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Bill: Likatonia Free Trade Agricultural Policy Act
Details
Submitted by[?]: Kapitalist-Arbeitsfamilien Partei
Status[?]: defeated
Votes: This is an ordinary bill. It requires more yes votes than no votes. This bill will not pass any sooner than the deadline.
Voting deadline: November 2489
Description[?]:
| AMENDMENT: This bill denies subsidies to otherwise INEFFICIENT domestic farmers b/c agricultural products are actually of CHEAPER & better QUALITY in the 3rd World nations in Terra. We must embrace FREE TRADE!!! In addition, this bill is amended to state that since Likatonian farmers LEAD Terra in Bio-Technology and GM foods, our farmers can get to EXPORT our biotechnology to the more EFFICIENT farmers in the 3rd World nations while they export their raw crops to our markets at lower prices and better quality. |
Proposals
Article 1
Proposal[?] to change Government agricultural and farming subsidies policy.
Old value:: All agricultural operations are state-owned and operated.
Current: The government subsidises the operations of low-income farming families.
Proposed: The government denies subsidy assistance to farmers.
Article 2
Proposal[?] to change The government's policy concerning farm size.
Old value:: Farms that grow too large are broken up and the land redistributed.
Current: Farm size regulations are determined by local governments.
Proposed: Small farms are encouraged to merge together into larger ones.
Article 3
Proposal[?] to change Commercial fishing regulation.
Old value:: Commercial fishing is completely banned
Current: Local governments can establish fishing quotas
Proposed: There are no limits on the amount of fish that may be caught.
Article 4
Proposal[?] to change The government's policy concerning genetically modified (GM) crops.
Old value:: Production and selling of GM crops is banned. Research is allowed.
Current: All activities related to production, selling or researching of GM crops are allowed.
Proposed: All activities related to production, selling or researching of GM crops are allowed.
Article 5
Proposal[?] to change Government policy concerning the use of pesticides.
Old value:: Chemical pesticides, herbicides and fungicides are banned.
Current: Local governments may choose to regulate pesticides certification programs.
Proposed: Farmers are required to list chemicals used on their crops.
Debate
These messages have been posted to debate on this bill:
| Date | 18:40:15, November 19, 2007 CET | From | Democratic Workers' Party and CTUL List | To | Debating the Likatonia Free Trade Agricultural Policy Act |
| Message | Products from "third world" nations in Terra are cheaper because the farm-workers are enslaved, either literally or economically. We cannot support such practices, nor see our own farmland go to waste and risk starvation. |
| Date | 03:41:48, November 20, 2007 CET | From | Söhne der Freiheit | To | Debating the Likatonia Free Trade Agricultural Policy Act |
| Message | This will have our support. |
| Date | 06:27:22, November 20, 2007 CET | From | Kapitalist-Arbeitsfamilien Partei | To | Debating the Likatonia Free Trade Agricultural Policy Act |
| Message | DWP, farmers in the 3rd World are NOT in enslaved and, in fact, they goods are NOT cheaper but more expensive. Let me explain: I said that those farmers goods have the POTENTIAL to be cheaper and of better QUALITY b/c by them being closer to the Equator and thereby receiving more direct sunlight, the soil is much more CONDUCIVE to better agriculture and they, in fact, can produce a SURPLUS of crops such as potatoes, corn, wheat, etc. As a result, IF they were to market their goods in the Northern industrial nations in a FREE MARKET, they would monopolize the competition b/c our domestic farmers would not be able to adequately COMPETE!!! Unfortunately, however, since the Northern Industrial nations like us, the Holy Luthori Empire, Commonwealth of Rutania, etc know this, they SUBSIDIZE our domestic farmers with CORPORATE WELFARE. As a result, 3rd world nations cannot afford to subsidize their own farmers, so crops are perceived as 3x as more expensive than our crops and they cannot sell in our supermarkets. As a result, they go HUNGRY while our poor Likatonian Citizens are trapped with the unfortnate expense of buying LOW-quality crops at exorbitant prices. We are at a crossroads: if simply cutoff subsidies (corporate welfare) to our domestic farmers, 3rd world farmers (collectively) will have a monopoly and thrive to arise to 1st World status, but in the process, our OWN domestic farmers will go hungry. Therefore, this bill serves as a COMPROMISE: Since Likatonians (literally) LEAD the world in Biotechnology, and 3rd World Farmers have a "competitive advantage" with selling raw agricultural goods, then that means EVERYONE will benefit if we negotiate a comprehensive Free Trade Agreement with the 3rd World agreeing to EXPORT our farmers' biotechnology to them as a "service" and they, in turn, use the biotechnology to even FURTHER enhance their production of raw agricultural goods that will be of HIGH-quality and LOW-price. And to top it off, some nations might not "accept" biotechnology reasons for personal motives, and therefore this enables our farmers to OUT-compete with them with all of those exporting contracts. All in all, this is a WIN/WIN!!! |
| Date | 06:40:05, November 20, 2007 CET | From | Commonwealth Workers Army | To | Debating the Likatonia Free Trade Agricultural Policy Act |
| Message | We find the CWFP version of Terran geography confusing. Who are these 'third world' nations that are 'closer to the equator'? We feel we have to point out... third world nations are not necessarily equatorial. They cannot necessarily afford fertilisers and pesticides the way richer nations can. And they can't transport their goods for free. The CWFP paints a false picture. |
| Date | 14:11:19, November 20, 2007 CET | From | AM Radical Libertarian Party | To | Debating the Likatonia Free Trade Agricultural Policy Act |
| Message | Our only point of disagreement is on article 1 - exactly how will small farms be 'encouraged' to merge? The barrel of a gun can be very encouraging, but this is not the way we wish to see our country go. We would prefer to see the government stay out of the issue of farm size completely. On balance, however we will support this and attempt to modify article 1 later. |
| Date | 17:13:33, November 20, 2007 CET | From | Commonwealth Workers Army | To | Debating the Likatonia Free Trade Agricultural Policy Act |
| Message | The AM RLP honestly believes that unlimited fishing is a good thing? That Likatonian farmers should be denied any possibility of subsidy? |
| Date | 17:22:51, November 20, 2007 CET | From | AM Radical Libertarian Party | To | Debating the Likatonia Free Trade Agricultural Policy Act |
| Message | Subsidies only encourage ineffecient business to survive. Unlimited fishing is better than banning it completely; we want our smoked salmon back. |
| Date | 22:47:16, November 20, 2007 CET | From | Commonwealth Workers Army | To | Debating the Likatonia Free Trade Agricultural Policy Act |
| Message | Subsidies cover for the fact that certain people have made it impossible for the central government to propose a conmcerted agricultural policy. So... now all five prefectures are growing beets, and no one is growing corn, because it is worth nothing on the normal market. So - we've bankrupted our maize economy. We've bankrupted our grain stockpiles. Now, all that is left to bankrupt all the farmers, too? That's the problem with the myth of the free market. It works just fine if you are the guy who can afford to buy out all the competition as it goes broke. For everyone else, it's a fast track to poverty. And... how is unlimited fishing better than banning it? Unlimited fishing equals extinction - that means no more salmon. Ever. |
| Date | 00:04:56, November 21, 2007 CET | From | Kapitalist-Arbeitsfamilien Partei | To | Debating the Likatonia Free Trade Agricultural Policy Act |
| Message | (1) "So... now all five prefectures are growing beets, and no one is growing corn, because it is worth nothing on the normal market. So - we've bankrupted our maize economy. We've bankrupted our grain stockpiles." --Drang Drang, what this bill means is only HALF of the picture that you painted. What this bill says is that if Likatonian Farmers have a COMPARATIVE ADVANTAGE in the production of beets & biotechnology and farmers in the Commonwealth of Rutania has a COMPARATIVE ADVANTAGE in growing corn and grain, then that means the following: (a) Likatonia should have an EXCLUSIVE monopoly on the production of beets and biotechnology; (b) Rutania should have an EXCLUSIVE monopoly on the production of corn and grain; (c) In the end, BOTH nations benefit from the increased GDP and output while this also leads to PEACE and nuclear disarmament (*de facto*). (2) "Unlimited fishing equals extinction - that means no more salmon. Ever."--Drang (a) This is a NON-sensical argument. How can unlimited fishing lead to "extinction" when fish lay EGGS that reproduce. Even if, for sake of argument, the fish "vanish' due to OVER-catching, what do you think the Billion LIK fishing industry is going to do in response??? Are they just going to allow people to eat ALL of the fish and then lose all of those BILLIONS of LIK in profit??? (b) Of course NOT!!! When they catch fish, they will set aside the eggs and insert them BACK into the ocean so that the cycle will replenish itself. Besides, for over 10 years, fishing has been BANNED so that means that the rivers and waters are OVER-populated with fish. |
| Date | 00:16:22, November 21, 2007 CET | From |  Likaton Coalition of the Willing | To | Debating the Likatonia Free Trade Agricultural Policy Act |
| Message | "How can unlimited fishing lead to "extinction" when fish lay EGGS that reproduce" Immerssence Inc is checking it's records, but we are pretty certain that we have never heard anything so stupid in all our days. And we've been at dinner engagements when the All Father has had a few bevies. |
| Date | 00:20:11, November 21, 2007 CET | From | Kapitalist-Arbeitsfamilien Partei | To | Debating the Likatonia Free Trade Agricultural Policy Act |
| Message | P.S.: According to the CURRENT law(s) of Likatonia, our Government has a mandatory RIGHT to impose RECIPROCAL Tariffs on nations that pose tariffs on us. The CWFP strongly supports this current law. cf. http://80.237.164.51/particracy/main/newproposal.php?billid=155807 |
| Date | 00:23:56, November 21, 2007 CET | From | Kapitalist-Arbeitsfamilien Partei | To | Debating the Likatonia Free Trade Agricultural Policy Act |
| Message | Dear Immerence, Inc.: Here's an idea: in a political debate, you do NOT say your opponent's argument is "stupid" but rather SHOW how the logic is flawed. You have yet to done this. However, I SHOWED how Drang's logic was flawed since fisherman will just naturally RE-populate the lakes and rivers with fish eggs to replenish the ecosystem (common sense). |
| Date | 00:47:16, November 21, 2007 CET | From | Likaton Coalition of the Willing | To | Debating the Likatonia Free Trade Agricultural Policy Act |
| Message | In real terms, there is little evidence to suggest that any industry is long sighted; fishermen buy as much as the market will bear, and then overfish to get the maximum economy of scale. Fish are caught before they are mature, and very few fishing crews take any steps to re-populate. We didn't say your entire argument was stupid, however that point certainly is. We believe that your world view is inaccurate, and that you are too immersed in your point of view to take debate or logic on board. There is little or no evidence that gives us cause to believe that debating these points will change either of our positions...but we are open to being proven wrong.... |
| Date | 02:18:21, November 21, 2007 CET | From | Commonwealth Workers Army | To | Debating the Likatonia Free Trade Agricultural Policy Act |
| Message | CWFP: That's not how it works. If Likatonia has an excess of beets, and Rutania has an excess of beets... no one has anything but beets - and that's the problem - we can't regulate what any other nation grows. Indeed, anyone that HAS grown grain, can then withhold part of their produce.... and then what happens? Simple - we end up paying whatever they charge if we want it. You can say they can do the same to us... but, if they have any sense, they regulate THEIR market, just as Likatonia historically has. Even the CWFP can surely see that a country that balances production against internal AND external demands has ALL the advantages over random self-serving economies. |
| Date | 02:21:47, November 21, 2007 CET | From | Commonwealth Workers Army | To | Debating the Likatonia Free Trade Agricultural Policy Act |
| Message | As to the idea that fishing can't lead to extinction... it has. Why would we believe it can't happen, when history has shown that it does? OOC: Which is why the realworld US has such restrictive hunting practises, and why we have lists of endangered species that it is illegal to kill, and why even those species we CAN hunt have specific 'seasons'. |
| Date | 09:24:33, November 21, 2007 CET | From | Kapitalist-Arbeitsfamilien Partei | To | Debating the Likatonia Free Trade Agricultural Policy Act |
| Message | Drang, if Rutania UNFAIRLY regulates their beets as you mention, the CURRENT law of Likatonia states that we must impose RECIPROCAL tariffs and regulations to create a more fair and balanced trade. This bill, however, ONLY applies to nations that do NOT regulate and subsidize their agriculture. Immerence, if fishermen are making BILLIONS of Likath selling fish in the market, they they are going to AUTOMATICALLY take the necessary steps to repopulate the lakes etc. in acting out of pursuit of their own SELF-interest. This is called the "invisible Hand" where individuals act out of regard to their own self-interest (profit motive) to benefit the COMMON interests (reproduction of fish in the lakes). |
| Date | 10:39:06, November 21, 2007 CET | From | Likaton Coalition of the Willing | To | Debating the Likatonia Free Trade Agricultural Policy Act |
| Message | Families, you are missing the point. If all fishing was done by family businesses, handed down from father to son, on trawlers with less than 20 crew, then you may be accurate. But some of the monsters we have roaming the seas today can completely scour an area the size of Meria in under a day, and they are at sea for weeks at a time. Thefuture you are talking about is dominated by large fishing industries, owned by corporations who have diversified, and if fishing becomes unprofitable they will just stop fishing, rather than take costly steps to run an unprofitable fleet, or re-seed our oceans. They'll simply sell beets, or video recorders, or guns instead. |
| Date | 10:44:55, November 21, 2007 CET | From | Likaton Coalition of the Willing | To | Debating the Likatonia Free Trade Agricultural Policy Act |
| Message | We may have been able to support 4 and 5, but never with 3, so it's a no. |
| Date | 13:50:17, November 21, 2007 CET | From | Likaton Coalition of the Willing | To | Debating the Likatonia Free Trade Agricultural Policy Act |
| Message | If the CWFP wish to re-propose Articles 4 and 5 separately, we will support. |
| Date | 19:02:49, November 21, 2007 CET | From | Commonwealth Workers Army | To | Debating the Likatonia Free Trade Agricultural Policy Act |
| Message | OOC: CWFP - in the real world people DO hunt / fish / cut / harvest / mine and drill until resources are completely depleted. That is how it just is. Appealing to some imaginary idea that it won't happen is nonsensical - it DOES happen! IC: Tarriffs do not solve the problem - it doesn't matter if we place a reciprocal 'tarriff' on Rutanian import - if we lack food for a season, we MUST buy. It really is that simple, and it's the main reason why the 'free market' is such a bad idea as a driving force - the free market makes changes based on what people will buy NEXT time - which is no help feeding a population NOW. As for whether or not hunting or fushing automatically implies restocking your resource... well, until we enforced replanting of forests, Likatonia was progressively stripped bare. The ONLY reason we have forests at all now, is the draconian eco-protocols that earlier incarnations of the (fairly militantly green) AM SuDP forced. |
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Voting
| Vote | Seats | ||||
| yes | Total Seats: 194 | ||||
| no |
Total Seats: 361 | ||||
| abstain | Total Seats: 111 |
| Random fact: Hundreds of vessels were lost while traversing the cold waters of the Sea of Lost Souls. It is located between Seleya and Majatra. |
| Random quote: "Mine is the first generation able to contemplate the possibility that we may live our entire lives without going to war or sending our children to war." - Tony Blair |