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Bill: OOC: On the History of Talmoria

Details

Submitted by^[?]: Kalimat Allah

Status^[?]: defeated

Votes: This bill is a resolution. It requires more yes votes than no votes. This bill will not pass any sooner than the deadline.

Voting deadline: December 2767

Description^[?]:

The wiki page of Talmoria is barren and devoid of anything aside from a few out-of-date facts from decades ago. I'll be working on extending the wiki, and keeping all the information update, however, there is one part of the wiki that I can not do by myself. Obviously, this is the history portion. As it stands, all that the wiki says on this is that Likatonia settled on Talmoria in the 2100's. Obviously, this isn't much to work with. Below are a few ideas that I think might work well with Talmoria and the intended roleplay of the new parties.

-The natives of Talmoria, and its colonies are descendants of the one mighty Asli people. It is rumored that the Asli Empire once encompassed territories in all of the southern continents of Terra. However, with the emergence of Northern Powers that united against this great Empire, along with countless revolts across its lands, the Asli Empire fell apart, leaving its people to obscurity.

The Asli people have been determined to resemble RL Africans, although the Asli of different parts of the world most likely have varying ethnic correlations. In my time in Al'Badara I established that the Badaran Aslis were mainly of Egyptian, and North African ethnicities. I believe that a mix of Somali and Ethiopian ethnicities would work well for Tealmoria.

-The Celtic/Saxon peoples are descendants of the original Likatonian colonists who established themselves as a ruling minority class focused in the original five Talmori provinces. Similarly to the European colonizers, some of these Likatonian colonists abused the natives for their own profit, while others tried to turn these natives into what they considered to be civilized and clean humans.

I would much appreciate input from all of the other Talmori parties, especially the National Imperial Party, as they have been around for most of Talmoria's history. I'll be scouring the bills and updating the wiki for most of this weekend and next. :)

Proposals

Debate

These messages have been posted to debate on this bill:

Date	21:14:08, March 07, 2009 CET
From	Talmorian Monarchist Coalition
To	Debating the OOC: On the History of Talmoria
Message	I ask that Talmoria have Jewish people who came from Squibble and French people from Lourenne.

Date	21:31:53, March 07, 2009 CET
From	Kalimat Allah
To	Debating the OOC: On the History of Talmoria
Message	Unlikely. The Jews largely emigrated from Beitenyu to Squibble. Unless there was an indigenous population of Squibble Jews, any spreading of the Jewish Faith to Northern Dovani is unlikely. Even if there was such a population, native technology would limit their spreading of the faith. As for the French, to my understanding, they are also colonists. Since I'm sure that most colonial powers wanted to keep their colonies under purely their own influence, immigration from other colonial powers would not have occurred until the 2400's and later when Talmoria became its own nation. Even then, there is very little reason why the Lourenne French would emigrate to Talmoria. Perhaps a small population would be reasonable, but nothing notable.

Date	21:35:04, March 07, 2009 CET
From	Talmorian Monarchist Coalition
To	Debating the OOC: On the History of Talmoria
Message	The Jews went from Squibble to Beiteynu in Ancient times and I wasn't thinking alot of French. Lourenne is right next to us.

Date	21:45:52, March 07, 2009 CET
From	Kalimat Allah
To	Debating the OOC: On the History of Talmoria
Message	I thought Judaism was founded in Beitenyu? Also, the fact that they're next to one another reinforces my point. Both nations are practically the same geographically. Why would they leave their homeland for an exactly similar nation with a widely different culture?

Date	21:54:06, March 07, 2009 CET
From	Talmorian Monarchist Coalition
To	Debating the OOC: On the History of Talmoria
Message	No, Squibble to Beiteynu. Who are you talking about there?

Date	22:03:18, March 07, 2009 CET
From	Kalimat Allah
To	Debating the OOC: On the History of Talmoria
Message	Then why the Hell is Beitenyu so damn holy? <_< And I was talking about Lourenne in the second part.

Date	22:25:19, March 07, 2009 CET
From	Talmorian Monarchist Coalition
To	Debating the OOC: On the History of Talmoria
Message	Well, why would the French not want to come here? And, I don't know.

Date	22:32:37, March 07, 2009 CET
From	Kalimat Allah
To	Debating the OOC: On the History of Talmoria
Message	Let's take a look at a RL example. Ireland, and England are fairly similar geographically. However, it doesn't take a genius to figure out they have enormously different cultures! This isn't the case in this example, but let's just say that they're on approximately the same level economically. Why in the world would an Irishman move to a completely different culture when the living situation wouldn't be any better?

Date	22:46:53, March 07, 2009 CET
From	Talmorian Monarchist Coalition
To	Debating the OOC: On the History of Talmoria
Message	He wants to.

Date	22:59:03, March 07, 2009 CET
From	Kalimat Allah
To	Debating the OOC: On the History of Talmoria
Message	Why would he want to? There is no logical basis behind it.

Date	10:36:37, March 08, 2009 CET
From	Talmori Voodoo Movement
To	Debating the OOC: On the History of Talmoria
Message	These are our neighbors, I will come up with their analysis later, for now the map: http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/particracy/images/2/25/Dovani_Geopolitical_Map.png

Date	10:55:12, March 08, 2009 CET
From	Talmori Voodoo Movement
To	Debating the OOC: On the History of Talmoria
Message	Lourenne speak French, it is totally alright since Africa mostly is French/English speaking. So we have some French national language blacks as our neighbors and some French white colonists. In the South we have Indrala and its colonies. Indrala is Gao Showa (Japanese), not sure of the race of their colonies. They have some French speaking minority as well. Mordusians as nation are English speaking whites. We have their colonies as our neighbor, not sure of the race. Sekowans are of Gao Showa (japanese) and Nordic origin themselves. But their colonies differ very much. We have Medina in the South (Arabic Islamic), this is the birthplace of both Dovani Islam and Jews with cities New Meca and New Yirulasim. So both religions can be present in our colonies as well. They have colony named Kurageri which is ethnic African close to us. Excellent flag! (http://particracy.wikia.com/wiki/Image:Kurageri_flag.png) So we will have mostly black in colonial lands (majority English as common language and tribal dialects as second lang; with some French majority speakers close to Lourenne colonies).

Date	11:00:31, March 08, 2009 CET
From	Talmori Voodoo Movement
To	Debating the OOC: On the History of Talmoria
Message	On religions: Major religions in Talmoria - Christian, because of white colonists and their missionaries (most of main Talmoria are Christian) - Woodoo, those not yet converted are woodoo followers, mostly in eastern part of colonies - Islam, mostly in Southern part, but there are Chistian families that go Islam because according to Christian traditions babies unbaptized do not go to heaven but to limbo instead. Because of high child mortality rates among black Talmorians their parents decide to change to Islam, because in Islam babies go to Heaven without visiting limbo (interesting fact I found about why Africans choose more Islam than Christianity). So Islam followers are growing at faster speed - Judaism, both white Jews that live in colonial parts and baptized blacks. I would like to leave some 2-5% Jews there, so that we can have at some point of future (very far future) Haile Selassie type leader - Iron Lion of Zion :)

Date	11:01:46, March 08, 2009 CET
From	Talmori Voodoo Movement
To	Debating the OOC: On the History of Talmoria
Message	I agree to the rest. Only I would say Asli empire was very decentralized and mostly here only in beaches of the land, because in Jungle at that time no one could get an order :)

Date	13:47:50, March 08, 2009 CET
From	Islami al Omal Taraf
To	Debating the OOC: On the History of Talmoria
Message	I think more than a minority of more than 1% for ethnic Jews, as in those that came from Squibble, to be unlikely. While the Jews originally came from Squibble, they travelled Eastwards on the basis of a prophecy (or at least, thats what the Terran Torah teaches) with the other Semitic groups, and never stopped in Dovani. There was a Jewish party who RP'd a Jewish minority left over from the Semitic migrations in Indrala, so if we wanted to have a Jewish minority in the South of the Talmorian colonies we could put in part of the history that Jewish missionaries from Indrala came over and converted some of the Black population. The good news is that, due to their almost complete isolation from Beiteynu (where I've always thought modern Judaism formed as a fusion of the Hebrew Semites and Jelbek cultures in the region), this form of Judaism could be as fucked up and strange in their worship of the Iron Lion of Zion as we liked :). Anyway, here's a map of the Dovani colonies: http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/particracy/images/2/25/Dovani_Geopolitical_Map.png We'd probably need to speak to the Indralans first, but I imagine the Hanzen Free State would be mostly Gao-Showan with a Black minority. I was thinking that we should have something like 1/3rd colonist, 2/3rd native in Tamoria proper, which would allow a semi-democratic rule by the colonists being a bit devious without having to resort to apartheid. In the colonies, I think basically almost totally Black, with a few % colonist and some ethnic Semites would make the most sense. Also, if we're going to make the Black population the descendents of the Asli empire, would the Black parties not be best to switch their names to reference Asli rather than Talmoria, since Talmoria would likely be the colonial name? Sort of like a Zimbabwe/Rhodesia situation?

Date	14:43:32, March 08, 2009 CET
From	Talmorian Monarchist Coalition
To	Debating the OOC: On the History of Talmoria
Message	There is a sudden influx of Jews and Barmenian Muslims here with the DSI and ZI, which have followed me with my Beiteynuese-Barmenian Army.

Date	15:03:52, March 08, 2009 CET
From	Islami al Omal Taraf
To	Debating the OOC: On the History of Talmoria
Message	I dunno DSP, that kinda goes back to what Kalimat Allah was saying- why would they all decide to come here? I mean, both need to fight in their own countries more than here- Beiteynu is being part-occupied by two countries and is perpetually on the brink of war, and Barmenistani Muslims can't even establish Islam in their own country, never mind here. I appreciate the enthusiasm of wanting to tie all your parties together, however I think it stretches the bounds of realism.

Date	15:16:19, March 08, 2009 CET
From	Talmorian Monarchist Coalition
To	Debating the OOC: On the History of Talmoria
Message	The Jews got tired of Pontesi and Luthori and the Barmenistani's felt they could do more here than in Communist Barmenistan.

Date	16:53:43, March 08, 2009 CET
From	Talmori Voodoo Movement
To	Debating the OOC: On the History of Talmoria
Message	Well maybe we all can accept this story for DSP of Talmoria: There was a reason/reasons for Jess Avery to visit Talmoria, there he met with his Jewish(?) friends and decided to establish new party that would fight racism (either because blacks promised a good deal or Jess was idealistic). The Democratic Socialist Party. Best politicians from its Beiteinyu collegues arrived to help new political force. This would be the tie between the DSP in Talmoria and DSP in Beiteinyu. Now on name. I am ok with both keeping Talmoria or changing it to more African name. Need to have a brainstorm for Afrcanish name if we choose the second.

Date	16:58:16, March 08, 2009 CET
From	Talmorian Monarchist Coalition
To	Debating the OOC: On the History of Talmoria
Message	We were idealistic and we moved the entire party here.

Date	17:05:18, March 08, 2009 CET
From	Talmorian Monarchist Coalition
To	Debating the OOC: On the History of Talmoria
Message	What about, The Asli Homeland of Talmoria, Aslind, Asliria, or Asliland?

Date	17:07:03, March 08, 2009 CET
From	Talmorian Monarchist Coalition
To	Debating the OOC: On the History of Talmoria
Message	We suggest as a Tribal language, Asliins.

Date	17:13:32, March 08, 2009 CET
From	Talmori Voodoo Movement
To	Debating the OOC: On the History of Talmoria
Message	Aslibu, Aslizwe (Asli land/nation in Zulu), Talzania, Aslimbe, Asliabwe.. but lets have separate thread for this - to be deleted once we choose the name.

Date	17:15:35, March 08, 2009 CET
From	Talmorian Monarchist Coalition
To	Debating the OOC: On the History of Talmoria
Message	Okay.

Date	18:30:41, March 08, 2009 CET
From	Kalimat Allah
To	Debating the OOC: On the History of Talmoria
Message	Good progress here. I agree with most everything except for the Barmenistani Muslims. Barmenistan was the birthplacem of Mohammed and Islam in Terra, and holds some of the holiest places in all of Islam. Most diehard missionaries would stay in Barmenia and continue fighting. However, I can accept that a few of the normal Muslims would be willing to move to the Talmori Colonies to avoid eventual persecution in Barmenia.

Date	18:37:37, March 08, 2009 CET
From	Talmorian Monarchist Coalition
To	Debating the OOC: On the History of Talmoria
Message	I wouldn't of thought diehard muslims would fight in a Jewish Army.

Date	19:13:29, March 08, 2009 CET
From	Kalimat Allah
To	Debating the OOC: On the History of Talmoria
Message	I never said that?

Date	19:47:42, March 08, 2009 CET
From	Talmorian Monarchist Coalition
To	Debating the OOC: On the History of Talmoria
Message	I know, I agreed with you.

Date	22:43:21, March 08, 2009 CET
From	Parti Monarchiste de Lourenne
To	Debating the OOC: On the History of Talmoria
Message	The Lourennian colonies, according to our history, are VERY sparsely populated. Dense jungle and lack of real French influence outside of the main states and some very close colonial holdings (those on the western shoreline of the peninsula) mandates that the majority of the population of our colonies would be primitive natives living the same way they have since the beginning of their time on Dovani. The French influence even in Lourenne Proper is limited... It is unlikely that their would be a large influence from Lourennians in Talmoria.

Date	22:55:44, March 08, 2009 CET
From	Islami al Omal Taraf
To	Debating the OOC: On the History of Talmoria
Message	Thanks for the information. Can I ask if there is any established consensus on the culture or ethnicity of the jungle natives?

Date	01:33:14, March 09, 2009 CET
From	Parti Monarchiste de Lourenne
To	Debating the OOC: On the History of Talmoria
Message	http://particracy.wikia.com/wiki/Lourenne#Demographics <--- It's not necessarily updated, as far as the French go, but the native stuff still stands. Primarily Mayan, with Zapotec and Mixtec minorities.

Date	14:36:32, March 09, 2009 CET
From	Talmori Voodoo Movement
To	Debating the OOC: On the History of Talmoria
Message	"The French influence even in Lourenne Proper is limited" - but why then your cabinet has French and English names only? Or it was about that French ethnicity is in minority, but French language is the national language?

Date	18:22:50, March 09, 2009 CET
From	Parti Monarchiste de Lourenne
To	Debating the OOC: On the History of Talmoria
Message	French minority rule is enforced in Lourenne a lot like the British Raj in India prior to the independence movement there. An educated, wealthy French minority descended from Rildanorian colonists assert their power over an uneducated, impoverished, native population.

Date	19:05:17, March 09, 2009 CET
From	Talmori Voodoo Movement
To	Debating the OOC: On the History of Talmoria
Message	Fair enough. Thanks for educating us on Lourenne affairs!

Date	02:32:54, June 06, 2009 CET
From	Kalimat Allah
To	Debating the OOC: On the History of Talmoria
Message	Archiving.

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