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Bill: Education Reform Bill
Details
Submitted by[?]: Herut Orthodoxy
Status[?]: defeated
Votes: This is an ordinary bill. It requires more yes votes than no votes. This bill will not pass any sooner than the deadline.
Voting deadline: December 2127
Description[?]:
| Another try to get our esteemed members to understand that education is the key to all future success. |
Proposals
Article 1
Proposal[?] to change The age until which students, if education were to be compulsary, are required to be educated (limited between 16 and 21).
Old value:: 16
Current: 16
Proposed: 18
Debate
These messages have been posted to debate on this bill:
| Date | 03:06:55, October 18, 2005 CET | From |  Liberty Party | To | Debating the Education Reform Bill |
| Message | We understand perfectly well that education is the key to (most) future success. We also understand that forcing people aged 16-18 to stay in education is not going to be of any benefit to those who do not want to be there. In fact, it will clearly be detrimental since those 16-18 year olds could be out learning a trade, starting a business, pursuing an apprenticeship instead of going to school and not caring about it. Don't patronise us, especially not with these half-formed ideas. |
| Date | 16:03:16, October 18, 2005 CET | From | Herut Orthodoxy | To | Debating the Education Reform Bill |
| Message | Oh, wow, that's the way to go, LP. "Don't patronize us"... Don't let yourself be patronized tough guy - suck it up. The idea that 16 - 18 year olds are somehow ready to start a business is funny. With what capital? Oh, and since ideas can not be protected, then what industry are they going to get into? Making cars? Airplanes? with an educationf it for a 16 year old? Laughable. Every High School I have seen has many 'apprenticeship' jobs. They have work study programs as well. Do you not think those could be made available, too? You have an outdated and incorrect view of what education is and it makes it very hard to discuss things because of it. Also, the idea that sometimes people might just have to do things they do not care about isn't really infringing upon any liberty is it? They are not adults until 18 here, so why do they at 16 get more say than a 15 year old over schooling? As far as 'half-formed' goes, the only thing half-formed is your knowledge of what an education system can be. It will not limit the ability of children to do work study, take up more of the industrial arts, or proceed forward with ideas of starting a business. The only reaqson this would be limited is if you make it that limited, which no one is proposing.... are you? |
| Date | 16:26:34, October 18, 2005 CET | From | Liberty Party | To | Debating the Education Reform Bill |
| Message | "The idea that 16 - 18 year olds are somehow ready to start a business is funny." We're glad that we've been able to provide some amusement. "With what capital?" Not all businesses require large amounts of start-up capital. "Oh, and since ideas can not be protected, then what industry are they going to get into?" Actually cars and airplanes are both patentable under current Trigunian law. Of course we would happily abolish patent rights on those too if we had the option. "Every High School I have seen has many 'apprenticeship' jobs. " Well, no high school I have seen has. In any event, why should school - a predominantly academic environment have any relevance for a trade. Aside from providing an initial introduction to the relevant business, the school is totally useless for that purpose. "You have an outdated and incorrect view of what education is and it makes it very hard to discuss things because of it." My view of what education *is* (as distinct from what it could or should be) is entirely the product of the educational environments I have experienced. What makes this discussion hard is that you save your talk about your experience of education for your response post, while making an inflammatory proposal description. "Also, the idea that sometimes people might just have to do things they do not care about isn't really infringing upon any liberty is it? " The state coercing people to act against their own wishes just because the government wants to be in control is the very definition of an infringement of liberty. The fact that they are not adults means that if anyone gets to overrule their decisions, it is their guardians, not you. "why do they at 16 get more say than a 15 year old over schooling?" Why does an 18 year old get more say than a 16 year old? Why does a 16 year old get more say than a 10 year old? Because there is no magic divising line where the child is suddenly and magically turned into an adult overnight on his 18th birthday. It is entirely right and appropriate that as children mature in adults they get progressively more say in their own lives. "The only reaqson this would be limited is if you make it that limited, which no one is proposing.... are you?" The limits are being imposed by you. By compelling people to stay in education you are, by definition, limiting what they are permitted to do. By opposing you, I am, by definition, not limiting what people are permitted to do. |
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Voting
| Vote | Seats | |||||||
| yes |
Total Seats: 0 | |||||||
| no |
Total Seats: 555 | |||||||
| abstain | Total Seats: 0 |
| Random fact: Character names must appear plausible and should consist of at least a first name and a surname. Exceptions to this will only be granted at Moderation's discretion and where a very strong case has been presented |
| Random quote: "A people that values its privileges above its principles soon loses both." - Dwight D. Eisenhower |