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Bill: Sekowo Census
Details
Submitted by[?]: Normand Pluralist Party
Status[?]: passed
Votes: This bill is a resolution. It requires more yes votes than no votes. This bill will not pass any sooner than the deadline.
Voting deadline: November 2601
Description[?]:
| It has been quite some time since Sekowo has held a proper census. We propose that a new census be undertaken, following the same guidelines as the previous census. [[Previous census results: http://80.237.164.51/particracy/main/viewbill.php?billid=168373 ]] This census shall be conducted by the political parties of Sekowo who will survey their supporters and report the result back to the Folkstamma. As such, this census should be highly representative, accurate (because of the need for internal consistency within parties), and fairly inexpensive, as the political parties of Sekowo will be subsidizing it. OOC: Every party will report the demographics of its constituency which will represent the portion of Sekowo who favoured that party in the previous elections (I will run several surveys to verify this, and others are welcome to, as well). Any party may choose to allow another party to determine their demographics for them, if they wish, or to opt out entirely, in which case their constituency will simply be considered an average of the others. This should be perfectly fair to all involved. IC: We propose the following categories: Ethnicity: -Amerindian/Kli'kut -Asiatic/Gao-Showa -Black -Caucasian -Mixed ...Latino ...Other Mixed -Other Gender: -Female -Male -Other Households: -Family -Shared -Single Native Language: -English -French -Gao-Showan -Greek -Modern Sekowan -Normand -Other (including Davostana and Latin) -Pailesian Marital Status: -Civil Union -Co-habitation ("Concubinage", in the French) or Common Law Marriage -Married -Single Religion: -Atheist -Agnostic -Buddhism -Christianity ...Catholic ...Protestant ...Other -Hinduism -Islam ...Sunni ...Shi'a ...Other Muslim -Jainism -Jewish -Native Beliefs -Other (including Bah' and Hellenic Polytheist) -Satanism -Shinto -Unitarian Universalism Sexuality: -Asexual -Bisexual -Heterosexual -Homosexual -Other |
Proposals
Debate
These messages have been posted to debate on this bill:
| Date | 07:44:10, June 24, 2008 CET | From | 帝国公明党 (Teikoku Kōmeitō) | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | OOC: I really don't think doing this is a good idea, especially seeing what happened in the last result IE FDP reporting having only straight members while they were the largest party. |
| Date | 07:58:28, June 24, 2008 CET | From | Anti-Federalists of Free Sekowo | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | And before that, I understand you made a third of the country bisexual. You're hardly in a place to bargain, methinks. |
| Date | 08:08:48, June 24, 2008 CET | From | 帝国公明党 (Teikoku Kōmeitō) | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | Well that was everyone elses fault for not participating, it was'nt until NPP came along that any real census stuff came into being. |
| Date | 08:17:10, June 24, 2008 CET | From | Anti-Federalists of Free Sekowo | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | So... the rest of the players are responsible for your actions... Pardon me if I sense a disconnect. Because they were silent, you had a right to impose an idea which would have meant the soon extinction of a LOT of people... Right. Gotcha. They should be ashamed of themselves. |
| Date | 08:19:30, June 24, 2008 CET | From | 帝国公明党 (Teikoku Kōmeitō) | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | Not responsible, but no one was providing any input or suggestions. I mean think about it, doing something that many see as extreme is a good way to get them involved. |
| Date | 08:21:09, June 24, 2008 CET | From | Anti-Federalists of Free Sekowo | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | OOC: And that was your honest thought. Well, I suppose if you allow me to choose the next Imam, I'll believe you. I just think you take a lot of liberties which perhaps you should ask permission to first. |
| Date | 08:25:05, June 24, 2008 CET | From | 帝国公明党 (Teikoku Kōmeitō) | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | OOC: Go ahead, I've only ever done anything involving the Muslim section because no one else was. My core constituency is Japanese/Altenratives/Greens and Leftists, so I only ever do stuff with others if no one else is. |
| Date | 08:43:46, June 24, 2008 CET | From | Normand Pluralist Party | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | AFFS, that was 1/3 bisexual, AND 1/3 homosexual. |
| Date | 08:49:27, June 24, 2008 CET | From | 帝国公明党 (Teikoku Kōmeitō) | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | It was 43% heterosexual, 24% homoseual and 32% bisexual and 2% other other, so it was closer to 1/4 then 1/3. |
| Date | 09:26:35, June 24, 2008 CET | From | Anti-Federalists of Free Sekowo | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | Well shoot. At that rate, (assuming that the rate would be stable, you know, that 1/4 would be homosexual... We could kill off Sekowo in a matter of only three centuries! Dude, that's totally plausible!) |
| Date | 09:31:58, June 24, 2008 CET | From | 帝国公明党 (Teikoku Kōmeitō) | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | Just because someone identifies as homosexual does'nt mean they are'nt going to reproduce. I mean I prefer men, but it does'nt mean I'm never gonna have kids, though only to continue the growth and existence of the species, not because I want them. My argument at the time was that Sekowo is made up primarily of three cultures that have historically (IE before Christianity reached them) have been very open and accepting of homosexuality and in many cases they did'nt really differentiate between straight and gay. |
| Date | 15:18:07, June 24, 2008 CET | From | Revolutionary State Socialist Party | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | Perhaps we should wait untill the new parties get some seats and/or understand Sekowo better. |
| Date | 18:53:09, June 24, 2008 CET | From | Conservative Party | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | I agree with IMF. Let them participate in the census. So, postpone the census for one election? After February 2601 election? |
| Date | 19:17:27, June 24, 2008 CET | From | Normand Pluralist Party | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | Oh, we're certainly not planning on holding the Census until the new parties gain some seats. We just thought we'd put it on the table. |
| Date | 20:35:08, June 24, 2008 CET | From | Sekowan Independent Party | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | OOC, I'm assuming? I'm honestly not sure what the census is about. Do I just create a census of the people who support and make up the SIP? Or do I do the in-game polls? They don't seem to specify this information in the polls (I've used a few so far, to see how Sekowo leans and what positions I may want to take)... I can certainly (and will certainly) participate in a census if it's all created by hand. Otherwise, please explain the method to it and I'll still be happy to participate. |
| Date | 21:11:18, June 24, 2008 CET | From | 帝国公明党 (Teikoku Kōmeitō) | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | The last time we used this method we took the lists above and assigned percentages of our party who belonged to each group. |
| Date | 21:15:27, June 24, 2008 CET | From | 帝国公明党 (Teikoku Kōmeitō) | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | Also, a few things. Latino is NOT a mixed ethnicity. Buddhism needs to have the sects previously used added. Modern Sekowan should be rmeoved sinceit would have merged with Pailesian by now into a single language. |
| Date | 01:38:24, June 25, 2008 CET | From | Anti-Federalists of Free Sekowo | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | OOC: DSP, please name one culture which hasn't been destroyed in RL history shortly after allowing homosexuality. It is absolutely destructive to a people. I'm sorry, religion or no, cultures die off when they accept this. Religion is irrelevant. Human survival is a slim chance (which hasn't survived more than 300 years of acceptability so far) when homosexuality is allowed. So unless Sekowans were almost dead when Christianity was allowed, it's hardly believable to think any other thing. It's a pipe-dream. |
| Date | 02:15:45, June 25, 2008 CET | From | Revolutionary State Socialist Party | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | Greek and Roman didn't die off because of it. (both did eventualy end, but for different reasons, Greece being conquerred by Rome, and Rome, there are entire books on it, etc etc, btu it was mainly barbarians, too larget, etc |
| Date | 02:18:44, June 25, 2008 CET | From | Anti-Federalists of Free Sekowo | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | I disagree on both counts. Read the accounts of Thuycidides on the Spartans and the Athenians. Read Plato and Aristotle. Then, to look at the Romans. Homosexuality was part of a decadent culture, bent on gladiatorial combat, and no respect for the sanctity of life. When a culture (not government, but culture) has tended toward atheism, they have been conquered on destroyed. |
| Date | 02:37:40, June 25, 2008 CET | From | Revolutionary State Socialist Party | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | All cultures die eventualy. I could take that example and insert any philosophy into it and it would work :p Frankly, I so wish we'd still be alive for the downfall of Christianity, however, it looks to be a slow and painful process x.x |
| Date | 02:43:35, June 25, 2008 CET | From | Anti-Federalists of Free Sekowo | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | Ok. Explain when Judeo-Christianity has fallen. Explain how Islam has fallen. Explain how Buddhism has fallen. I can point to two examples in the past century where government imposed Atheism upon a culture has resulted in the fall of that regime. Frankly, you asked me to provide the evidence, and I did. If you want to provide counter-evidence, read something of the culture, eh? Doesn't that make sense? If we're going to use history, let's use history. I base my political philosophy on what has worked, and despair when we turn away from it. The philosophy I espouse has worked, until other philosophies have come in, and destroyed literally the people. Do you want me to use history on you? I've got loads more. |
| Date | 03:08:17, June 25, 2008 CET | From | Revolutionary State Socialist Party | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | Do you have no concept of time? These things take time. Current trends show a downturn in Christianity, thats all I was commenting on. I didn't ask you to prove anything. Do you see any questions I asked (this does not count)? Frankly, are just misinterpreting. The fall of communism had nothing to do with religion, it had to do with economics. Don't argue history on me, its one of my major areas of study. (though if you want to wait a few years, I will have the degrees to prove it to you) |
| Date | 03:35:11, June 25, 2008 CET | From | Anti-Federalists of Free Sekowo | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | Ah, but aren't economics only a portion of the problem? Religion provides stability, and tenacity on the part of those who believe. The ideas of the economics deal with what people do. When people don't do (often because they don't care) it has often to do with what happens at home. No success can compensate for failure in the home. Again, religion provides stability. Without this stability, many found no desire to succeed. After all, what does it matter? We're only here for 80 years. You doubt the importance of morale in economics, yes? I assert that it makes a big difference. You explain that, I'll back off. Deal? |
| Date | 03:36:10, June 25, 2008 CET | From | Anti-Federalists of Free Sekowo | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | (Oh, and as far as that goes, you can keep your robes of false priesthood. I'll have mine elsewhere, admittedly, but frankly, I care more about what I know than a fancy piece of paper... And that's why I'm not stopping at a BA.) |
| Date | 04:23:52, June 25, 2008 CET | From | Normand Pluralist Party | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | [[I refuse to take sides in the AFFS/IMF debate, though as someone with a degree in History, I'm certainly qualified to call people out on historiography. I would be interested, however, in getting a few counter-examples from the IMF. I expect that they exist, but without them, the AFFS' claims sound convincing. Part of the problem, of course, is that history is general full of one religion supplanting another. Atheistic societies are fairly new. And homosexuality was generally universally practiced, and universally condemned. Take the Greeks, for examplePlato was fairly outspoken on his condemnation of homosexuality, even while pederasty (the most common form of homosexuality in Greece, being between very young boys and older men) was widespread. Oh, and AFFS, aren't you a history major, as well?]] Latino IS a mixed ethnicity. European + Native American (& Arabic/Semitic). If not, then it's simply European, and not a unique ethnicity. The reason the Buddhist sub-sections are not being included is because during the last Census, only 1 out of 9 parties responded with Buddhist sub-sects. As such, the sub-sect information had to be discarded as statistically insignificant. We will reinstate sub-sects if there is wide-spread support for reincluding them. Does anyone oppose the merger of Modern Sekowan and Paliesian? If not, I'll combine those two. |
| Date | 06:23:43, June 25, 2008 CET | From | Anti-Federalists of Free Sekowo | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | ((Yes and no. Combination MESA and History)) |
| Date | 07:07:50, June 25, 2008 CET | From | Sekowan Independent Party | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | ((This may sound a bit wrong, but I enjoy seeing heated debates and confrontation like this. If we have deep, strong views on politics, then our respective parties are prone to be as rooted as we are. This makes an interesting, dynamic play environment. As much as I love playing the peacemaker, I'm actually going to sit this one out. Call it playing to my selfish side. :P I'm also interested to see who "wins".)) |
| Date | 07:12:58, June 25, 2008 CET | From | 帝国公明党 (Teikoku Kōmeitō) | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | OOC: Japan has accepted homosexuality to various extents (never becoming condemned or illegal) for most of its history, it was'nt until the 19th and early to mid 20th centuries that it became negative, and that was only because Japan wanted to be respected, and they figured if they imitated the west and went further they, as a nation and people would have global respect. Japan has never fallen (IE become part of another entity or split into more then one) and it's culture has survived for over a thousand years with homosexuality present and it's still around today. On a related note while Japan is not a world leader in the increase of LGBT rights, Homosexuality is still not viewed as negative by the majority of people there. |
| Date | 08:53:45, June 25, 2008 CET | From | Normand Pluralist Party | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | [[Seeing as you're not among the history majors among us, DSP, I'm particularly interested to know your sources, and where you've learned what you have about history (though, I'm interested in sources in general, of course). What is the source for your knowledge for the acceptance of homosexuality in Japan?]] |
| Date | 16:25:16, June 25, 2008 CET | From | Revolutionary State Socialist Party | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | Honestly, I can accept that homosexuality had something to do with the fall of them, but you all seem to be talking like its the root cause. That is just so... I hae no words for that x.x. If anything homosexulaity would be a symptom of a larger problem, not the root. |
| Date | 16:27:53, June 25, 2008 CET | From | Revolutionary State Socialist Party | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | Oh, and yes, Japan does have a bit of that going on. But then again, you can do anything in Japan and they don't even bat an eyelash. I think its generaly that they don't care what someone else is doing, they just assume there is a good reason for it. (Yesterday I watched a Japanese gameshow, had an event where people had to walk on their hands through an obsticale course. As training, some of these people were doing it in public everywhere they went. They showed a video of it, and not one other person even payed attention to the people walking on their hands. |
| Date | 17:02:20, June 25, 2008 CET | From | Anti-Federalists of Free Sekowo | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | If I may, I believe that I pointed out that cultural atheism is the root of the problem. Homosexuality is a symptom. The Japanese people right up until WWII were very religious. However, after having their entire culture turned upside down, and returning to that state, we now have a negative population rate in Japan. Now, as far as social services are concerned, what does a negative population (wow, that was close. Almost added an extra 'o') rate do to an economy which provides social services for the elderly. In no way am I suggesting that the elderly shouldn't receive these benefits, but looking economically, it's going to be a struggle, am I right? And I do believe that no matter what else, accepting homosexuality will make it so that there is a lesser population rate, if for no other reason than simply put, people are guilt-tripped into marriage. Now, this I believe is not the case for the majority of the time, but is just a minor example. Again, to recap, I believe that Japan may have accepted it to a point, (if we are to take that interpretation from the 47 ronin, etc.) However, they most certainly retained a strong sense of culture which was based strongly on honor and well, religious duty. Now that this is no longer prevalent, there are good things (missionaries are no longer burned or otherwise killed) but there are also the worrisome problems of the rising generation turning more to the fame of the world than to home, and there's the negative population rate. |
| Date | 17:46:55, June 25, 2008 CET | From | Revolutionary State Socialist Party | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | It seemd to imply that it was the root cause, I read it several times. Anywho, we need less people untill we can devolop enough resources to feed them all. We will be able to see the effects of this in our lifetime. You can already see the startving children in Africa, and then we got global warming comming up. This civilization is going to hit a brick wall soon, and its not a non-religious one yet. I'm almost looking forward to it. |
| Date | 20:41:24, June 25, 2008 CET | From | 帝国公明党 (Teikoku Kōmeitō) | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | NPP; I really could'nt tell you sources since I've studies Japan and Japanese culture since I was like 10, and in that time I've read quite a bit of different things about Japanese history and society. Interestingly enough if you look at Japanese literature from the past you can see it was'nt negative, in fact there was a line in the Tale of Genji (which I read) that goes something along the lines of "The prince was so gracious and beautiful, if only he was a woman." now does that mean that Genji was supposed to be bi or gay, well I suppose that depends on someones interpretation, but it does show that even back in the 10th century men (and women) recognized the beauty and such of the same sex, now compare this to Europe at the same time where depending on where you were you could be hung or burned at the stake for it. |
| Date | 01:54:58, June 26, 2008 CET | From | Anti-Federalists of Free Sekowo | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | IMF: Wow. Reminds me of Ebenezer Scrooge. "Then they should hurry up and die to decrease the surplus population." I'm sorry, but I find that really creepy. |
| Date | 02:39:59, June 26, 2008 CET | From | Revolutionary State Socialist Party | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | Yeah, I know many people find it creepy, thats why I don't go around yapping about most of my opinions. At once time I seriously considered supporting the idea of manditory suicde at age 60, however thats a bit extreame, even for some of my opinions. |
| Date | 06:43:12, June 26, 2008 CET | From | Normand Pluralist Party | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | [[Misinterpretation of historical gender interactions is widespread by people who do not understand cultural contexts. A great many modern readers (particularly those of homosexual or bisexual persuasion) will often read same-gender affection which was normal among family members and friends (such as kissing on the lips) in ages past, and interpret it as homosexual behavior, or even incestual behavior, because they do not understand the context. I've studied Japanese culture some, but it's not my area of expertise, so I can't really speak on it in particular. My brother just took an entire course on Japanese culture, though, so I'll ask him if he learned anything about this. Oh, and IMF, there is currently way more food in the world than required by the world's population, and food production has actually increased steadily per capita over the last 40 years. There is even MORE capability of producing food than that. The problem isn't a lack of food, but rather a lack of effective an equalitarian distribution.]] |
| Date | 06:48:00, June 26, 2008 CET | From | Anti-Federalists of Free Sekowo | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | OOC: If we need more people to leave the picture, IMF, why are you still here? What about the common good? (Ok, that was a bit more caustic than necessary, but my mother talked to me, and I couldn't resist) I also agree with the NPP. For example, there is a custom in many societies which involved/s kissing on the cheek. Are these supposed to be proof of sustainable, acceptable homosexuality? Only with a strange bit of logic. |
| Date | 10:07:47, June 26, 2008 CET | From | Sekowan Independent Party | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | OOC: Back to the topic at hand. :P We can bicker all day about homosexuality and religion and the fall of man...or we can just make the bloody census documents... |
| Date | 10:30:44, June 26, 2008 CET | From | Normand Pluralist Party | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | [[Waiting for you folks to get some seats. = ]] |
| Date | 15:52:19, June 26, 2008 CET | From | Revolutionary State Socialist Party | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | OOc: We should probably remake the bill when the time comes, so no sense in wasting the space now, so lets continue to yap away. Anywho, I believe it is eaiser to reduce consumption of food then change the greedy capitalistic ways of the majority of people. Japan, well, its not just homosexulaity that is different over there, its pretty much everything related to sexuality (and then some). For example, its perfectly normal for people to have affairs with their spouses consent as long as the women is getting paid. And AFFS, the feeling is mutual :D |
| Date | 17:26:17, June 26, 2008 CET | From | Anti-Federalists of Free Sekowo | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | I apologize if I appear to not be practicing what I'm preaching. Is that the case, IMF? ;) (Honestly, I thought I had always come of as respecting the sanctity of life, and not really going the route of the self-destroyer) Frankly, if you believe that there's a problem with food, then the idea of ethanol must be done away with. Frankly, there has already been a problem with 15-20 percent of the corn crop underwater, and the idea of turning it into gasoline is irresponsible, no? I would also like to point out that, sadly, the African continent isn't in a peaceful state. Uganda could be a breadbasket, if the LRA wasn't around. I believe that the earth CAN sustain even greedy capitalism, if we manage (and I admit, we can't at this point) war, promote peace, and started cultivating the rich earth we have been given. (A pipe dream, I know, but people would have said the same about gay marriage in America 40 years ago, right?) |
| Date | 18:39:02, June 26, 2008 CET | From | Revolutionary State Socialist Party | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | I blame the condition of Africa on capitalism and greed, and those are unfortunatly inherint in the human condition. Imperialsm's demise was followed by drawing arbitrary boundires between countries that would inevitably lead to war (though they didn't really think of it that way at the time) Furthermore, its not going to improve very much or at a good rate unless drastic measures are taken. It almost feels like a lost cause, but meh. Anywho I think we should really be working on hyrdogen instead of ethonol anyway. P.S. I see two solutions to africa. A. Upon "control" being taken in the rest of the world, use much of the suplus towards bettering Africa's infastructure, while preferably keeping existing population from starving, but infastructure takes priority one. B. If that is not possible, redirect current aid to keep the current population from starving (its not taking care of all of them anyway) and use it to quickly increase food production, therefore those that are left can support themselves. |
| Date | 04:54:05, June 27, 2008 CET | From | Anti-Federalists of Free Sekowo | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | Frankly, it's sad, but if we expect them to grow, we have to let /them/ grow. We cannot to that for them. The societies will become stronger when they are able to work together, rather than against each other. Frankly, the main issue is to start in the home. When the people decide to have safe families, they will soon have safe communities and nations. |
| Date | 08:50:44, June 27, 2008 CET | From | 帝国公明党 (Teikoku Kōmeitō) | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | Ya know I have to think it might have been a better idea to not just decolonize Africa as fast as was done. I mean don't get me wrong they have the right to self-determination, but I realy have to think that Africa would have been much better off if it had'nt been so quick, aside from the revolutions I mean. |
| Date | 16:16:55, June 27, 2008 CET | From | Revolutionary State Socialist Party | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | Drawing the borders along ethnic lines would have helped. But either way, it only takes a few "bad seeds" to ruin a whole [insert unit here]. Africa needs to be cleaned up, so to speak. |
| Date | 17:13:29, June 27, 2008 CET | From | Anti-Federalists of Free Sekowo | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | No doubt. How, of course, is always the question. I think that starting in some of the stronger nations, and showing how, 'look, we can help you build an economy, build a stronger society' would help. Electricity is nice, but if we can get clean water and farms going, that's a million times better, I think.' (Admitted exaggeration, but still, I stand by it) |
| Date | 20:01:47, June 27, 2008 CET | From | Revolutionary State Socialist Party | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | Getting them self-sufficenet is priority one. Thye shouldn't have to rely on us for help. And of course, hunt down people who resist :) |
| Date | 20:47:46, June 27, 2008 CET | From | 帝国公明党 (Teikoku Kōmeitō) | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | Africa is starting to go in a positive direction, but the problem is no one intervenes enough, I mean lets face it, Mugabe should have been dead years ago, and even now when people are being killed their for not being supporting the authoritarian party Mugabe runs over, no one is doing anything. This is one of the reasons I hate the idea of non-interventionism. |
| Date | 01:52:32, June 28, 2008 CET | From | Anti-Federalists of Free Sekowo | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | Mugabe and Kony. Honestly, the few people that make my hit list. Kony is still #1 in my mind though. Children aren't supposed to be soldiers. |
| Date | 03:02:36, June 28, 2008 CET | From | Normand Pluralist Party | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | [[Perhaps the US should invade Zimbabwe?]] |
| Date | 03:09:05, June 28, 2008 CET | From | 帝国公明党 (Teikoku Kōmeitō) | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | I would support that in full, though I think a UN invasion would be better, since it keeps Mugabe loyalists from using a specific country to get the locals to fight against. Honestly, there should be no nations that are'nt free and democratic anymore, I mean we could have done it early on, but no we had to be all isolationist and Anti-Communist. I say the alter because I think that had we not broken contact with every country that was Socialist or Communist we could have prevented alot of the killing and dictatorships that have existed since 1940. |
| Date | 03:11:04, June 28, 2008 CET | From | Normand Pluralist Party | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | [[I think there should be no nations that aren't free. However, I see no particular virtue in democracy.]] |
| Date | 05:04:02, June 28, 2008 CET | From | Revolutionary State Socialist Party | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | (I agree, I am in favor of dictatorship, as long as the people are generaly left alone. I mean, as long as they work their 8 hours a day and don't cause trouble I don't see why we can't let them have all that needless junk to entertain themeselves with. (of course only what we can pull out of our surplus) |
| Date | 05:20:10, June 28, 2008 CET | From | Sekowan Independent Party | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | Wow, that's unusual. Someone else who believes in dictatorships? I've never really mentioned it, because it raises too many red flags for too many people. So long as you have a benevolent dictator, then usually it turns out to be a very healthy society. It's when you get tyrants that things become problematic. Really, any attempt at government is subject to the "bad seeds" trying to gain control, and they eventually will. The human habits and tendancies are the reason humanity is so flawed, in the end... |
| Date | 05:47:20, June 28, 2008 CET | From | 帝国公明党 (Teikoku Kōmeitō) | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | Tis one of the reasons Communism fails, require something that's incredibly rare, a line of benevolent dictators that are willing to give up power, I mean it's not impossible, I could do it, but then again I tend to lean towards Anarchism. |
| Date | 08:46:41, June 28, 2008 CET | From | Sekowan Independent Party | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | Not so much giving up power, but being completely selfless. Instead of thinking of yourself as a "public servant", think of yourself as a "servant of the people". At a glance, the same thing, but in detail not quite. Socialism, to succeed, would require the same thing as a Benevolent Dictatorship requires. Leadership who truly value the wellbeing and happiness of their people, and a people who do not want to "pull one over" on their dictator. In short, everyone helps everyone out of the goodness of their hearts. And, well, to be honest? Relying on "the people" to be good, moral, and just people? Good luck with all that. |
| Date | 09:35:13, June 28, 2008 CET | From | Anti-Federalists of Free Sekowo | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | Sorry, I just like to trust more people with the power. I get the idea that mankind is basically good, and while the whole dictatorship may look attractive, it just doesn't sit well to me to have any one person in charge of the welfare of an entire nation. I honestly think that there should be a system of judges, with a chief judge presiding, and probably have these judges elected, but elected for life. It makes sense in my mind. |
| Date | 17:22:07, June 28, 2008 CET | From | Revolutionary State Socialist Party | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | Actualy, alot of people are like us SIP. They believe in benevolent dictatorships but don't talk about it for fear of backlash from people who react with violence to everything they don't understand. However, I am wary of giving a human all the power, and that is why I think we should make an AI capable of it. |
| Date | 17:56:31, June 28, 2008 CET | From | Anti-Federalists of Free Sekowo | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | Wow, an interesting idea, I admit, but my problem with that lies in... well, the fact that we still need humans to keep the AI stable. That, and if anything were to make a small bug in the AI, there are disastrous consequences. Also, I really like the ideas of being a '/human/itarian' I just can't think of being ruled by something. Civil service, I think, should be just that. They are the servants of the people, not the other way around. |
| Date | 18:15:03, June 28, 2008 CET | From | Revolutionary State Socialist Party | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | Well, I'm still working on it and all. This is an idea I adpoted within the last year. I mean, as much as I'd love being dictator myself, and think that I could handle it, my knowledge of human history would show otherwise. I'm hopping for some advancements in the field of AI in the next 20 or so years to see what we have to work with. |
| Date | 18:15:39, June 28, 2008 CET | From | Revolutionary State Socialist Party | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | *Also helps that I'm pretty good at programming too. One of the reasons I study programming. |
| Date | 18:36:36, June 28, 2008 CET | From | Anti-Federalists of Free Sekowo | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | Ah. You look to the future, and I look at the past and worry about the future. Got it. It's just a fundamental difference in thinking. |
| Date | 19:13:44, June 28, 2008 CET | From | Revolutionary State Socialist Party | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | Yeah, I mean, my goal is just for hunaity to be the strongest most prosporous entity it can be. I think we need to start acting like we are a member of an alien filled galaxy now before its too late. For all we know, it IS too late. |
| Date | 19:17:32, June 28, 2008 CET | From | Sekowan Independent Party | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | I think AFFS just nailed on the head the major political struggle between different groups for the last...oh... well, forever. There are those who look to the future with bright hopes and dreams. And there are those who look to the past to guide them through a difficult future. And who's to say who's right or wrong, but both are right in their own way...and wrong in their own way. As with almost anything in humanity, they are pieces of the whole (but not capable of the whole on their own). The way to unite humanity under the banner of peace is to simply stop the in-fighting that humans have, over the ages, become so disgustingly good at. ::shrug:: But, as I said before, I don't believe that's possible. AFFS: If you believe humanity is mostly good, take a vacation from work and go get a minimum wage job. Like, bottom of the barrel job. Spend some time listening to people, ask them some questions like "what would you be willing to do to get that promotion" or "what would you do if you could get away with anything". Watch them in their vices they hide from the authorities, knowing they're in the wrong (but not caring). Actually, for the longest time I became _so_ disillusioned that I thought anyone who supported non-conservative things (gay marriage, less restrictions on drugs, etc) was a degenerate who wanted to flood the nation in sin and vice, with people shooting up in the classroom, and meth labs on every corner. I've since come to know several gay people (or bisexuals) and have reversed my views on gay marriage, but drugs still are one of my biggest complaints about the world today. Marijuana, sure, legalize it...but I've seen far too many people die, and countlessly more lives destroyed by cocain, methamphetamine, oxycotin, valium, heroin... I don't know that it will ever change, and I doubt anything could ever change it in me. I looked into a girl's eyes while she overdosed, and all of her too-coked-up-to-care friends were _laughing_ at how funny she looked. I was only a kid, what the hell could I do? It's stayed with me since then, and I'll never support anything more than marijuana being legalized. I am _vehemently_ opposed to it, in fact. And, in a large part, I still believe that the filth and vice of the worst of our race pushes for it's legalization, simply so they can do it whenever and however they way. Little do they know, that's just suicide a little delayed. ...I could keep ranting, but I feel like shutting up now. |
| Date | 19:45:05, June 28, 2008 CET | From | 帝国公明党 (Teikoku Kōmeitō) | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | I think I perhaps have a middle position on the whole is Humanity good or bad thing. I consider Humanity to be fundamentally good, however I consider the vast majority of modern societies to have been tainted and raised in a fundamentally negative (IE materialist, selfish/egoist, I'm right your wrong) way. SIP: Given that I can see how you've come to hold your beliefs on the subject. I think though that there's another example of different thinking. While I have fortunately never been around someone when they OD'd, most of my friends do drugs, in fact one of my best friends was (well I have'nt asked lately, so 50/50 he still is) addicted to Heroin and came close to dieing a few times, my other best friend used to a mix of minor Cannabis with the opiates and Methamphetamines form normal medicine that mixed with his already fragile mental state caused him to nearly commit suicide more then once. Now while obviously while those are bad, since addiction is bad and doing drugs when it's gonna fuck your head up more, I've never told either of them that they should stop, since when it comes down to it one of my core beliefs is that while I may not like something, it's fundamentally wrong for me to enforce my views on them. |
| Date | 19:54:48, June 28, 2008 CET | From | Revolutionary State Socialist Party | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | SIP: I agree, I didn't think the in-fighting would ever stop... Untill I decided we needed aliens to fight instead of humans. ;) |
| Date | 20:49:04, June 28, 2008 CET | From | Anti-Federalists of Free Sekowo | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | SIP: I have done so. I have seen the degenerates of society. I worked with those who suffer the most from this: children. This is where I came to realize how sheltered my life had been (probably, to some extent, still is) but I worked in a place nick-named "Meth Valley" (and with good cause) Here, I came to see the devastating effects on children. We had to make our center a place of refuge. I had to watch a civil dispute, unable (due to law) to do anything to protect either party but call the authorities. (Who, of course, arrived too late to actually even witness anything.) I /have/ seen this. This is a major part of the reason why I would feel safer raising a family in the Middle East than in Europe. However, working with children, I see the light in their eyes, and I know that if they get a fair chance, we have an excellent future. They may not get that chance from their parents, but the government certainly isn't going to do anything right by forcing them into a communal living system. It's really hard to maintain optimism, but it's a lot better, and for me, easier, to do so than the alternative of pessimism and the tolerance of a very real set of evils, a set of rights and wrongs, in society. I need to learn how to make a paragraph, incidentally. |
| Date | 21:27:48, June 28, 2008 CET | From | Revolutionary State Socialist Party | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | On the subject of drugs, I couldn't care less unless it is causing a (easily seen and serious) loss of performance on the job, or something like that. In other words, as long as they arn't being counterproductive in society, go for it, but if they are..., then its time to stop. (And consdering how few drugs would leave someone able to work at 100%...) |
| Date | 21:30:30, June 28, 2008 CET | From | Anti-Federalists of Free Sekowo | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | Yeah. Pretty much. |
| Date | 21:55:00, June 28, 2008 CET | From | Sekowan Independent Party | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | AFFS: I've made it my practice to be pessimistic, that way I'm not blindsided (anymore) by negative events in my life. :P DSP: As AFFS mentioned after you, people who choose to destroy their lives end up taking a lot of lives down with them. It's not fair to others, and honestly on that point (one of very few) I'll say "personal liberty be damned". And I'd love to believe humanity is "naturally good" but, to be honest, the more I learn and the more people I meet, the more I come to the slow and steady conclusion that most of humanity is inherently disgusting, self-serving, and generally vile. There are rare _exceptions_ to this, and they are good people who try to make a difference. It's just tragic that the people who want to make the world a better place are far and away the minority. |
| Date | 21:57:45, June 28, 2008 CET | From | Sekowan Independent Party | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | Er, to clarify on the above, nobody here falls into the "disgusting, self-serving, and vile" category. As I commented here (or maybe elsewhere, I dunno) I think we all are capable of sharing and discussing our various views in a calm, civil manner. As far as I can tell, you guys are more humane humans than some of the world leaders of today... lol |
| Date | 21:57:50, June 28, 2008 CET | From | Anti-Federalists of Free Sekowo | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | As I've said before, I put forth those who I believe are my best case for humanity being good: Children. I'm standing by that. |
| Date | 22:11:37, June 28, 2008 CET | From | 帝国公明党 (Teikoku Kōmeitō) | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | Ya know it's funny, alot of us have stated of one what and become another way that's the polar opposite of one another. I started off thinking humanity was generally bad, but over time I've come to thing it's god, but aspects of current culture and capitalism have caused negatives. Let me give you an example of this. I know this guy who's Muslim (same age as me, 20) he used to hate gays and think they should be killed, but he changed, and now he's the opposite. Of course he sort of would have been hypocritical continuing to think that ways since, well lets leave personal matters personal. ;) And yes, I would say we are generally better in many ways the alot of world leaders. |
| Date | 09:44:16, June 29, 2008 CET | From | Normand Pluralist Party | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | [[I believe that humanity tends towards evil, and that men in their natural states are selfish and generally untrustworthy. However, I believe that there is a powerful potential for good in absolutely every individual. Interestin fact: I have worked in minimum-wage retail, night-shift retail, minimum-wage food industry, with special ed. children for the school district, for the county as a public servant, in Academia, and freelance. I'd say that qualifies me for a wide variety of perspectives.]] |
| Date | 11:10:22, June 29, 2008 CET | From | 帝国公明党 (Teikoku Kōmeitō) | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | OOC: Do you have to get payed to qualify for doing something? Mentioning special ed kids made me remember I spent several months working with them both as part of my Senior Project and because I could. Does it mean I'm a certified educational person, not, not really, but after seeing the way alto of the teachers, and not just the special ed ones acted and went about things, I've come to the conclusion that I could do their jobs better and more efficiently. Now of course I never will since I generally dislike kids half the time. |
| Date | 16:35:41, June 29, 2008 CET | From | Revolutionary State Socialist Party | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | OOC: I consider "good" and "evil" to be purely human inventions. That doesn't mean there arn't things I think shouldn't be done. |
| Date | 06:14:43, June 30, 2008 CET | From | Normand Pluralist Party | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | [[I'm counting only paid jobs I've had. On a more abstract level, I consider "good" and "evil" on utilitarian bases.]] |
| Date | 08:48:56, June 30, 2008 CET | From | Anti-Federalists of Free Sekowo | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | OOC: Right and wrong exist. Frankly, I think they are greater than humanity, and as such, we have the issues in trying to define it. |
| Date | 18:35:53, June 30, 2008 CET | From | Revolutionary State Socialist Party | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | OOC: Well, generaly "evil" actions do fall in my catagory of "needless" so there isn't much conflict (on the small things atleast) |
| Date | 21:21:41, June 30, 2008 CET | From | 帝国公明党 (Teikoku Kōmeitō) | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | OOC: I figure that the majority of things we consider right or wrong are simply artificial constructs, however I do think that certain things are wrong based on an evolutionary and natural standpoint. -Rape, wrong because it violates basic freedom and makes the victim less likely to procreate. -Murder, wrong because it violates basic freedom and cuts the species population. -Capitalism, because it is counter to how we evolved and leads to egoism and selfishness which hurts the species. |
| Date | 03:52:45, July 01, 2008 CET | From | Normand Pluralist Party | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | [[Capitalism counter to how we evolved?! Are you kidding me?!]] |
| Date | 03:53:06, July 01, 2008 CET | From | Normand Pluralist Party | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | [[That's like claiming that eating meat is counter to how we evolved, or that killing is.]] |
| Date | 18:59:39, July 01, 2008 CET | From | 帝国公明党 (Teikoku Kōmeitō) | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | OOC: Capitalism is a relatively new thing, it's really only developed in the last two centuries, at least the kind I'm talking about. I don't consider trading one good for another capitalism though. Plus alot of early civilization were Theocratic proto-communist societies, that is resources were given out based on need and controlled by the government/theocracy. |
| Date | 02:29:52, July 02, 2008 CET | From | Anti-Federalists of Free Sekowo | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | OOC: And we all know how well that worked, considering how many are left. Besides, Communism, leaving everything to the government, is irresponsible and is counter to the evolution of mankind more than your definition of Capitalism is. |
| Date | 03:02:47, July 02, 2008 CET | From | 帝国公明党 (Teikoku Kōmeitō) | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | OOC: I'm not saying that either Theocracy (very bad) or Communism (nice, but flawed) are the way to go, but we did'nt evolve as a totally individualist species, we evolved based on species survival and that means while we have individualist traits that are good, we also developed collectivist traits that help everyone, rather then a single or small group which is negative evolutionarily speaking. On a side note I tend to lean towards anarcho-socialism, so in reality I' don't beleive in the idea that the state should control everything. |
| Date | 03:49:17, July 02, 2008 CET | From | Normand Pluralist Party | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | [[You can't redefine something and then condemn it. It'd be like if I said "Communism is inherently opposed to any good sense, morality, or even human nature." And then I go to say that "I only consider Khmer Rouge-style Communism as Communism." It's rediculous. From the beginning of time, so long as human societies interacted with eachother, capitalism has reigned supreme. Records in theocratic societies show that there was ample trading going on. The Italian city-states of the Middle Ages and Renaissance were fileld with Capitalism. Ancient Rome was, by and large, a highly capitalist state. The ancient Celts had a capitalist society, and even, like many Indo-European peoples of the time, practiced resource polygyny (which is inherently capitalistic in nature). The Vikings were certainly also capitalistic. Pretty much as long as there are records for, there has been capitalism in one sense or the other, and very rarely Communism/Socialism in the modern sense where all goods are gathered together and redistributed. Primitive African socities are also capitalist that way (and practice resource polygyny, etc.) Now, some Native American tribes, such as the Cherokee, appear to have been Communistic or Socialistic to a degreethere was a very strong matriarchal community-based society where everything, including children, seem to have been shared. However, this does not appear to apply to the ancient American empires, such as the Aztecs. An oppressive or powerful regime does not preclude capitalism.]] |
| Date | 05:05:31, July 02, 2008 CET | From | 帝国公明党 (Teikoku Kōmeitō) | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | OOC: Modern capitalism is not that old, true old societies practiced it's predecessor, Mercantilism, but most states were what we would call state capitalist, which is not really considered capitalist in the modern world. I'm not saying it has'nt existed, I mean it's one of only two ways primitive groups can deal with resource scarcity, the other being Socialism. Now that I think of it I should have said proto-socialist since Communism is a new concept, that is revolution in order to establish a communist economic system, create total equality and do away with the state. |
| Date | 08:43:37, July 02, 2008 CET | From | Normand Pluralist Party | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | [[How do you define "modern capitalism"?]] |
| Date | 17:00:35, July 02, 2008 CET | From | Revolutionary State Socialist Party | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | (Fascism is the way to go (as long as it isn't racist or religious, IE, it should be military) |
| Date | 17:05:18, July 02, 2008 CET | From | Anti-Federalists of Free Sekowo | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | OOC: IMF, that's a bold statement. However, I do believe that a theocracy would be safer, IF (Note the emphasis on IF) the leaders believed in a simple code such as "We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may." Frankly, that seems a much better alternative than a military Junta. You know why I like this religious method? It's inherently libertarian. We should have the government involved as little as possible. As Paine said, "Society in every state is a blessing, but government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil." |
| Date | 18:24:08, July 02, 2008 CET | From | 帝国公明党 (Teikoku Kōmeitō) | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | OOC: Modern capitalism being trade between different couuntries created, for the most part by private entities without the forced creation of goods for the state and a relatively unregulated market. |
| Date | 00:38:52, July 03, 2008 CET | From | Revolutionary State Socialist Party | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | OOC: Religion is too stuck in the past. We need good leaders that can take us into the future. The government must be everywhere to ensure that we maximize the human race's chances of survival. |
| Date | 07:08:40, July 03, 2008 CET | From | Normand Pluralist Party | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | [[So, DSP, you define capitalism as something a) only occuring between nations, b) not allowing slavery, c) an unregulated market (US Market is highly regulated, by some standards, so it wouldn't qualify), d) created by private entities, etc. This is a highly limiting and fairly bizarre definiition of capitalism.]] [[M-W's definition, which is in much more use and holds more historical currency: an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market ]] |
| Date | 16:17:00, July 03, 2008 CET | From | Anti-Federalists of Free Sekowo | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | OOC: IMF, that's an interesting philosophy. However, I want to /live/ rather than just /survive/. Hence, I think that we should leave people to make their own decisions, rather than having Big Brother or a team of fire-fighters everywhere. |
| Date | 18:09:15, July 03, 2008 CET | From | Revolutionary State Socialist Party | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | OOC: Well, if we get everyone in line, then we'll have plenty of surplus for extra things like two car garages, loads of desert, etc. Honestly though, the government in Starship Troopers, while a bit over the top, seems reasonable to me. Only people who have done "federal service" can vote, but those that didn't still have free speech, etc etc. |
| Date | 19:32:39, July 03, 2008 CET | From | Normand Pluralist Party | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | [[Never seen Starship Troopers, but I did read an article lambasting it.]] Anyway, putting this to a vote. Current figures shall be used to determine census results. |
| Date | 19:59:51, July 03, 2008 CET | From | Conservative Party | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | OOC: We are gossiping bunch of people, aren't we? All this talking! =D |
| Date | 20:00:51, July 03, 2008 CET | From | Conservative Party | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | CP proposes that upon passing of this bill that NPP, the creator of this bill, make a seperate bill with the word 'Results' in its title for us to post our results. |
| Date | 20:02:09, July 03, 2008 CET | From | Revolutionary State Socialist Party | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | (Its a book/movie that people either hate or love, there is no middle ground. Most of the people who hate it tend to be the people who like to use labels though. The type of people who judge a book by its cover.) |
| Date | 20:11:35, July 03, 2008 CET | From | 帝国公明党 (Teikoku Kōmeitō) | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | OOC: NPP; That's more or less what I was meaning, I just could'nt think of the best way to put it. Also, I greatly disliked the government in StarShip Troopers since I consider Democracy (and concensus, being the ultimate form) the only acceptable form of government. |
| Date | 20:14:11, July 03, 2008 CET | From | Sekowan Independent Party | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | OOC: Starship Troopers was one of the most ridiculous movies and books I've ever read. That said, it was fun to watch :D NPP, find me on AIM if you would so I can make sure I do the census thing properly? |
| Date | 20:26:39, July 03, 2008 CET | From | Revolutionary State Socialist Party | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | (People still vote in Starship Troopers, you just have to do federal service :p And MSN pwns AIM) |
| Date | 20:43:03, July 03, 2008 CET | From | 帝国公明党 (Teikoku Kōmeitō) | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | OOC: Yes, but it's not Universal Suffrage, and anything that is'nt, in my opinion needs to be eliminated. |
| Date | 21:30:32, July 03, 2008 CET | From | Revolutionary State Socialist Party | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | OOC: Then your opinion is wrong :D |
| Date | 23:31:27, July 03, 2008 CET | From | Normand Pluralist Party | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | [[The article lambasting it was analyzing the plot as if it were a book. Essentially, it was "how to write a really bad story". Yes, Census results will be a separate bill. I favour AIM over MSN for the record, though I have both.]] |
| Date | 00:21:37, July 04, 2008 CET | From | Revolutionary State Socialist Party | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | (The book is more liked the the movie, its considered a classic by anyone atleast. MSN has tons more features) |
| Date | 05:03:31, July 04, 2008 CET | From | Normand Pluralist Party | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | [[Are you kidding me? You can't even italicize a single word in MSN.]] |
| Date | 14:47:46, July 04, 2008 CET | From | Revolutionary State Socialist Party | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | (But you can play all kinds of games, vid and voice chat, etc etc. And for being microsoft, it is less likely to have viruses then AIM, as odd as that sounds) |
| Date | 19:09:53, July 04, 2008 CET | From | Normand Pluralist Party | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | [[I actually use the Pidgin client, where viruses and games are non-issues, the the inability to italicize is. AIM also allows for vid chat, though neither of them are remotely as stable as Skype.]] |
| Date | 22:15:53, July 04, 2008 CET | From | Revolutionary State Socialist Party | To | Debating the Sekowo Census |
| Message | (MSN is just better :p) |
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