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Bill: Biological and Chemical Weapons Ban
Details
Submitted by[?]: Democratic Socialist Party of Egelion
Status[?]: defeated
Votes: This is an ordinary bill. It requires more yes votes than no votes. This bill will not pass any sooner than the deadline.
Voting deadline: January 2838
Description[?]:
| This bill's purpose is to repeal the extant law on permitting the government to develop and maintain Biological and Chemical Weapons. |
Proposals
Article 1
Proposal[?] to change The government's policy concerning biological and chemical weaponry.
Old value:: The nation reserves the right to develop, construct and store biological and chemical weapons.
Current: The nation reserves the right to develop, construct and store biological and chemical weapons.
Proposed: The nation shall never develop, purchase or store biological or chemical weaponry.
Article 2
Proposal[?] to change The government's policy concerning the use of chemical and biological weaponry in warfare.
Old value:: The nation shall never use chemical or biological weapons in warfare unless another nation uses them first.
Current: The nation shall never use chemical or biological weapons in warfare unless another nation uses them first.
Proposed: The nation shall never use chemical or biological weaponry in warfare.
Debate
These messages have been posted to debate on this bill:
| Date | 02:06:54, October 23, 2009 CET | From | SDLP/ Caillea Vinstri Bandalag | To | Debating the Biological and Chemical Weapons Ban |
| Message | The SDLP has tried numerous times to get such a bill passed, with the addition of banning nuclear weapons. The EPP has been firmly against the idea in the past, so we have been unable to do so |
| Date | 08:58:01, October 23, 2009 CET | From | Democratic Socialist Party of Egelion | To | Debating the Biological and Chemical Weapons Ban |
| Message | It is important to consider in this debate the benefits of banning the development of biological and chemical weapons to the overall development of the socio-economic base of Egelion. The proposal does not intend to lessen drastically our country's defense spending but to put an impetus that the welfare of the people is given importance the same with national security. The EPP must realize that this is a big step towards Egelion having a reputable Armed Forces based upon the principle of peace and development. Otherwise, the EPP as the government do not live to its mandate. |
| Date | 11:13:00, October 23, 2009 CET | From | Christian Social People's Party | To | Debating the Biological and Chemical Weapons Ban |
| Message | The people of Egelion know our stance on this. As such we are living up to our democratic mandate as is. Quite simply the EPP is against the use of these weapons on any first strike basis, but frankly there are a lot of countries with these weapons and there always will be a lot of countries with these weapons and these weapons are needed for deterrence. It is not nice, it is not pleasant, but it is necessary. The suggestion that a country like Likatonia which has a long history of traipsing around the world attacking whoever it feels like, will refuse to use WMDs against us because we don't have any is ludicrous. Such a stance makes us a soft target. The simple reality is that as awful as WMDs are, used as a deterrent they save lives, on both sides. |
| Date | 18:19:01, October 23, 2009 CET | From | Democratic Socialist Party of Egelion | To | Debating the Biological and Chemical Weapons Ban |
| Message | The argument of the EPP is gladly taken note of. However, threats from other countries with Biological and Chemical weapons must be considered through diplomacy. We, as a free nation, must assert our rights to living in a safe and secure global environment free from the whims and threats of aggressive nations. The issue on biological and chemical weapons must not be treated by way of military deterrence but by expediency achieved through proper diplomacy and negotiation with nations possessing such weapons. |
| Date | 20:16:04, October 23, 2009 CET | From | Christian Social People's Party | To | Debating the Biological and Chemical Weapons Ban |
| Message | Diplomacy is a lovely term, and we are happy to use it. But the simple fact is that there are a lot of states on Terra that are frankly not susceptible to diplomacy. There are some nations on Terra, which have a long history of being stark raving mad. In the absence of any convincing international disarmament treaty there is no way of dealing with such nations and unilateral disarmament can only lead to risking lives. The world is not all sunshine and lollipops and cuddly little fairies in delightful little hats, the government of Egelion has to be rational. |
| Date | 20:23:38, October 23, 2009 CET | From | Democratic Socialist Party of Egelion | To | Debating the Biological and Chemical Weapons Ban |
| Message | Yes indeed we agree that the government must be rational... One thing of note though, that we in the DSPE and the party as a whole are against unilateral disarmament and favor multilateral efforts to ban biological and chemical weapons. |
| Date | 20:29:34, October 23, 2009 CET | From | Christian Social People's Party | To | Debating the Biological and Chemical Weapons Ban |
| Message | Multilateral efforts to ban biological and chemical weapons would be wonderful, but they are not going to happen, it is inpractical to think otherwise, and even if one nation has a first strike policy then Egelion is at risk. This bill will simply disarm unilaterally, and in the view of the EPP that puts Egelion at an unacceptable level of risk. |
| Date | 21:18:59, October 23, 2009 CET | From | SDLP/ Caillea Vinstri Bandalag | To | Debating the Biological and Chemical Weapons Ban |
| Message | Yes, and the SDLP has to question the effectiveness and morality of using such weapons. When have biological and chemical weapons ever been a deciding factor in a war? And as a liberal democracy that has taken great stands on human rights with such measures banning torture and capitol punishment and requiring human treatment of prisoners, how can Egelion then morally use weapons that are essentially inhumane and more than destructive? Biological and chemical weapons go beyond what is necessary to win a war and are simply used to demoralize or inflict unnecessary harm on civilian and military populations |
| Date | 21:49:52, October 23, 2009 CET | From | Christian Social People's Party | To | Debating the Biological and Chemical Weapons Ban |
| Message | In Terra biological and chemical weapons have been used to vicious effect and have decided wars. Morals are lovely, but the highest moral virtue is to save lives, only the use of deterrence can do that in this case. The EPP will never support Egelion using WMDs of any type except in response to a WMD attack and then only if truly appropriate. Only through deterrence can we guarantee the safety of Egelian citizens. Let me remind you, the current laws in this area only allow us to keep WMDs, they do not prescribe their use. Morals are contextual, such black and white definitions do not fit with the real world. It is best to keep these WMDs in case we need them, even though we all hope they never will be, just in case. |
| Date | 21:57:29, October 23, 2009 CET | From | Democratic Socialist Party of Egelion | To | Debating the Biological and Chemical Weapons Ban |
| Message | Deterrence is not an assurance of regional stability. It would just aggravate situations that supposedly need to be settled with diplomacy. You say that the law allows the government to keep WMDs but not use them, then what is the point of keeping WMDs? In addition, we agree with the SDLP. |
| Date | 22:05:20, October 23, 2009 CET | From | SDLP/ Caillea Vinstri Bandalag | To | Debating the Biological and Chemical Weapons Ban |
| Message | Then why has the EPP in the past supported measures to ban torture and capitol punishment? By your party's logic, we should keep them legal should we not? Just because we are allowed to torture and kill prisoners, doesn't mean we will, right? And we could always use the leway should the need arise, couldn't we? Egelion could just as easily build a conventional arsenal to use as a deterent while avoiding the moral issues with using weapons that should be internationally banned anyway. Yes, morals are great, and sometimes it is desirable to stand up for them even if it is inconvinient. |
| Date | 22:07:47, October 23, 2009 CET | From | Christian Social People's Party | To | Debating the Biological and Chemical Weapons Ban |
| Message | The law is currently that they can be used in response to a WMD attack. I was saying that the law does not mandate their use. Simply HAVING the weapons is not immoral. It is using them in an immoral way, and that is up to the judgement of the government of the day. However if the government of the day wants to use WMDs in an immoral way it CAN simply change the law anyway as it should have a majority by default. I would also argue that deterrence can create stabillity, by forcing a situation in which meaningful wars cannot be fought deterrence can enforce an unbreakable balance of power that creates peace. Perhaps that is not the way we would all like to see world peace brought about, but to the mind of the EPP all that matters is that less people die. |
| Date | 22:09:20, October 23, 2009 CET | From | Christian Social People's Party | To | Debating the Biological and Chemical Weapons Ban |
| Message | A conventional weapons platform can never deter attack in the way WMDs can. They are incomparable. Changing the laws on torture and capital punishment is different as the actions being constricted are not those of the central government but of the justice system. This is a different kettle of fish. |
| Date | 22:30:38, October 23, 2009 CET | From | SDLP/ Caillea Vinstri Bandalag | To | Debating the Biological and Chemical Weapons Ban |
| Message | No, it is the same logic. Your party argues that it is prudent to have the legal option to use something if it may never be used, regardless of the morality of it. The SDLP, and we hope we do not assume to much in saying so, feel that the use of WMD in any circumstances is an immoral act. Also, internationalism is indeed the proper solution. Even if Egelion is not able to prohibit other nations from using and spreading WMDs, alliances and treaties can be drawn up that makes it nonetheless undesirable to attack Egelion. For example, an attack on Egelion is essentiall an attack on all of Keris itself due to our mutual defense pact with Keris's other nations |
| Date | 22:31:24, October 23, 2009 CET | From | SDLP/ Caillea Vinstri Bandalag | To | Debating the Biological and Chemical Weapons Ban |
| Message | The SDLP intended to imply that the DSPE also feels that the use of WMDs is immoral in all circumstances |
| Date | 22:48:10, October 23, 2009 CET | From | SDLP/ Caillea Vinstri Bandalag | To | Debating the Biological and Chemical Weapons Ban |
| Message | The SDLP also moves that this bill be brought to a vote as it seems obvious that no consensus will be reached |
| Date | 10:30:02, October 24, 2009 CET | From | Democratic Socialist Party of Egelion | To | Debating the Biological and Chemical Weapons Ban |
| Message | The DSPE is in the same spirit with the SDLP. We therefor also call this bill to a vote. |
| Date | 11:24:02, October 24, 2009 CET | From | Christian Social People's Party | To | Debating the Biological and Chemical Weapons Ban |
| Message | Frankly you can debate morality all you like. The EPP is not, in truth, interested in such debates. We are interested in the action that is clearly in the best interests of the people of Egelion. The position of both the DSPE and SDLP is ludicrous idealism. |
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Voting
| Vote | Seats | ||
| yes | Total Seats: 244 | ||
| no | Total Seats: 356 | ||
| abstain | Total Seats: 0 |
| Random fact: Once approved, players should copy Cultural Protocols into a bill in the debate section of their nation page, under the title of "OOC: Cultural Protocols". This bill should include links to the passed Cultural Protocol bill and the Moderation approval. |
| Random quote: "Let us not seek to satisfy our thirst for freedom by drinking from the cup of bitterness and hatred." - Martin Luther King Jr. |