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Bill: Ratification of the Trade Embargo of Anti-Religion Countries
Details
Submitted by[?]: HaLeumit Tikvah
Status[?]: passed
Votes: This bill proposes for the ratification of a treaty. It will require two-thirds of the legislature to vote in favor[?]. This bill will not pass any sooner than the deadline.
Voting deadline: February 2499
Description[?]:
| "This bill asks for the ratification of the <a href="viewtreaty.php?treatyid=780">Trade Embargo of Anti-Religion Countries</a>. We cannot allow Barmenistan to think its sickening actions do not have consequences. |
Proposals
Article 1
Ratify the Trade Embargo of Anti-Religion Countries.
Debate
These messages have been posted to debate on this bill:
| Date | 23:36:00, December 08, 2007 CET | From | Pharaoh's People's Party | To | Debating the Ratification of the Trade Embargo of Anti-Religion Countries |
| Message | While the PPP is itself a secular party, we support the ratification of this treaty to promote civil liberties worldwide. |
| Date | 23:46:16, December 08, 2007 CET | From |  Computational Intellect Project | To | Debating the Ratification of the Trade Embargo of Anti-Religion Countries |
| Message | When did we ever trade with you anyway? |
| Date | 01:20:09, December 09, 2007 CET | From | HaLeumit Tikvah | To | Debating the Ratification of the Trade Embargo of Anti-Religion Countries |
| Message | OOC: We share a large land border, its reasonable to assume we do a significant amount of trade, and the embargo would harm us both. |
| Date | 09:49:03, December 09, 2007 CET | From | Computational Intellect Project | To | Debating the Ratification of the Trade Embargo of Anti-Religion Countries |
| Message | [OOC] True. And I did realize that, but I don't know if you had to make an out of character comment to point that out. Our comment was part of RPing [IC] Don't you think our businesses would just trade with you by proxy through another country that is more tolerant of our own domestic policies and is not prone to stick their nose in others' business? Things would get more expensive, that's for sure. But this policy seems hardly effective, or wise, placed on a superpower nation directly bordering yours that you have tolerated and traded with for centuries now. Your economy would likely suffer much more than ours ever would. Especially since we happen to be a provider of most of your essentials; including food, water, fuel for your power plants and transportation, your automobiles, your plutonium (which you certainly will no longer be receiving after this daring proposal and the insults against our nation and attempts to interfere with its reasonable policies), and more. May we remind you that most of the military arms in the hands of your troops are our exports. How are you going to battle the anti-semitic Deltarians with no guns? Good luck finding a new provider if you pass this treaty. Even if you do, it is unlikely that nation will be nearly as close to you as us, and the prices of everything in your economy will rocket; you will kill your economy with this, and we can simply ship our exports to others (we already provide internationally). This entire fiasco seems inane and poorly planned on the head of state's part. Barmenistan and the SJHB have had a balance for centuries, and we have helped you out. We have never once attempted to interfere with your policies. It has always been that those in our nation looking for a religious life moved to yours, and those looking to escape religion moved to ours. We may have been the birthplace of Islam, but the past century has proved us a very secular nation. We do not restrict emigration OR immigration; in fact, the only way to escape being placed in a mental institution for being openly religious is to leave the country; we will not interfere. Does the SJHB forget how much Barmenistan has granted aid to it in recent centuries? Does it forget we were the ones to stand up for them, time and time again? We have never attempted anti-semitic policy, and we have never attempted to interfere with your nation's affairs; or at least in the past century. We are simply a nation on your border, that for the past century has had friendly intentions towards the Jewish people, and now you disrespect and condemn our own sovereignty, affairs, and decisions regarding our own nation?!? Go do what you want. You want to make trouble, we can give you trouble. But we must warn you that you probably don't really want trouble from us. We will certainly not change our policies because we believe that what we are doing is right just as much as you believe that what you are doing is right. |
| Date | 14:55:46, December 09, 2007 CET | From | HaLeumit Tikvah | To | Debating the Ratification of the Trade Embargo of Anti-Religion Countries |
| Message | OOC: ok, just checking. IC: "You have banned the Jewish people the option of practising their own faith. You refer to our beliefs as a mental illness. You do not see why we would take issue with your nation? Barmensitan may be more successful economically than the Homeland at present, due to the devastation of wars, revolutions and occupations, but to regard it as a superpower is ridiculous. Pontesi is a far more wealthy nation on our border, one who we have recently normalised relations with. Contrary to your claims, this will aid our economy and international relations, since the closer trade links we have with Pontesi the less likely we are to go to war. We have never been reliant on Barmenistan for arms. The migrants pass has always been a much more suitable trade route, with our alliance with Darnussia allowing the import of arms from most rich Artainian nations. Beiteynu can get any of the exports from Barmenistan from anywhere else. In the short term it will cause inflation and price rises, however our links with the MCTO, Darmussia and our historic free trade links with the Accord means that in the long term effects will not be too serious. We are not the ones making trouble. But Barmenistans Jews will reclaim what is theres, of that you can be assured." -Yakov Eleazar, Finance Minister |
| Date | 19:16:55, December 09, 2007 CET | From | Computational Intellect Project | To | Debating the Ratification of the Trade Embargo of Anti-Religion Countries |
| Message | "You have banned the Jewish people the option of practising their own faith." We are not forcing the religious minority of the Barmenian Jews to live without their religion. They do not have to live in Barmenistan. If you are not aware, we are an asylum state, and we have very open borders. The only border restrictions we have in entering are to confirm identities so that we can keep track of who enters and exits. Passports are issued to nationals on demand, and anyone may permanently reside in our nation. If you don't like our nation, you don't have to live in our nation. You are free to leave any time, and if you are leaving for religious reasons, we will gladly show you the door and perhaps provide a boot for you to kick yourself out with. "You refer to our beliefs as a mental illness." That is our medical opinion, and if you don't like it, then that's your problem. In Barmenistan, anyone is free to hold any opinion he or she likes, and may express that opinion in any means that do not harm innocents or subvert the government. As such, we are free to hold our opinion, and that is what we are going to do. "You do not see why we would take issue with your nation?" So you are going to embargo, and perhaps go to war, with someone just because they hold an opinion contradictory to yours? What are you going to do next? Start sending assassins after the members of the PPP? "but to regard it as a superpower is ridiculous." Well, when any other nation on Terra comes anywhere NEAR having 22.3 million troops, or 879,432 tactical ICBMs and 32,456 thermonuclear ICBMs, or 23.4 million tons of assorted chemical weapons, or 12.6 million tons of biological weapons, or more than one million battlefield equipment assets, or a navy as immense as ours, or a whopping 12,000 fighter aircraft and 7500 bomber aircraft, or 65,000 unmanned aerial fighters, or even SPACE-CAPABLE superfighters and superbombers of which we have thousands of each, or a completed space colony ship with two under construction, please: let us know. We will destroy them instantly simply for being a threat. We have a killer economy and a killer military. Call us psychotic lunatics if you like, but we simply prefer to play it safe; it's better than being sorry. "We have never been reliant on Barmenistan for arms." That's interesting. We are selling large amounts of arms to a few organizations within your nation. Perhaps you are under an internal subversive threat; these arms are being sold to SOMEBODY. I know so because my pockets are certainly lined. "We are not the ones making trouble." We were passing our own policies within our own nation. Our laws, our opinions, and our world views are our own business, and you have no right to mingle with our affairs. But, contrary to that, you have mingled with our affairs. "But Barmenistans Jews will reclaim what is theres, of that you can be assured." Are we suppose to interpret that as a threat of war? Because more Atheist Jews have left your theocracy to our nation than religious Jews leaving ours for yours, so surely the Barmenian Jews will not do anything; the majority of Barmenian Jews were Atheists BEFORE we banned religion. |
| Date | 19:45:42, December 09, 2007 CET | From | Computational Intellect Project | To | Debating the Ratification of the Trade Embargo of Anti-Religion Countries |
| Message | BTW - we are not going to reveal the identities of the customers within your nation buying the large amounts of arms. That is confidential information, to be known only by us and our clients. Now, had we been on friendlier terms than this, we might have released the information on our clients gathered by our intelligence agency (which is very powerful) to you. But, we normally only use our intelligence agency in these cases to investigate our clients before we actually sell arms; merely to judge whether or not they could be a threat to us. In this case, they are not. However, since you've been uncooperative and irrational, we're not going to tell you anything about who we're selling weapons to in your nation. If they attempt to subvert you (we will let you know that they don't particularly like you), that's your problem; we could care less. You can either conduct your own investigation or you can just live with the fear of these unknown organizations and the potential threat they bring. And in any regards, we will still continue selling; regardless of this embargo. We are not going to smuggle anything across your border, but we will still sell to the same clients. Whether we sell by proxy or they smuggle it themselves is their option. For your sake, you should hope these people aren't too unfriendly or demanding of you; we've already sold a great deal of our best arms to them already, so if they aren't friendly, you've got a MAJOR problem. "import of arms from most rich Artainian nations." 1) It's sad that you call yourselves a sovereign state, yet have to import your own arms. 2) We make better weapons than any of the Artanian nations, and this is why you should really be concerned about these organizations we're selling arms to within your nation, that may or may not like you, depending on what we decide to tell you at the time. 3) Artania is not half as rich as Majatra or Seleya, and is not nearly as advanced, socially and technologically, as either as well. |
| Date | 19:48:59, December 09, 2007 CET | From | Computational Intellect Project | To | Debating the Ratification of the Trade Embargo of Anti-Religion Countries |
| Message | Oh, and good luck trading with western Majatra very easily with this embargo. Seeing as that we stand between the rest of western Majatra, with the exception of Pontesi, and that all sea borders extend 500 km, and all air travel jurisdiction (gray area, but according to our law) extends to the grasp of Terra's gravity. You would not be able to pass anything through that 3D zone without it being blown up. |
| Date | 21:10:22, December 09, 2007 CET | From | Am Echad, Pays Libre | To | Debating the Ratification of the Trade Embargo of Anti-Religion Countries |
| Message | For security reasons and the recent threats of athiest terrorism we must be carful on this new bill. If anything happens we need to pul out of the treaty at once and repare any broken ties at once. |
| Date | 21:20:35, December 09, 2007 CET | From | Computational Intellect Project | To | Debating the Ratification of the Trade Embargo of Anti-Religion Countries |
| Message | "athiest terrorism" We can assure you there is no such thing. Terrorism is deeply rooted in fanaticism, which is generally associated with religion or strong political goals. If there is any terrorism in your country, it is likely from Christian, Muslim, or Anarchist terrorists. |
| Date | 21:30:58, December 09, 2007 CET | From | Am Echad, Pays Libre | To | Debating the Ratification of the Trade Embargo of Anti-Religion Countries |
| Message | Not exactly. There are terrorism from the athist side as well. For example in 2294 a David Hotel in Yishelem was bombed because of Athiest faniactics. They were mad because a very religous Confrence was being help there. Also, just recently, Machmoud Bucsh, a Barmenistan national, sent a threat to blow up the Wailing Wall. |
| Date | 21:33:49, December 09, 2007 CET | From | HaLeumit Tikvah | To | Debating the Ratification of the Trade Embargo of Anti-Religion Countries |
| Message | "3) Artania is not half as rich as Majatra or Seleya, and is not nearly as advanced, socially and technologically, as either as well." Artania is far richer than Majatra, and reasonable richer than Seleya. Thats an outright lie. You are not the most advanced intellectuals, are you? "Well, when any other nation on Terra comes anywhere NEAR having 22.3 million troops" No nation does, including yours. It is nice to see how openly you lie, it will make it so much easier to dismiss your other claims. Compared to us, you spend nothing on defence; if that number of troops existed, they would be busy looting your cities so as not to starve to death. We spend 60% of our budget on military, and have relatively high taxes. You spend around 8%, and only tax one percent on the rich in your population. Even with war and occupation, we are still sufficently advanced to deal with the threat of the underfunded Barmenian military. Thank you for the warning of internal threats, though I would imagine you are refering to the Tadraki control commission, which is now disbanding. |
| Date | 22:23:09, December 09, 2007 CET | From | Computational Intellect Project | To | Debating the Ratification of the Trade Embargo of Anti-Religion Countries |
| Message | 1) "Artania is far richer than Majatra, and reasonable richer than Seleya. Thats an outright lie." Oh really? Why is it that the richest nations, listed here, happen to be in Majatra? 2) "You are not the most advanced intellectuals, are you?" Certainly more than you. You still discriminate against homosexuals and practice silly rituals. You are cavemen. 3) And as to your claims about our military: (a) your money is worth less than ours, (b) your GDP is lower, (c) money goes much further in Barmenistan, and (d) the budget only details the funding from income tax, luxury tax, and corporate tax. Those are only the small fractions of governmental income. In case you are not aware, there are things like national lotteries, property taxes, bonds, arms sales (which we sell to just about every nation in the world), paramilitary operations (that is, people pay us to undergo military action for them), tariffs, etc. Our government makes tremendous amounts of money from these things, and the majority of all government funds come from it. In fact, virtually all of the funds in our Justice ministry our funded by renting prison labor to corporations. Thanks mostly to external sales of products in services which are not included in the GDP, our military spending is nearly 6 trillion BAR. Most nations can't even claim that equivalent in their currency as their GDP or less, much less spend that much of defense on it. You, on the other hand, tax your people to death with those three sources of income actually listed in the budget, and all your military funding comes out of 60 percent of that budget. It's no wonder why so many Atheist Jews are immigrating to our nation. 4) "Tadraki control commission" Who the hell are they? And anyway, we have about 16 separate client organizations in your nation purchasing arms from us; not just one. |
| Date | 22:28:38, December 09, 2007 CET | From | Computational Intellect Project | To | Debating the Ratification of the Trade Embargo of Anti-Religion Countries |
| Message | Here is the list of the countries by GDP. Most of them are in Majatra or Seleya, though a FEW are in Artania. http://particracy.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Countries_by_GDP |
| Date | 01:19:32, December 10, 2007 CET | From | HaLeumit Tikvah | To | Debating the Ratification of the Trade Embargo of Anti-Religion Countries |
| Message | OOC: Ok, sorry in advance if im going OOC needlessly again, but its probably easier for me to say this way. From my understanding, economy doesnt work. Its never been implemented in this game, and as such players generally RP which countries are rich or not. Historically, Artania and Northern Seleya have been the first world countries. Majatra varies, but generally most can be considered poor, at least part of the second world, with the exception of Selucian empire, Cildania and (probably) Pontesi as well. So while you can say Barmenistan is a superpower, and i can say its not, really without any empircal evidence neither is true or false. Secondly, while again you can say you do this and that to earn money, any nation (including us) could claim to have huge sources of income other than tax. If you have established these programmes a while ago through bills that is perhaps different, but claiming huge profit, high above tax income, unseen by RL nations save a few small unique countries, from these complicates things. Again, i cant say its true or false, just that it goes outside the usual framework. Thirdly, again I dont know if this was just party rhetoric or not, but going by common RP rules you cannot have an army of 22 million men, and most would consider the huge military arsenal you claim to have a god mod. Its for those reasons i think its probably best if we just leave these issues, since I doubt we will come to any agreement, and they are unlikely to cause a problem during the insurgency RP. |
| Date | 17:24:30, December 10, 2007 CET | From | Computational Intellect Project | To | Debating the Ratification of the Trade Embargo of Anti-Religion Countries |
| Message | [OOC] OK. Maybe Particracy II will have a more functional economic model. |
| Date | 17:36:17, December 10, 2007 CET | From | HaLeumit Tikvah | To | Debating the Ratification of the Trade Embargo of Anti-Religion Countries |
| Message | OOC: Yeah. i think basically particracys code made it difficult to add in economy and war, hence why a second version is being made. |
| Date | 17:46:46, December 10, 2007 CET | From | Computational Intellect Project | To | Debating the Ratification of the Trade Embargo of Anti-Religion Countries |
| Message | [OOC] Do I have to contact a moderator if a party has been inactive for more than three days and I'd like speedy deletion? |
| Date | 18:13:57, December 10, 2007 CET | From | HaLeumit Tikvah | To | Debating the Ratification of the Trade Embargo of Anti-Religion Countries |
| Message | OOC: I think its four days for parties that have never logged in (like this one) and you post the link to the party here: http://www.takeforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5376&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=540&mforum=particracy |
| Date | 18:17:10, December 10, 2007 CET | From | Computational Intellect Project | To | Debating the Ratification of the Trade Embargo of Anti-Religion Countries |
| Message | [OOC] They want seven days or more. |
| Date | 19:48:53, December 10, 2007 CET | From | HaLeumit Tikvah | To | Debating the Ratification of the Trade Embargo of Anti-Religion Countries |
| Message | OOC: In the case of parties that have never logged on, the rule is for four days, not seven |
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Voting
| Vote | Seats | |||||||
| yes |
Total Seats: 319 | |||||||
| no | Total Seats: 0 | |||||||
| abstain | Total Seats: 41 |
| Random fact: By default the head of government is the ultimate authority within a national government. In general terms, heads of government are expected to consult with cabinet colleagues (including those from other parties) before making significant decisions but they remain responsible for government action. |
| Random quote: "We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant." - Karl Popper |