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Bill: AFFS 021.2598 Religious Schools
Details
Submitted by[?]: Anti-Federalists of Free Sekowo
Status[?]: defeated
Votes: This is an ordinary bill. It requires more yes votes than no votes. This bill will not pass any sooner than the deadline.
Voting deadline: May 2599
Description[?]:
| As an exercise in liberty, it is important to allow schools to teach without the government interfering in the curriculum. This should be supported, as the alternative is a large program of "home schooling" with many families together, but still maintaining, via co-operative, a religious school system. This bill isn't changing anything except for allowing the people to maintain their own facilities, rather than being forced by an aggressive government into their homes to study. |
Proposals
Article 1
Proposal[?] to change The governments stance on religious schools.
Old value:: Any religion may set up a school, but they are strictly regulated.
Current: Religious schools are not allowed.
Proposed: Any religion may set up a school, with no regulations.
Debate
These messages have been posted to debate on this bill:
| Date | 21:08:38, June 27, 2008 CET | From | 帝国公明党 (Teikoku Kōmeitō) | To | Debating the AFFS 021.2598 Religious Schools |
| Message | I can say with 100% accuracy that I'll be voting against it base don the description. :P |
| Date | 01:59:48, June 28, 2008 CET | From | Anti-Federalists of Free Sekowo | To | Debating the AFFS 021.2598 Religious Schools |
| Message | Yeah... Funny thing, you never seemed to like religion of any number of gods, did you... |
| Date | 02:29:56, June 28, 2008 CET | From | Normand Pluralist Party | To | Debating the AFFS 021.2598 Religious Schools |
| Message | Support, as always. |
| Date | 03:05:12, June 28, 2008 CET | From | 帝国公明党 (Teikoku Kōmeitō) | To | Debating the AFFS 021.2598 Religious Schools |
| Message | Nope, I consider Religion to be one of the worst things Humanity has ever created. |
| Date | 03:07:54, June 28, 2008 CET | From | Normand Pluralist Party | To | Debating the AFFS 021.2598 Religious Schools |
| Message | Funny. I feel the same way about Socialism. |
| Date | 04:58:15, June 28, 2008 CET | From | Sekowan Independent Party | To | Debating the AFFS 021.2598 Religious Schools |
| Message | Zing! Though I'll have to side with the Pluralists on this one, definitely. Socialism is a great _theory_, but it's just that...a theory. If you could get every single person to agree that socialism was the way to go, and then to ADHERE TO IT, it would be a perfectly utopian society. I'll also be the first person to remind you that humans are greedy, selfish, vain, and perhaps most importantly, almost all of us have a sadistic streak. But I love the theory of socialism. I just don't think it's realistic. Much like I love the theory of abolishing money and having everything available to everyone! (Oh, wait, that is Socialism...) It's just never going to happen, not so long as people continue to believe they can put themselves above others, and feel it is their right to do so. Socialism: Good idea, but humanity (As a race) is not there yet. Every time someone tries to bring the socialist utopia into power, it gets turned into what is now known as "Communism". Which, I could rant about how Communism has gotten a bad rap due to the people who use that term or are branded by that term...but the truth is, I agree with that negativity. I meet a lot of people who label themselves as Socialists that I truly enjoy speaking to, and DSP/Iori is one of them. There was another from another country, I read his forums and he was a bright, well spoken individual. And then another forum member, high ranking, came in and joined the discussion, attacking democracy and conservatism without fact, proof, or any sort of higher reasoning. He added that those who were not "ready to share utopia" were of lesser evolution or race, and proceeded to tell everyone that anyone who didn't believe in socialism should be conquered so that they could "evolve to a higher level of existance." ...and that reminded me why I don't believe in Socialism anymore. :P To be fair, I used to believe it was the one true way of evolution into utopia. Then, I stayed for four years on the minimum-wage end of the workforce. The lower stations are more than ready to do anything neccesary, as long as they can avoid punishment, to achieve a higher station. Oh, except hard work, most of them... Ahem, back on topic/task/IC/whatever... The Independent Party will fully support this bill. |
| Date | 05:05:59, June 28, 2008 CET | From | Revolutionary State Socialist Party | To | Debating the AFFS 021.2598 Religious Schools |
| Message | I like to regulate everything. |
| Date | 05:34:56, June 28, 2008 CET | From | 帝国公明党 (Teikoku Kōmeitō) | To | Debating the AFFS 021.2598 Religious Schools |
| Message | OOC: I agree that Humanity, at least the majority of it is not at the present time ready for Socialism. But then that's why I'm what I am, I believe in Progressive Keynesian economics i the near term (decades) and gradually through the democratic process, reform and education transforming into true Socialism in the long term (centuries). That I suppose may seem like a silly idea since most people don't expect to live that long, but at the rate certain technologies are progressing, My generation (Gen Y) will, in the second half of our lives be able to utilize technology that will extend life and eventually allow for true immortality, so because of that I tend to think on long term scales. Oh, and it is intellectualy stimulating conversing with you as well. Ironically enough one of my friends in HS was a ROTC right of center republican, made me think of that. |
| Date | 08:17:26, June 28, 2008 CET | From | Sekowan Independent Party | To | Debating the AFFS 021.2598 Religious Schools |
| Message | OOC: I suppose my largest problem with Socialism, currently, is that it's all theory and dreams of the future. While those are well and good, it doesn't serve to stop the war, famine, and downward spiral humanity is taking right now. In a hundred years, all the technology in the world regarding human health won't do much good when there isn't enough fresh water or organic food to sustain life on even it's current scale... I enjoy discussing politics, oddly enough, because I believe that the only way to understand and conquer a problem is to...well, discuss it! lol. But, anyway, back to the bill, aye? |
| Date | 08:27:35, June 28, 2008 CET | From | Normand Pluralist Party | To | Debating the AFFS 021.2598 Religious Schools |
| Message | [[You're a transhumanist? Anyway, all of the wonderful "theoretically good" things about socialism can be applied to Christianity (or many other religions) as well. It's a two-bladed sword, really. Condemn the one without the other, and you're being hypocritical if you're condemning it simply on practical grounds.]] |
| Date | 09:25:21, June 28, 2008 CET | From | Conservative Party | To | Debating the AFFS 021.2598 Religious Schools |
| Message | CP supports. |
| Date | 09:30:55, June 28, 2008 CET | From | Anti-Federalists of Free Sekowo | To | Debating the AFFS 021.2598 Religious Schools |
| Message | IMF: Regulating everything dehumanizes mankind and makes them mere sheep. DSP: OOC: Assuming, (again, this is using it as a given) but assuming that religion has caused all of the wars up until 1659, and then for some reason everything became purely political, the damage that religion has done to humanity in that time period is nothing when looked at in comparison to the damage that socialism (not communism, but socialism) has done to the human race. The sheer number of deaths has caused it to be an obviously flawed and corrupt system, robbing the people of their humanity, and stripping them of their ideals. IC: Socialism is the practice of turning men into sheep, forcing them to obey and believe solely in the power of the state. The nanny-state which goes about, deciding what is and isn't truth, takes into its hands that which has never been given to any power on earth to decide. To say that Jainists, Abrahamists, Buddhists, and Atheists must all conform to the Atheist way of life is pure bigotry. Socialism is atheism. Looking at Abrahamism, the two are incompatible. It is building a way to heaven, rather than being good, and letting heaven come to you. Your labor reforms and attacks on the liberty of the people are a show of, frankly, racism. You do not allow different races of people, who often subscribe to the "lies of religion" the ability to practice them. Jews, Muslims, Christians, all must abide by your ideals. It's racist. |
| Date | 09:43:14, June 28, 2008 CET | From | Anti-Federalists of Free Sekowo | To | Debating the AFFS 021.2598 Religious Schools |
| Message | OOC: Wow, never expected to pull the race card... Ever. Mainly rhetoric, but still.... Whee, I get to have fun too... :p |
| Date | 10:10:59, June 28, 2008 CET | From | Sekowan Independent Party | To | Debating the AFFS 021.2598 Religious Schools |
| Message | OOC: Technically religions aren't races (with the exception of Judaism), so it's not "racial persecution" as much as "religious persecution". Ergo, he's not so much a racist as a bigot. It's not like he's saying "No <insert racial group here> will ever be in my utopia!" Either way, I could put you in touch with some real nutjobs, if you want to see the difference between Iori and some of his contemporaries. By comparison to some of them, Iori would be pretty conservative... if you can believe that, lol. |
| Date | 10:14:15, June 28, 2008 CET | From | Sekowan Independent Party | To | Debating the AFFS 021.2598 Religious Schools |
| Message | OOC: BTW, to define bigot (I edited that out but didn't realize it when I went back over my message)... "a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance" And so on the scale of bigotry, he doesn't seem half as bad as a lot of people I know. He does make some pretty inflammatory comments here or there, though, particularly when the NPP tries to localize everything... |
| Date | 17:20:01, June 28, 2008 CET | From | Revolutionary State Socialist Party | To | Debating the AFFS 021.2598 Religious Schools |
| Message | OOC: Unfortunatly, AFFS, it may be nessisary. I myself support trasnhumanism. I also believe the only way to stop war is to: 1) Forcibly unite humantiy 2) Find an external threat to combat. That last part is where transhumanism comes in. I firmly believe an alien threat (REAL or FAKE) would do wonders for brining the entire world together. |
| Date | 17:52:35, June 28, 2008 CET | From | Anti-Federalists of Free Sekowo | To | Debating the AFFS 021.2598 Religious Schools |
| Message | OOC: SIP, I believe in making the whole thing more realistic. Hence, propagandizing. There has been far too little mudslinging in Sekowo for this to be vaguely realistic. I promise those aren't my RL thoughts when I'm IC. DSP & IMF: I recommend reading the 'Grand Inquisitor' by Dostoevsky. It's not long, and would explain why I'm so bitterly opposed (that is, it sums up my thoughts) to the ideas of stripping people of their liberties, and regulating everything. In this case, you may see it as anti-religion, but it's really only anti-/state/ religion. |
| Date | 19:24:09, June 28, 2008 CET | From | 帝国公明党 (Teikoku Kōmeitō) | To | Debating the AFFS 021.2598 Religious Schools |
| Message | OOC: NPP; Yes, I am a Transhumanist,actually if you look at my party factions, excluding the Imperialists you can see the various different ideas I profess. AFFS; I don't assume all the wars since then have been caused by religion, indeed most of the wars since 1700 have had nothing to do with religion for the most part. However religion, specifically the Abrahamic religions (modern Judaism and Bahai excluded) have killed hundreds of thousands in the name of their god and have taught hatred towards anyone different then them. IC: We do not support the stripping of liberty except in the most extreme of cases. If people choose to believe in a religion whatever it may be, then fine, belief is a basic Human Right, however they do not have a right to force their unscientific ideologies on others or mix them with the state. |
| Date | 20:38:41, June 28, 2008 CET | From | Anti-Federalists of Free Sekowo | To | Debating the AFFS 021.2598 Religious Schools |
| Message | IC: Religious schools are private, not public. Only those who choose to attend will attend. To say that they have no right to educate their children according to the beliefs of their fathers violates every principles of freedom. This Gao-Showan travesty cannot continue. We must allow others the freedom to be educated according to the dictates of their conscience. OOC: And Socialism/Communism has taught hatred and intolerance toward any who believe differently, leading to Gulags and Concentration camps for those who don't fit the 'one size fits all' mold. They have extinguished or smothered a great deal of culture and have tried to eliminate in several cases entire peoples, due to the people not conforming with the freedom-stripping ideology. |
| Date | 20:51:51, June 28, 2008 CET | From | 帝国公明党 (Teikoku Kōmeitō) | To | Debating the AFFS 021.2598 Religious Schools |
| Message | OOC: And none of them have followed the ideals really either. The USSR was a mixture of Soviet Communism (the kind Marx did'nt like), neo-Imperialism and Leninist revolutionarianism. I don't deny that people have been killed by regimes that have the audacity to call themselves Communist or Socialist, but thy are'nt the same as the true kind. Socialism is in itself supposed to be free and democratic, just using a socialist economic system to redistribute thing sin a fair manner. |
| Date | 20:59:10, June 28, 2008 CET | From | Anti-Federalists of Free Sekowo | To | Debating the AFFS 021.2598 Religious Schools |
| Message | OOC: Hence, I could say that "I don't deny that people have been killed by regimes that have the audacity to call themselves Christian or Muslim, but thy aren't (sorry, had to paraphrase because I'm a grammar nut and the apostrophe got me) the same as the true kind." Christianity and Islam are supposed to be uplifting, free and liberating, so that argument works both ways. |
| Date | 21:55:38, June 28, 2008 CET | From | 帝国公明党 (Teikoku Kōmeitō) | To | Debating the AFFS 021.2598 Religious Schools |
| Message | OOC: Well I'm not opposed to that argument since I've used it in regards to those two religions before, surprisingly enough. I like the old Islam, it was pretty cool. |
| Date | 21:56:40, June 28, 2008 CET | From | Anti-Federalists of Free Sekowo | To | Debating the AFFS 021.2598 Religious Schools |
| Message | OOC: Old Islam isn't dead. You just don't hear about it in the news. |
| Date | 23:32:27, June 28, 2008 CET | From | Revolutionary State Socialist Party | To | Debating the AFFS 021.2598 Religious Schools |
| Message | OOC: Yeah, my favorite religion is old skool Islam, back when it was democratic (and thats odd for me too lol) |
| Date | 08:42:11, June 29, 2008 CET | From | Normand Pluralist Party | To | Debating the AFFS 021.2598 Religious Schools |
| Message | [[Old Islam? Old Islam that forced all of Arabia to convert or be slain (anyone heard of the Ridda Wars)? What kind of Old Islam are you folks talking about?]] |
| Date | 08:44:19, June 29, 2008 CET | From | Normand Pluralist Party | To | Debating the AFFS 021.2598 Religious Schools |
| Message | [[Oh, and Mao was about as "idealist" Communist as they come, at least in the beginning. However, his idealism got in the way of Realism, and the Cultural Revolution, the product of idealist Communism, killed millions of innocent Chinese communists who all did their best to revolutionize China. Communism, as a political, as opposed to religious or philosophical ideal, is inherently self-destructive.]] |
| Date | 16:28:43, June 29, 2008 CET | From | Revolutionary State Socialist Party | To | Debating the AFFS 021.2598 Religious Schools |
| Message | (Perhaps :), and I'm wondering, have any of you ever been in a religious school, or visit one on a regular basis? Believe it or not, I've been in one and visit one on a regular basis x.x) |
| Date | 23:38:55, June 29, 2008 CET | From | 帝国公明党 (Teikoku Kōmeitō) | To | Debating the AFFS 021.2598 Religious Schools |
| Message | NPP: The old Islam that was more socially liberal, the old Islam that helped develop many mathematical theories, some of which are advanced even today. |
| Date | 05:54:02, June 30, 2008 CET | From | Normand Pluralist Party | To | Debating the AFFS 021.2598 Religious Schools |
| Message | [[DSP, are you talking about the mythological Old Islam, then, instead of the historical one? Islam has NEVER been socially liberal, though it has been very encouraging of scientific research and translation (and remains so today).]] |
| Date | 08:46:25, June 30, 2008 CET | From | Anti-Federalists of Free Sekowo | To | Debating the AFFS 021.2598 Religious Schools |
| Message | DSP & NPP: Read the Qur'an. It might help. However, I'm inclined to side with NPP and traditional understanding of the Qur'an over wikipedia. |
| Date | 08:57:04, June 30, 2008 CET | From | Normand Pluralist Party | To | Debating the AFFS 021.2598 Religious Schools |
| Message | [[I have read many parts of the Qur'an in translation, as well as extensive samples of hadith from multiple collections.]] |
| Date | 06:33:25, July 01, 2008 CET | From | Anti-Federalists of Free Sekowo | To | Debating the AFFS 021.2598 Religious Schools |
| Message | ((I had assumed so, since you had agreed with me, to be honest) |
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Voting
| Vote | Seats | |||||
| yes |
Total Seats: 300 | |||||
| no | Total Seats: 300 | |||||
| abstain |
Total Seats: 0 |
| Random fact: For more information on Particracy's former colonial nations, check out http://forum.particracy.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6640 |
| Random quote: As for rape, of course, that is a direct consequence of the capitalist system of oppression. Capitalism relies on fuelling division and resentment to sustain itself, and so it sets men against women, race against race and so on. Men rape women because they are being oppressed by capitalism, so they take it out on women. Under Communism, there will be no rape, because there will be a full and natural harmony and equality between the genders. ~ Friedrich Pfeiffer General Secretary of the Dorvish Communist Party |