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Bill: Discussion on Union
Details
Submitted by[?]: First Party Of Hobrazia
Status[?]: passed
Votes: This bill is a resolution. It requires more yes votes than no votes. This bill will not pass any sooner than the deadline.
Voting deadline: August 2371
Description[?]:
| As Foreign minister and head of state/government, we must now reveal that we were approached by our neighbours in Darnussia to form a union of nation. We have thus begun negotiations. Currently Darnussia would become part of Hobrazia, with Hobrazia being lead partner, with head of state of both being the emperor elect, with Darnussia retaining internal political activity, with Hobrazia taking control of Defence and Foreign Affairs. Please discuss here anything related to this topic. This is basics of treaty so far, just getting outline before full write up http://80.237.164.51/particracy/main/viewtreaty.php?treatyid=557 |
Proposals
Debate
These messages have been posted to debate on this bill:
| Date | 04:39:47, March 05, 2007 CET | From | National Imperial Hobrazian Front | To | Debating the Discussion on Union |
| Message | We would support such a political union. Some provisions that we would be especially concerned with are a customs and currency union. Also, would it be wise to promote Hobaism and the Hobrazian Orthodox Church within Darnussia? |
| Date | 04:41:41, March 05, 2007 CET | From | National Imperial Hobrazian Front | To | Debating the Discussion on Union |
| Message | Should we change our name in response to such a union? We should also get a treaty ratified ASAP once we have a better idea on how such a union would operate. |
| Date | 04:46:51, March 05, 2007 CET | From |  Liberal Party | To | Debating the Discussion on Union |
| Message | I don't understand what this would involve. Is it just a roll play thing or a change in game dynamics? I will oppose the later. Indifferent to the former. |
| Date | 09:02:01, March 05, 2007 CET | From | We Say So! Party | To | Debating the Discussion on Union |
| Message | OOC: RP only, we can't physically effect the game dynamic. IC: We support such a Union and we welcome rejoining with our Hobaist brothers. |
| Date | 14:25:29, March 05, 2007 CET | From | First Party Of Hobrazia | To | Debating the Discussion on Union |
| Message | Ecellent, well after the next election, we would welocme whatever the outcome just the post of foreign affairs if the cabinet is to change, to continue the working relationship that we have now got with the Darnussian government on this issue. From what we have determined so far: Defence-would be entirely left to Hobrazia Foreign affairs-a deal is under negotiation All other internal affairs-Left to respective assemblies Head of State-Hobrazian HoS is Darnussian HoS Religion-Same religion(However choice is that of Darnussian Governemnt) We have not had discussion on the same currency, we have also had little discussion on border regulations They also wish to say we should start to encourage migration to Darnussia to increase Hobrazian population in the nation. |
| Date | 15:41:16, March 05, 2007 CET | From | National Imperial Hobrazian Front | To | Debating the Discussion on Union |
| Message | re: HoS discussion- We think it would be best, since we have an elected HoS, to have the Darnussian HoS an Imperial Viceroy or something similar. Generally, the Darnussian HoS should act on behalf of the Emperor Elect. If we had a hereditary HoS, then they could be one in the same. But we don't. |
| Date | 17:37:33, March 05, 2007 CET | From | National Imperial Hobrazian Front | To | Debating the Discussion on Union |
| Message | In fact, it may be wise to follow IPP's lead: http://80.237.164.51/particracy/main/viewbill.php?billid=104960 |
| Date | 17:42:55, March 05, 2007 CET | From | National Imperial Hobrazian Front | To | Debating the Discussion on Union |
| Message | Sorry to keep flooding with posts, but I keep coming up with ideas. Some various points: "Religion-Same religion(However choice is that of Darnussian Governemnt" We don't have a state religion at the moment (though Hobaism and the Hobrazian Orthodox Church act de facto in this manner). It looks as if Darnussia will adopt these two faiths as state religions. "We have not had discussion on the same currency." An alternative to sharing the same currency would be to peg Darnussian money to the Hobrazian Crown at some interval, but currency is a messy business. If Darnussia retains authority over its economics, then it may be wise to have seperate currencies. Any ideas on this? |
| Date | 18:50:39, March 05, 2007 CET | From | Alliance for Freedom | To | Debating the Discussion on Union |
| Message | OK we agree. |
| Date | 21:13:37, March 05, 2007 CET | From | Popular Revolutionary Front | To | Debating the Discussion on Union |
| Message | Your all going to burn and die a painful death in the pit of fire. When my party returns we will crush this fasicst attempt by the Hobrazians to imperilize Darnussia. |
| Date | 21:15:08, March 05, 2007 CET | From | Popular Revolutionary Front | To | Debating the Discussion on Union |
| Message | Your "Hobaism" religion is a pagan attempt to manipulate the Catholics in Darnussia, the Jews failed before to eliminate Hobaists but we our Christians and we will put on a Crusade like never before. |
| Date | 22:58:26, March 05, 2007 CET | From | Imperial Power Party | To | Debating the Discussion on Union |
| Message | There will also be allowed the Hobrazian Orthodox Church (which has a wikisite and then they are christian) so take it easy. Furthermore, when will the treaty be ready for ratification? |
| Date | 00:11:12, March 06, 2007 CET | From | Liberal Party | To | Debating the Discussion on Union |
| Message | After a great deal of thought, we will not support this. |
| Date | 00:37:14, March 06, 2007 CET | From | Popular Revolutionary Front | To | Debating the Discussion on Union |
| Message | "There will also be allowed the Hobrazian Orthodox Church (which has a wikisite and then they are christian) so take it easy." You think my party will follow a heretic Church? We follow the Papacy of Terra, not your false house of God. We ask other parties to oppose this bill on the grounds that the Imperial Power Party disciminates against ethnic Darnussians who make up 54% of the population, while they favour Hobaists and Hobrazians. The Imperial Party clearly has its own agenda. |
| Date | 02:05:47, March 06, 2007 CET | From | Ma'avak | To | Debating the Discussion on Union |
| Message | "The Fifth Jewish Homeland wishes to register its sadness at the imperialist moves being taken by the Hobrazian government. You may call this a Union but it is nothing more than a colonalisation of land that you have no right to claim. Hobrazians make a negligable proportion of the Darnussian population and furthermore this would impose mandatory membership of one religion that only 7% of the population belong to and other that was not even registered on the great culture census of 2351. We feel for regional security and to protect the Jewish people of Darnussia we must involve ourselves in this and call for the immediate end to such plans." -- Rosh HaMemshala Yíšay Yéhôšaphát Yišsérles "Woah sorry I just made it accross. Well Yíšay has basically said it all but I just have one question, what the gosh darn is a wikisite? The IPP are chatting about it here like it gives justification to imposing a foreign religion of the Darnussian people but I challenge anyone to actually say what it means. Sure the Hobrazian Orthodox Church might have one but if noone knows what it means that sure as hell don't mean much. Anyway I've got to be getting back in time for the coronation ceremony, Glory to the Lord!" -- Jaroslav Arik Yišsérles, Minister of Justice |
| Date | 04:24:01, March 06, 2007 CET | From | National Imperial Hobrazian Front | To | Debating the Discussion on Union |
| Message | Wow. Darnussia once again asks for our assistance, we once again kindly oblige, and we once again our scorned for our care over our neighbors. We have been asked by a the ruling party of Darnussia to become a Union, which greatly benefits both nations. There are no "imperialist" intentions- Darnussia has spearheaded it all. |
| Date | 11:44:16, March 06, 2007 CET | From | Imperial Power Party | To | Debating the Discussion on Union |
| Message | After what is seen in the The Fifth Jewish Homeland with fascist legislation and areal conflict we can surely say that we are proud of this union and the brotherhood created with our hobrazian neighbors. We shall never let the jewish rebels in Darnussia take power and join union with the fascist jewish regime in the Jewish Homeland. Therefore this is for the benefit of Darnussia and also for the benefit of Hobrazia. And the people in Darnussia who have experienced so much sadness due to deltarian occupation are now free. A freedom that the jewish community of The Fifth Jewish Homeland are trying to steal away again in the form of jewish rebels in Darnussia. You shall be stopped and the Darnussian/Hobrazian Union shall continue. Alan be Praised. Keith be Praised. |
| Date | 14:15:44, March 06, 2007 CET | From | We Say So! Party | To | Debating the Discussion on Union |
| Message | "After a great deal of thought, we will not support this." - Any particular reason for this? We feel we must echo the words of our OSP colleagues. The Darnussian Government has come before us and asked that the two Countries be merged in so far as foreign and defence policies creating a stronger unified whole than could be possible seperately. We can see no reasons against this Union as it provides both parties with advantages with little or no disadvantages. |
| Date | 14:22:41, March 06, 2007 CET | From | Ma'avak | To | Debating the Discussion on Union |
| Message | "You are fooling noone with your hollow words and claims of democratic process. The nation is to be renamed the Imperial Hobrazian Protectorate of Independent Darnussia, does this not bring back memories of the Deltarian Protectorate? Are you really so blinded by your dreams of expansionism that you cannot see that this is nothing more than colonalisation? The Imperial Power Party may be the largest in the Darnussian Assembly but it is worth asking how they got there. This was done through elimination of political opponents via armed measures and the persecution against non-Hobaists, who constitute the vast majority of the population. It is also worth asking why you feel the need to make membership of Hobaism or the Hobrazian Orthodox Church mandatory for Darnussian citizens even though they together consitutute a maximum of 8% of the population? The IPP call us fascists but it is they who are persecuting the people they are supposed to represent and limiting the democratic process in the nation of Darnusssia. And through all this they are yet to explain what the wikisite the value so highly actually is! We once again ask the Hobrazian Republic to end these claims and reject the idea of a Hobrazian Empire or we will be forced to take other measures. Be warned, the arm of the Lord is poised and ready to strike, do not let yourselves suffer this fate." -- Rosh HaMemshala Yíšay Yéhôšaphát Yišsérles |
| Date | 18:22:49, March 06, 2007 CET | From | First Party Of Hobrazia | To | Debating the Discussion on Union |
| Message | I must point out that we have not imposed our religious beliefs. All religious affairs will be left to the Darnussian government. It is their choice what religion they have. |
| Date | 18:23:04, March 06, 2007 CET | From | First Party Of Hobrazia | To | Debating the Discussion on Union |
| Message | If there is nothing else, treaty is ready. |
| Date | 18:28:18, March 06, 2007 CET | From | Ma'avak | To | Debating the Discussion on Union |
| Message | "That is simply a formality. The fact still remains that with the passage of this sinful union membership of Hobaism or the Hobrazian Orthodox Church will be mandatory for Darnussians. Do you attempt to deny that these are Hobrazian religion which represent a maximum of 8% of the Darnussian population? Do you attempt to deny that the Imperial Power Party founded at the exact date that the Hobrazian People's Party disbanded? Do you attempt to deny that this was due to the latter being instructed to infiltrate Darnussia and impose these foreign religions? The facts are clear, you have politically invaded Darnussia and are now annexing it into your land in order to orchestrate religious genocide. We can not and shall not stand for this." -- Rosh HaMemshala Yíšay Yéhôšaphát Yišsérles |
| Date | 18:31:17, March 06, 2007 CET | From | First Party Of Hobrazia | To | Debating the Discussion on Union |
| Message | In fact the HPP departed Hobrazia alone, with no orders. They in fact had a falling out with us the First Party. |
| Date | 18:38:29, March 06, 2007 CET | From | Ma'avak | To | Debating the Discussion on Union |
| Message | "You fail to convince us Mr. Unnamed First Party of Hobrazia delegate. The HPP existed in Hobrazia for a long time, consistently displaying an agressive attitude, do you expect us to believe that they departed just beause your party, one that could not even stand up for itself enough to remain in its home nation, disagreed with them? I am afraid this is far too implausible and we maintain that the HPP have always been behind the IPP with explicit orders from the Imperial Chamber to set the groundwork for the annexing of Darnussia into the Hobrazian Empire." -- Rosh HaMemshala Yíšay Yéhôšaphát Yišsérles |
| Date | 18:39:51, March 06, 2007 CET | From | Hobrazian Peoples Party | To | Debating the Discussion on Union |
| Message | Hey, we have not departed. We just refuse to participate in any elections during to the legalisation of the FPoH. We do not believe they were declared legal and therefore will not unsaid accept the fact that they are treated as such. |
| Date | 18:57:06, March 06, 2007 CET | From | We Say So! Party | To | Debating the Discussion on Union |
| Message | Considering the Jewish peoples in Fifth Jewish Homeland of Beiteynu have forced their women to be limited in the tasks they are able to perform, considering all people are to be forced into joining the one and only state religion of Beiteynu, considering that same Country still allows the backwards practice of slavery to exist within their own Country, who are you to attempt to influence, or even complain about, the rights and jurisdiction of a democratically elected government and its choices? |
| Date | 19:11:45, March 06, 2007 CET | From | Ma'avak | To | Debating the Discussion on Union |
| Message | "Once again we will address the comments of another anonymous Hobrazian delegate. However whilst you hide behind the smokescreen of anonymity we shall show ourselves to you, confident that the light of G-D will protect and guide us; "Considering the Jewish peoples in Fifth Jewish Homeland of Beiteynu have forced their women to be limited in the tasks they are able to perform." If you pay attention to our legislative process you would know that that was a temporary measure which we are in the process of repealing. "considering all people are to be forced into joining the one and only state religion of Beiteynu" Is this not what is happening in Darnussia as well? The only difference is that whereas our state religion represents that of 70% of the population, theirs is that of 8%. "considering that same Country still allows the backwards practice of slavery to exist within their own Country" You once again show your ignorance of our nations history. We were all enslaved by the Pnték when the ran into our nation and killed our people, when they raped our women and boiled our children. The current law is in place, again as a temporary measure, to ensure that Pnték that once again propose the eradication of our people and our state can be sufficiently dealt with. We would also like to note that we do not allow the slave trade whereas the your lovechild the IPP have continuously allowed such trade to continue. Why then do you consider us worse than them? You lambast us for enslaving criminals yet where were you when the Pnték enslaved us just for following our religion? "who are you to attempt to influence, or even complain about, the rights and jurisdiction of a democratically elected government and its choices?" Who are we to influence? Who are YOU to influence! It is your party and your nation that has fostered and promoted the foreign religion of Hobaism in Darnussia. You are no better than the Pnték and should be dealt with as such." -- Rosh HaMemshala Yíšay Yéhôšaphát Yišsérles |
| Date | 19:40:30, March 06, 2007 CET | From | Imperial Power Party | To | Debating the Discussion on Union |
| Message | The Darnussian government is also legitimate and democratically elected. So please stop yourself. And the hobaist religion existed way before any parliamentarism or democratic rights were enacted in Hobrazia and Darnussia. |
| Date | 19:50:20, March 06, 2007 CET | From | Ma'avak | To | Debating the Discussion on Union |
| Message | "With a weary heart we once again try and explain the issue to the Imperial Power Party. It appears that you are most concerned with throwing anonymous remarks at us without actually understanding the topic in debate. Perhaps it is that the delegates of the party are lacking in intelligence or perhaps it is just that you are hard of hearing, we do not know but we shall attempt to address you anyway. Of course the Hobaist faith existed in Hobrazia before any of us were around, that is not under dispute and it has every right to its status as state religion in the Imperial Republic. Additionally it may be true that it existed in Darnussia for that long however as I am sure you know this is still under debate in the historical world due to the lack of evidence found, I would specifically like to direct you to the recently published "Hobaism: One Voice in One Nation or The False Nature of Expansionist Claims" paper by Samuel Münster. Yet this is not the issue at hand. What is is that Hobaism constitutes a maximum of 7% of the Darnussian population and Hobrazian Orthodox Catholicism was not even registered on the most recent census (however in the interests of fairness it is possible that at the very most 1% of the population follow it). Therefore we at this stage ask only one question; in what way can it be justified to impose the faith of 8% of the population of a nation on all 100%?" -- Rosh HaMemshala Yíšay Yéhôšaphát Yišsérles |
| Date | 22:18:32, March 06, 2007 CET | From | Popular Revolutionary Front | To | Debating the Discussion on Union |
| Message | "We have returned from the darkness for revenge and o it will be a sweet revenge. The IPP has failed to understand Darnussia History and they have failed to hold a concept that Darnussians and Hobrazians are two very different people. In light of this, we have returned to politics in Darnussia and if you think this union will last, you are all wrong. This union will fail right after the next political elections." - Robert Muammer |
| Date | 04:48:06, March 07, 2007 CET | From | National Imperial Hobrazian Front | To | Debating the Discussion on Union |
| Message | Who keeps letting these foreign delegates disrupt the democratic process in our hallowed Imperial Chamber? Guards! |
| Date | 08:49:12, March 07, 2007 CET | From | Ma'avak | To | Debating the Discussion on Union |
| Message | Typical Hob-lazy-an behaviour, can't even answer the questions you have been asked... |
| Date | 10:47:38, March 07, 2007 CET | From | Darnussian Liberal Democrat Party | To | Debating the Discussion on Union |
| Message | LONG LIVE A FREE DARNUSSIA. DOWN WITH THE IPP! |
| Date | 18:18:35, March 07, 2007 CET | From | We Say So! Party | To | Debating the Discussion on Union |
| Message | The faiths have been introduced to Darnussia through the act of law within Darnussia with no relation to the Imperial Republic. It is up to them which laws they introduce and which faiths are accepted or not. But just because a religion has a majority, or even a minority, should all peoples be forced into accepting a single faith? It is not for us to decide that fate for another Country, nor is it yours. Is not Beiteynu forcing a single religion on their people? Even though that religion is a majority, is it right that they force the minority to conform? Before you start harrasing another Country, perhaps you should consider your own position. -- Dr Acheville. Majester, We Say So! Party |
| Date | 19:02:04, March 07, 2007 CET | From | Imperial Power Party | To | Debating the Discussion on Union |
| Message | Furthermore hobaism is enlightening the people not harrasing them. |
| Date | 22:46:59, March 07, 2007 CET | From | Darnussian Liberal Democrat Party | To | Debating the Discussion on Union |
| Message | hm... 8% of the population telling the other 92% that their religions are banned. Oh yeah, real democracy there |
| Date | 23:16:03, March 07, 2007 CET | From | Imperial Power Party | To | Debating the Discussion on Union |
| Message | Not banned, just not practiceable in the area of Darnussia. |
| Date | 23:16:50, March 07, 2007 CET | From | Imperial Power Party | To | Debating the Discussion on Union |
| Message | Not banned, just not practiceable in the area of Darnussia. |
| Date | 08:59:04, March 08, 2007 CET | From | Darnussian Liberal Democrat Party | To | Debating the Discussion on Union |
| Message | so in other words, banned. (kinda hard to have a religion if you can't practice it) |
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Voting
| Vote | Seats | |||||
| yes |
Total Seats: 284 | |||||
| no |
Total Seats: 116 | |||||
| abstain | Total Seats: 0 |
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