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Bill: Repeal of Identity Cards Act
Details
Submitted by[?]: Liberal Imperialist Party
Status[?]: passed
Votes: This is an ordinary bill. It requires more yes votes than no votes. This bill will not pass any sooner than the deadline.
Voting deadline: September 2087
Description[?]:
| Identity cards in today's Rutanian society are not needed. Identity can be proved in other ways - for example using driving licences and passports, or utility bills. In addition to the violation of the civil liberties of the citizens of Rutania, indentity cards provide organised crime syndicates with all the information they need to steal someone's identity and most of this information cannot be changed in the same way as credit card PIN numbers (retina scans and finger prints, for example). For these reasons the Liberal Imperialist Party proposes their nation-wide repeal. |
Proposals
Article 1
Proposal[?] to change Government-issued identity card policy.
Old value:: All citizens are issued with identity cards but are not required to carry them.
Current: All citizens are issued with identity cards but are not required to carry them.
Proposed: Citizens are not issued with identity cards.
Debate
These messages have been posted to debate on this bill:
| Date | 17:36:17, July 24, 2005 CET | From | Grand Republican Party | To | Debating the Repeal of Identity Cards Act |
| Message | The Grand Republican Party supports this legislation;identity cards are controversial, and their effect is well-debated but not conclusively proven; as such, the Grand Republican Party stands by the Liberal Imperalist Party in calling for their repeal. For |
| Date | 18:19:56, July 24, 2005 CET | From |  RSDP - Democratic Front | To | Debating the Repeal of Identity Cards Act |
| Message | I am against this repeal. I don't understand the fuss about identity cards, they've been an accepted part of life for decades in my country and they are necessary to combat crimes such as terrorism, fraud, and smuggling, and they can have various other applications that can help people. In my own country, software is being developed to allow us to use our electronic identity cards as an extra security on computers, for tax-on-web systems, and for other formal communication with the authorities or official forms. |
| Date | 18:20:26, July 24, 2005 CET | From | RSDP - Democratic Front | To | Debating the Repeal of Identity Cards Act |
| Message | Oh, and most of the information CAN be changed. ;-) |
| Date | 18:50:31, July 24, 2005 CET | From | Liberal Imperialist Party | To | Debating the Repeal of Identity Cards Act |
| Message | Believe it or not, people cannot change their fingerprints, or their name (well they can, but they generally dont want to) or their date of birth, or their retina - and all of this is provided to crime syndicates on one nice little card. They will cut petty fraud, but they will greatly aid organised crime and in a way that cannot be easily "repaired" in the way that petty credit card fraud can by simply getting a new card. You asset that they are used to prevent smuggling and terrorism, but how? This is never explained. In reality, terrorists will either be homegrown and have no prior criminal records (like the recent tube bombs in my country) and in that case ID cards would have had no affect, or they will be people coming in on planes again without criminal records (how do ID cards stop this?) or hijacking planes (again, how do ID cards help?). There is no REASON for ID cards which stands up to more than about 5 seconds' thought, and so we should scrap them and remove the expense and alleviate the civil rights problems surrounding them. The way to fight terrorism is not to restrict and monitor people to no end - it is to stand firm in our beliefs and values and not allow ourselves to destroy our own freedom in panic. |
| Date | 18:56:39, July 24, 2005 CET | From | RSDP - Democratic Front | To | Debating the Repeal of Identity Cards Act |
| Message | ID cards do help, believe me, would they still be in place today in many countries around the world if they didn't help? It's just a manner of having them for a while and the population will not even want to abolish them, that's the way it has been in all nations that have ID cards. |
| Date | 18:58:09, July 24, 2005 CET | From | RSDP - Democratic Front | To | Debating the Repeal of Identity Cards Act |
| Message | I forgot to add that ID cards make it easier to identify yourself, so you don't have to come to the police station to check your identity if you're a witness to a case, you don't have to got get a special government-issued card with a photograph if you want to travel somewhere with an airplane, etc... |
| Date | 19:00:09, July 24, 2005 CET | From | Liberal Imperialist Party | To | Debating the Repeal of Identity Cards Act |
| Message | This is ludicrous. You arent bothering to actually attack my arguments you're just saying that you like them and therefore they're good. People will "get used to" dictatorship if they live under it long enough - it happened in the Roman Empire after the Republic was slowly abolished. Does that make it right? Does the fact that most nations in the world are dictatorships and "surely if it was bad they wouldnt still be dictatorships" make Dictatorship right? No. There is no justification to ID cards - the mere fact that people are willing to live with them after a decade or two is no argument in their favour. |
| Date | 19:01:57, July 24, 2005 CET | From | Liberal Imperialist Party | To | Debating the Repeal of Identity Cards Act |
| Message | "I forgot to add that ID cards make it easier to identify yourself, so you don't have to come to the police station to check your identity if you're a witness to a case, you don't have to got get a special government-issued card with a photograph if you want to travel somewhere with an airplane, etc..." You do. You have to get a Government issued ID card with a photograph. Since you can identify yourself with a passport there is no reason to have an ID card which carries more information which can be stolen by organised crime syndicates. They dont prevent crime, all they do is allow the government o keep track of its citizens, and in a Liberal Democracy - this is not a good thing. |
| Date | 19:02:20, July 24, 2005 CET | From | RSDP - Democratic Front | To | Debating the Repeal of Identity Cards Act |
| Message | You can't compare ID cards with dictatorships... I also thought of another good application of ID cards, ID cards could contain a code that policement or doctors could type into a computer after an accident to see what you're allergic for, etc... in order to give you an appropriate treatment. |
| Date | 19:05:59, July 24, 2005 CET | From | Liberal Imperialist Party | To | Debating the Repeal of Identity Cards Act |
| Message | Im not comparing ID cards with dictatorships, I'm demonstrating how your arguments are meaningless. On the other hand, ID cards are part of apparatus of the encroaching police state - something which we should try to avoid in Rutania. Or you could just use allergy bracelets? That's just as effective and much less intrusive. You should also bear in mine that currently citizens dont have to have their ID cards on them at all times in Rutania so I doubt that in most circumstances they would even have their ID cards on them. |
| Date | 19:06:32, July 24, 2005 CET | From | RSDP - Democratic Front | To | Debating the Repeal of Identity Cards Act |
| Message | Anyways, I suggest a compromise: we leave it as it is. The citizens can that way choose for themselves whether they want to carry an ID card or not, and they always have one at their home so they don't have to go get a special ID if they want to get on an airplane. |
| Date | 19:12:34, July 24, 2005 CET | From | Liberal Imperialist Party | To | Debating the Repeal of Identity Cards Act |
| Message | Alternatively, we could just abolish them (saving lots of money), reduce the massive database the Rutanian government has built up on people, and if people want to travel by air then they can CHOOSE to (not be forced to, CHOOSE to) get a passport for that purpose. It is much more efficient, much cheaper and much less pervasive. Can we agree to that? |
| Date | 19:34:48, July 24, 2005 CET | From | RSDP - Democratic Front | To | Debating the Repeal of Identity Cards Act |
| Message | That is unacceptable, we would be wasting our citizens' time if they have to go get an ID card when they need. |
| Date | 19:36:44, July 24, 2005 CET | From | Liberal Imperialist Party | To | Debating the Repeal of Identity Cards Act |
| Message | They have to go and get one anyway. All we're doing by abolishing them and using passports instead is making it an option rather than something forced. |
| Date | 19:48:12, July 24, 2005 CET | From | Liberal Imperialist Party | To | Debating the Repeal of Identity Cards Act |
| Message | Especially so as ID cards are so much more expensive and not everyone wants a passport (I know a lot of people who dont have a passport). |
| Date | 21:08:31, July 24, 2005 CET | From | RSDP - Democratic Front | To | Debating the Repeal of Identity Cards Act |
| Message | I know virtually no one who hasn't got a passport, it's mandatory here. |
| Date | 22:26:29, July 24, 2005 CET | From | Liberal Imperialist Party | To | Debating the Repeal of Identity Cards Act |
| Message | Generally when something is mandatory everyone has it, as that is wha mandatory means. THe whole point of this bill is to stop them from being mandatory, so that the government cant force people to put themselves in a position where the government can keep tabs on them. |
| Date | 10:09:40, July 25, 2005 CET | From | RSDP - Democratic Front | To | Debating the Repeal of Identity Cards Act |
| Message | I don't know about other countries, but ID cards aren't used to keep tabs on the people here. ID cards are used to identify yourself so that the authorities are absolutely sure it's you who opens a bank account on your name, so that they are absolutely sure you want to change your adress, etc... |
| Date | 14:10:19, July 25, 2005 CET | From | Liberal Imperialist Party | To | Debating the Repeal of Identity Cards Act |
| Message | "ID cards are used to identify yourself so that the authorities" Exactly. They are used so that the authorities can keep track of everything you do because they can see when and where you use your ID card and so can basically see most things you do in your life. ID cards arent needed, are the earmark of the totalitarian state and they actually aid fraud, whilst not having any affect on terrorism or any other crime. |
| Date | 14:44:39, July 25, 2005 CET | From | New Party | To | Debating the Repeal of Identity Cards Act |
| Message | We think the legislation should remain the way it is now. |
| Date | 14:54:21, July 25, 2005 CET | From | Liberal Imperialist Party | To | Debating the Repeal of Identity Cards Act |
| Message | Why? |
| Date | 18:27:25, July 25, 2005 CET | From | RSDP - Democratic Front | To | Debating the Repeal of Identity Cards Act |
| Message | "Exactly. They are used so that the authorities can keep track of everything you do because they can see when and where you use your ID card and so can basically see most things you do in your life. ID cards arent needed, are the earmark of the totalitarian state and they actually aid fraud, whilst not having any affect on terrorism or any other crime." They are used to so that no one else can do something in your name. The authorities would only be able to keep track of where you live (which is necessary to send you tax forms, information, etc.), where you travel to (which is needed to fight terrorism), and that's virtually it. It's a simple card for crying out loud! It's not as if they're wiring your phone and install cameras in every room of your house. |
| Date | 19:54:49, July 25, 2005 CET | From | Liberal Imperialist Party | To | Debating the Repeal of Identity Cards Act |
| Message | "They are used to so that no one else can do something in your name." Dont be silly. All you have to do is steal a card, replace the picture (which is routinely done in passport fraud) and then you can impersonate someone with impunity because everyone trusts the ID cards. Far from helping to stop identity fraud, ID cards aid identity fraud. "The authorities would only be able to keep track of where you live (which is necessary to send you tax forms, information, etc.)," They can keep track of whenever you use your card - ie whenever you pay a bill, whenever you open a bank account etc etc. "where you travel to (which is needed to fight terrorism)," And this can be done via passports. Why do you need to force everyone to have an ID card? |
| Date | 21:07:25, July 25, 2005 CET | From | RSDP - Democratic Front | To | Debating the Repeal of Identity Cards Act |
| Message | Using an identity card for paying a bill is not necessary... "And this can be done via passports. Why do you need to force everyone to have an ID card?" An ID card is a passport. "Dont be silly. All you have to do is steal a card, replace the picture (which is routinely done in passport fraud) and then you can impersonate someone with impunity because everyone trusts the ID cards. Far from helping to stop identity fraud, ID cards aid identity fraud." With modern electronic ID cards that is impossible, with older types or visums, it is noticeable. |
| Date | 13:24:59, July 26, 2005 CET | From | Liberal Imperialist Party | To | Debating the Repeal of Identity Cards Act |
| Message | "Using an identity card for paying a bill is not necessary..." Checks and credit cards require the user to prove that they are the same person as the owner of the card. If ID Cards are not used for this then they wont cut fraud at all, so why bother with them? "An ID card is a passport." No it isnt. An ID Card is something that you are forced to have and therefore have to use when you're applying for benefits etc. A passport is a voluntary document only required for when you're flying. "With modern electronic ID cards that is impossible" No it isnt. All it requires is a magnetic strip reader, and crime syndicates which can get hold of assault rifles etc will have no trouble with these. I believe it was harvard business school that said "Electronic data storage and biometrics can be compromised by many individuals, most companies and all major governments." |
| Date | 10:29:54, July 27, 2005 CET | From | RSDP - Democratic Front | To | Debating the Repeal of Identity Cards Act |
| Message | "No it isnt. An ID Card is something that you are forced to have and therefore have to use when you're applying for benefits etc. A passport is a voluntary document only required for when you're flying." You're probably right on this point, I was probably confusing two terms there because in my dialect a passport is a synonym for an identity card. "Checks and credit cards require the user to prove that they are the same person as the owner of the card. If ID Cards are not used for this then they wont cut fraud at all, so why bother with them?" I wouldn't know about checks (as they haven't been in use for ages now in my country), but I was talking about paying cash or with the so-called "PROTON cards". "No it isnt. All it requires is a magnetic strip reader, and crime syndicates which can get hold of assault rifles etc will have no trouble with these. I believe it was harvard business school that said "Electronic data storage and biometrics can be compromised by many individuals, most companies and all major governments."" With decent security this is impossible, besides we're not necessarily talking about electronic ID cards here. |
| Date | 11:11:29, July 27, 2005 CET | From | RSDP - Democratic Front | To | Debating the Repeal of Identity Cards Act |
| Message | I'd like to add the following opinion poll to this debate: http://82.238.75.178:8085/particracy/main/viewnews.php?newsid=3822 It appears the opinions on this are very divided, so I suggest we go with a compromise acceptable to most of the population, namely leaving it as it is. |
| Date | 18:02:08, July 27, 2005 CET | From | Liberal Imperialist Party | To | Debating the Repeal of Identity Cards Act |
| Message | What are you on about? 38.85% Citizens are not issued with identity cards - nearly half of the population and more than 1/3 support exactly my proposal. I have a clear democratic majority. |
| Date | 11:33:12, July 28, 2005 CET | From | RSDP - Democratic Front | To | Debating the Repeal of Identity Cards Act |
| Message | In my book a democratic majority is 50%+1 |
| Date | 15:13:12, July 28, 2005 CET | From | Liberal Imperialist Party | To | Debating the Repeal of Identity Cards Act |
| Message | More people support my proposal than support any of the other proposals, so mine has a democratic mandate. |
| Date | 16:38:37, July 28, 2005 CET | From | RSDP - Democratic Front | To | Debating the Repeal of Identity Cards Act |
| Message | I disagree, a proposal with a democratic mandate would be a proposal that is acceptable to most of the population, which in this case is keeping it the way it is. |
| Date | 17:15:12, July 28, 2005 CET | From | Liberal Imperialist Party | To | Debating the Repeal of Identity Cards Act |
| Message | No it isnt. Keeping it how it is got 27.89% of the vote. Making ID cards more stringent (BOTH options) got only 33% of the vote combined. Abolishing ID Cards got 38%. Therefore abolishing ID Cards is what MOST people want, and so that is what we should do. In no way does that poll data say that people support the status quo. |
| Date | 19:24:09, July 28, 2005 CET | From | Conservative Party | To | Debating the Repeal of Identity Cards Act |
| Message | Hold the phone, those in favor of keeping ID cards take up 62% of the vote. A clear mandate for ID cards. |
| Date | 19:38:23, July 28, 2005 CET | From | Rutanian Workers Party | To | Debating the Repeal of Identity Cards Act |
| Message | We vote in favour. The money used in printing and mantaining ID cards and putting them to use all over our country could be put to better use, making the lives of our citizens better rather than predicting for terrorist attacks. The way to stop crime is to make sure people agree that crime is morally wrong, and that there is no reason for crimes like petty theft, for example. |
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Voting
| Vote | Seats | |||||
| yes |
Total Seats: 419 | |||||
| no |
Total Seats: 153 | |||||
| abstain |
Total Seats: 27 |
| Random fact: Players have a responsibility to make a reasonable effort to be accurate when communicating the rules to other players. Any player who manipulatively misleads another player about the rules will be subject to sanction. |
| Random quote: "If we cannot, by reason, by influence, by example, by strenuous effort, and by personal sacrifice, mend the bad places of civilization, we certainly cannot do it by force." - Auberon Herbert |