposal for planning boards and the five year plans of command economies. We are proposing having the most direct and accurate measure of actual demand, the projections of local retailers, be the basis for production and investment. Under a privately owned system, those decisions are made on the basis of what is most profitable, not what people need. To a capitalist, demand is need backed by money; if you have no money, your needs are not measured. All of the same pressures that force private firms to innovate exist within a socially owned economy. Competition, bonuses for executives of successul companies, scarcity and so on. The MDP is appealing to truisms, not actual criticisms of the system. This is, of course, because there are no good arguments against this system. There are, however, a bounty of arguments against the unregulated free market radicalism of the MDP and MWP. The well renowned (ooc: and RL, but such is the curse o using statistics) organization Bread for the World estimates that 11 million children under the age of five die each year due to malnutrition: http://www.bread.org/learn/hunger-basics/hunger-facts-international.html These are the fruits of the privately owned market economy. A further eight million, according to UNICEF, die of childhood diarrehea and pnemonia, both of which can be prevented through cheap and easy to produce medications. The fact that cheap and easy to produce medicines CANNOT be afforded by those families tells you a lot about the system the MDP is attempting to foist onto Malivia. The MDP complains about turning our economy to democratically elected officials, but has no problem turning the economy over to the highest bidder. They want to put into the hands of the super rich what is created by the hands of the Malivian citizen. Who will be able to afford our national industries when they go on the auction block? Not the workers at those businesses, no, it will be the top one percent of Malivia, along with their foreign hedge fund conspiritors, waiting to take a piece of our pie. We are proposing returning the economy to the people, for it is the people who work at these businesses, and those businesses ought to work for the people. Under a socially owned economy, they will, as businesses will be directly accountable to elected officials. Under a privately owned economy, who are businesses accountable to? Only their stockholders, and given that 95% of all stocks are held by less than 5% of the population, it should be a surprise to no one when those businesses sacrifice people's lives for profits. |
| Date | 02:42:47, December 17, 2006 CET | From | Malivia Democratic Party | To | Debating the Social Ownership |
| Message | Counterarguments: LevP: The well renowned (ooc: and RL, but such is the curse o using statistics) organization Bread for the World estimates that 11 million children under the age of five die each year due to malnutrition: http://www.bread.org/learn/hunger-basics/hunger-facts-international.html MDP: OOC: The common themes to these nations with high starvation is their political structure which in turn negatively affects their economies whether free market or social ownership. Note that developed free market countries typically do not have a starvation problem, or developed social ownership problem. To attribute starvation to free market is dishonest, and quite frankly, embarrassing. IC.. LevP: There are no examples of social ownership, this is a uniquely Malivian institution. MDP: Unfortunately for the LevP, the institutions been changed. Thus the uniquely Malivian institution is free market, which has enjoyed its own institution longer in Malivia. LevP: . If the MDP would pay more careful attention to our proposal, they would note there is little in common between our proposal for planning boards and the five year plans of command economies. MDP: If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it is a duck. Granted, the capitalist economy is not perfect. No system is perfect. Yet the MDPs opinion is the capitalist..with regulation and minor hybrid socialism..is the best system available. LevP: We are proposing having the most direct and accurate measure of actual demand MDP: What is wrong with having the consumer determine supply and demand? Thats always worked thus far. The LevPs plan sounds like much more government intervention than needs be, and the concern is the government..excuse me..'social ownership' will soon determine what should be in supply and demand. LevP: The MDP is appealing to truisms, not actual criticisms of the system. This is, of course, because there are no good arguments against this system. There are, however, a bounty of arguments against the unregulated free market radicalism of the MDP and MWP. MDP: Thus far, the only criticism that the LevP has offered against free market, is the LevP accuses it of being responsible of starvation. That in itself gives reason to the MDP to disregard LevPs other criticisms, since if the LevP is going to be dishonest about tying freemarkets with starvation, what else is the LevP dishonest about? LevP: The MDP complains about turning our economy to democratically elected officials, but has no problem turning the economy over to the highest bidder. MDP: The MDP notes that the LevP complains about the same democratically elected officials leaving the economy to the citizens. And turning the economy over to the highest bidder is just another example of the LevP exaggerating the result. LevP: Who will be able to afford our national industries when they go on the auction block? Not the workers at those businesses, no, it will be the top one percent of Malivia, along with their foreign hedge fund conspiritors, waiting to take a piece of our pie. MDP: Actually, yes..the workers will be able to afford, because when these companies go public..well, they already have..sales of stock are sold. Many workers are now public holders of these stock certificates. What is the objection thus far? Workers owning shares of Malivian companies. The LevPs dream come true of socially owned economy. LevP: We are proposing returning the economy to the people, for it is the people who work at these businesses, and those businesses ought to work for the people MDP: The economy was returned to the people. Without government planning boards, or other bizarre forms of 'social ownership'. And businesses do work for the people. They provide jobs, goods and services, and also tax revenue..last we checked..9%. LevP: Under a privately owned economy, who are businesses accountable to? Only their stockholders MDP: Stockholders, government regulations, justice department, and the public if they fail to provide goods and services. Such a term is otherwise known as bankruptcy. LevP: it should be a surprise to no one when those businesses sacrifice people's lives for profits. MDP: What an exaggeration. Please stop with these absurdities and be more honest and realistic. |
| Date | 03:12:59, December 17, 2006 CET | From | Leviathan Party | To | Debating the Social Ownership |
| Message | We note the MDP has not shown that their free market radicalism is better for Malivia, only that they are incapable of giving serious consideration to our proposal. The only quacks here are from the MDP's economists, who cherry pick data in order to support that which is counterfactual. It is not our job to educate the MDP; they repeat questions to which there are already answers, so we will refer them to the transcripts of our statements rather than use the Jawa's time to repeat ourselves. And we recommend the MDP keep up with Malivian news regarding claims that national industries have been sold off. http://www.takeforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=127009&mforum=particracy#127009 ooc: "Note that developed free market countries typically do not have a starvation problem, or developed social ownership problem. " In the US, 38 million people go hungry every year. That's better than 10% of the population. Read the site. If you want to debate stuff ooc, start a thread in the forums. |
| Date | 03:27:09, December 17, 2006 CET | From | Malivia Democratic Party | To | Debating the Social Ownership |
| Message | OOC: You're not seriously suggesting the MDP read a news source that was written by the same person who represents the LevP as an unbiased opinion? IC: LevP: We note the MDP has not shown that their free market radicalism is better for Malivia, only that they are incapable of giving serious consideration to our proposal. MDP: We note that the LevP has not addressed any of our counterarguments, only launching into calling us quacks and being incapable of addressing the issues raised. LevP: The only quacks here are from the MDP's economists, who cherry pick data in order to support that which is counterfactual. MDP: Prove it OOC: LevP: In the US, 38 million people go hungry every year. That's better than 10% of the population. Read the site. If you want to debate stuff ooc, start a thread in the forums. MDP: Going hungry does not translate into starvation. To compare people going hungry in the US..people go hungry in every country...to compare that to people who die of starvation because there is no food to go around, because its been stolen by the political structure in place....is quite frankly...you ought to be ashamed of yourself. |
| Date | 00:33:06, December 21, 2006 CET | From | Leviathan Party | To | Debating the Social Ownership |
| Message | It is time for the Jawatankuasa to support traditional Malivia values of compassion, community and solidarity by voting for this bill. Our people are depending on our swift action to prevent the chaos and poverty of a private market economy. |
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Voting
| Vote | Seats | ||
| yes |
Total Seats: 70 | ||
| no | Total Seats: 80 | ||
| abstain | Total Seats: 50 |
| Random fact: Large scale RP planning (such as wars, regional/continental conflicts, economic collapse, etc.) should be planned (as best as it can be) and should have consent of a majority of players involved. |
| Random quote: "A conservative is a man who sits and thinks, mostly sits." - Woodrow Wilson |