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Bill: Nomination of Evelyn Haenraats for the Office of Imperial Commissioner
Details
Submitted by[?]: Liberaldemokratische Allianz
Status[?]: passed
Votes: This bill is a resolution. It requires more yes votes than no votes. This bill will not pass any sooner than the deadline.
Voting deadline: October 2896
Description[?]:
| The Governor-General and Staatsminister hereby nominate Evelyn Haenraats as the the next Imperial Comissioner of the Eastern Territories. Evelyn Haenraats has served as a Judge on the Crownland of Hulstria Court of Appeals since 2892. From 2889 to 2892 she served as Chief Minister of Hulstria. Haenraats was first elected to the Hulstria Landtag in 2886. Immediately prior to her six years in electoral politics, she was a member of the Crown Prosection Service in her home crownland of Hulstria for fifteen years. From 2867 to 2871 she was an advisor for colonial crime and terrorism in the Office of Governor-General Cornelius Adlersflügel. Born in 2843 in Kien to Walter and Sandra Rooiakker, she attended the University of Kien for undergraduate studies. Her law degree was completed at the University of Graafsberg. Her experiences as a senior judge, crownland executive, and colonial policy expert make her the best choice to lead Hulstrian administration in the Eastern Territories. |
Proposals
Debate
These messages have been posted to debate on this bill:
| Date | 20:21:52, February 15, 2010 CET | From | Konstitutionelle Monarchie Partei | To | Debating the Nomination of Evelyn Haenraats for the Office of Imperial Commissioner |
| Message | She served as Chief Minister and as a Landtag member; was she an independent or a member of a political party? |
| Date | 22:39:38, February 15, 2010 CET | From | Liberaldemokratische Allianz | To | Debating the Nomination of Evelyn Haenraats for the Office of Imperial Commissioner |
| Message | A member of the CLA, but since her appointment as a Court of Appeals judge in 2892 she no longer is registered to any political party. |
| Date | 22:53:13, February 15, 2010 CET | From | Konstitutionelle Monarchie Partei | To | Debating the Nomination of Evelyn Haenraats for the Office of Imperial Commissioner |
| Message | The FAP applauds her achievements but would rather see someone who has had an apolitical past assume the position of Imperial Commissioner. |
| Date | 23:08:33, February 15, 2010 CET | From | Liberaldemokratische Allianz | To | Debating the Nomination of Evelyn Haenraats for the Office of Imperial Commissioner |
| Message | Numerous other Imperial Commissioners have been elected officials including Teresa Rothenberg and her immediate successor. Those two women, like Mrs. Haenraats, were no longer affiliated with any party when they were eventually nominated to be Imperial Commissioner. Excluding all people with a political post heavily undermines and restricts the talent pool for those with experience running public entities. All mayors, landtag members, Chief Ministers, etc are elected through partisan elections. The FAP's apolitical standard, which it has never insisted on before, would restrict Imperial Commissioners to retired military or police officers. Is the FAP now to insist on a new standard never before seen, one which would have precluded several of its nominees to the post? |
| Date | 03:19:34, February 16, 2010 CET | From | Konstitutionelle Monarchie Partei | To | Debating the Nomination of Evelyn Haenraats for the Office of Imperial Commissioner |
| Message | Perhaps the FAP should have used a different word than apolitical; what we meant by our previous statement is that we would rather see someone who has been independent and unaffiliated from a major political party during their careers, not just for the past year. As for Rothenberg's successor, Marie-Clarie Cordula, served as the Mayor of Graaffsberg yes but on an independent ticket for three terms. Our most previous Imperial Commissioner, Commander Wolfram, served his country in the Imperial Navy and held several leadership positions in the Imperial Navy, without having to be a member of a political party. The CLA has a record of appointing former members of their political party to office of Imperial Commissioner; some their nominees have served as deputy leaders or presidents of their party. The FAP maybe would like to see a change from that from the Christian Liberals and see that the office of Imperial Commissioner is completely independent from the mainstream politics in Kien; if Evelyn Haenraats is really committed towards being independent and can really cut ties to her party, then the FAP will vote in favor of her nomination (as we do find her career in law and as a judge to be very interesting) but we'd just like to see something different in the future. The FAP hopes the Christian Liberals can see where we're coming from on this. |
| Date | 04:27:42, February 16, 2010 CET | From | Liberaldemokratische Allianz | To | Debating the Nomination of Evelyn Haenraats for the Office of Imperial Commissioner |
| Message | Mrs. Cordula may have served as an independent, but to gain election she would have had to have been on the ticket as a member of a party. The nature of the Office of Imperial Commissioner requires someone with administrative and executive experience, and such experience cannot easily (or reasonably) developed without political experience. When a Christian Liberal has served as Governor-General, as one does now, the Governor-General appoints the person best qualified to serve as Imperial Commissioner. Where the FAP says that some of the nominees have been "deputy leaders or presidents of [the CLA]", the truth is being obfuscated. Those individuals were former Governors-General or Staatsministers who, before reaching that high office, already had even more extensive service as Ministers of Internal Affairs. They were appoint not because they happened to have been party leaders, but because they had unparalleled real experience as governmental leaders. Haenraats' appointment was fully consented to by the KHP Staatsminister. She will serve in the best tradition of independent Imperial Commissioners. Her nomination is not a departure from the past, nor is there any need for something "different in the future" unless the FAP wishes to hold all future nominees to a new standard heretofore never applied to an Imperial Commissioner. |
| Date | 05:01:27, February 16, 2010 CET | From | Konstitutionelle Monarchie Partei | To | Debating the Nomination of Evelyn Haenraats for the Office of Imperial Commissioner |
| Message | Of course they held the Ministry of Internal Affairs, what other party ever holds that office unless we had to go through an FA rotation, which was only established not too long ago. The fact remains they still held leadership positions in their party and that there is a record with CLA Governor-Generals to appoint people who were former members of their political party, rather than maybe Anja Bendtsen, who when appointed by Lukas Adenauer to become Imperial Commissioner she was still the deputy leader of the Christian Liberal Party! The same day she left her office at the CLA, she gained a new one as Imperial Commissioner. Yes, they had positions in government, though the CLA can not get away from the fact that Governor-Generals under the CLA banner continuously appoint people who were in their party. |
| Date | 05:20:50, February 16, 2010 CET | From | Liberaldemokratische Allianz | To | Debating the Nomination of Evelyn Haenraats for the Office of Imperial Commissioner |
| Message | Where was the FAP's concerns when Wenzeslaus von Hortensiengau, a former KHP Staatsminister, was nominated for Imperial Commissioner? Again the FAP is being selective with the historical record - Anja Bendtsen was appointed indeed the deputy leader of the Christian Liberals, but she was also the serving Staatsminister. She was appointed Imperial Commissioner because of her service as Staatsminister, not party leadership. And let us not forget that she was appointed Imperial Commissioner 122 years ago, another time and another era. However, that is not part of this debate. Evelyn Haenraats is a strongly qualified candidate who brings real civilian executive, legislative, and judicial experience to the job of government administrator of the Imperial Crownlands' territorial possessions. Her involvement in electoral politics, which has only spanned six years of her entire professional life, should in no way prevent the Eastern Territories from having such a qualified administrator serve as its head. |
| Date | 09:31:57, February 16, 2010 CET | From | Imperial Order of the Knights Illuminate | To | Debating the Nomination of Evelyn Haenraats for the Office of Imperial Commissioner |
| Message | Is this our Empire? Where is it? |
| Date | 09:47:52, February 16, 2010 CET | From | Verfassungs Unabhängigkeit Partei | To | Debating the Nomination of Evelyn Haenraats for the Office of Imperial Commissioner |
| Message | to the Knights Illuminate: http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/particracy/images/8/85/GreaterHulstria.png the VUP can see where the FAP is going, but must agree with the CLA that the candidate is in fact the best qualified. Maybe it is a good idea to add this standard, say, "Any Newly elected Imperial Commissioner must cut all his ties to former political parties"? In that way we do not cut out the pool of skills and we make sure that party intrests are no longer in play. |
| Date | 23:49:24, February 16, 2010 CET | From | Liberaldemokratische Allianz | To | Debating the Nomination of Evelyn Haenraats for the Office of Imperial Commissioner |
| Message | Evelyn Haenraats has cut all ties with political parties since her appointment as a judge in 2892. She has been unaffiliated with any party for the past three years. |
| Date | 08:39:56, February 17, 2010 CET | From | Konstitutionelle Monarchie Partei | To | Debating the Nomination of Evelyn Haenraats for the Office of Imperial Commissioner |
| Message | Yet that doesn't erase the fact she was connected to a political party, raising the question if she has truly cut ties with the Christliche Liberalen Allianz so that she may properly execute the duties of the Imperial Commissioner by placing her nation first rather than party interests. The FAP believes as well that a new standard should be put into place concerning Imperial Commissioner nominees who have had involvement in a political party; "Any Imperial Commissioner nominee who has had a career with a major political party shall not be allowed to be considered for the position for at least 6-10 years following their retirement from that political party" 6-10 years is enough time for someone to distance themselves from their party following their retirement/leave and to be truly unaffiliated with their former party friends. |
| Date | 08:57:42, February 17, 2010 CET | From | Liberaldemokratische Allianz | To | Debating the Nomination of Evelyn Haenraats for the Office of Imperial Commissioner |
| Message | The FAP did not have an issue with Teresa Rothenberg when she was nominated once it was made clear that she would sever political ties once she became Imperial Commissioner. Her performance in that office was universally established to be exemplary, but of such a non-partisan character that she was later chosen by all of the Diet's mainstream parties to become the Imperial Crownlands' first and only non-partisan Governor-General. A blanket rule is not necessary. The Governor-Diet and Staatsminister should be able to nominate anyone they see as qualified and of proper moral and political character. The parties in the Diet then vote on the merits of the nominee. Blanket rules, and false assumptions based on hypotheticals that have never and will never happen should not be codified. According to the FAP's own suggested rule, as noted above, Hulstria would have never seen Teresa Rothenberg. The only questions that the parties should be judging nominees are should be: 1) Would this person satisfactorily execute the Office of Imperial Commissioner as established in the Colonial Affairs Act and Eastern Territories Reorganization Act? 2) Is this person of sound mind, good character, and adequate experience? Parties can vote against a candidate if that candidate does not fulfill their criteria or if they honesty believe that the nominee cannot satisfactorily serve as Imperial Commissioner - but the Governor-General, Staatsminister, and Diet should not be forbidden to look at any highly qualified individual because they have not met an arbitrary deadline. |
| Date | 22:05:23, February 17, 2010 CET | From | Konstitutionelle Monarchie Partei | To | Debating the Nomination of Evelyn Haenraats for the Office of Imperial Commissioner |
| Message | She was chosen because she had nothing to gain from becoming Governor-General. Rothenberg was 75 years old at the time. Even without her, we would've found someone else to lead that transitional government. There is nothing wrong in questioning either if a nominee still has connections to a political party. If our Empire is going to be administered by someone, I'd rather see that person serve on behalf of the country and Emperor, not their former leaders in the Imperial Diet. Asking if the nominee still has party loyalty, then that directly fits into your second question there about if that person is of sound mind; well, if they still have party loyalty and as a result still continues to serve on behalf of party interests, then obviously their mind isn't that sound to lead the office of IC is it? Highly qualified individual or not, there must be a measure be put into place that will make sure party interests are not being served when an Imperial Commissioner is in office. The Imperial Commissioner must in the strictest sense be unaffiliated and independent from the Kien political specturm once he or she assume thats position, if not the Imperial Commissioner will just become another position that will be used to buff up the portfolio of that person or that party; if a pledge must be said before they sit in the office of the IC where they will put the interests of the Empire first before they own party ideology or they will not lobby or campaign on behalf of their party once they are and once they are done being IC, to prevent the Imperial Commissioner from becoming another political office and serving the interests of party, then we should implement such measures. |
| Date | 14:55:19, February 18, 2010 CET | From | Christliche Zentrumspartei (CDV) | To | Debating the Nomination of Evelyn Haenraats for the Office of Imperial Commissioner |
| Message | Viktor Lochmann - CZP-CDV Imperial Diet Leader I would hope that even in Kien, politicians would put country before party, and I have seen that most of them sincerely do. Then what is the problem with appointing a qualified Christian Democrat Imperial Commissioner? After all Hanraets did serve her Crownland (Hulstria) faithfully, and I would even say that to even have qualified to be Chief Minister she should put that before her country, just as all politicians are expected to. |
| Date | 00:55:21, February 19, 2010 CET | From | Konstitutionelle Monarchie Partei | To | Debating the Nomination of Evelyn Haenraats for the Office of Imperial Commissioner |
| Message | A qualified Christian Democrat Imperial Commissioner? I thought she was independent.... |
| Date | 01:01:36, February 19, 2010 CET | From | Liberaldemokratische Allianz | To | Debating the Nomination of Evelyn Haenraats for the Office of Imperial Commissioner |
| Message | Haenraats has been unaffiliated with any political party for more than 4 years now. However, what I believe the CZP may have been saying, is that the FAP seems to have a problem with a former CDV member serving as Imperial Commissioner when the FAP has not only voted for, but nominated, a former KHP Staatsminister and a mayor who ran on the ballot under the FAP's banner. The FAP seems to be saying that those people could but their political beliefs aside and not serve "the interests of party" before nation, but that someone formerly aligned with the CDV is never able to put country before party. That is the insulting and unfounded charge the FAP has made and that, semantics aside, is what the CZP is illustrating. |
| Date | 01:08:22, February 19, 2010 CET | From | Kaiserliche Hulsterreichische Partei | To | Debating the Nomination of Evelyn Haenraats for the Office of Imperial Commissioner |
| Message | And we note that the CLA voted against the Wenzeslaus von Hortensiengau, without any explanation at the time, talk about insulting. |
| Date | 01:19:39, February 19, 2010 CET | From | Konstitutionelle Monarchie Partei | To | Debating the Nomination of Evelyn Haenraats for the Office of Imperial Commissioner |
| Message | Wenzeslaus von Hortensiengau was the only person on record to be appointed to the office of Imperial Commissioner who had a past with a political party by a FAP Governor-General. He served the Empire well and did his job accordingly. Other than the Count of Hortensiengau, every other Imperial Commissioner appointed by a FAP Governor-General has either served in the military or police. As for that "mayor who ran on the ballot under the FAP's banner", I assume the Liberals are speaking of Marie-Clarie Cordula; she did not run "under the FAP banner" when she served as the Mayor of Graaffsberg, she ran on an independent ticket. My opposition is not about your precious CDV grouping or if I think any of your people are good enough etc, so on and so forth, my opposition is to the trend created by Christian Liberal GGs who only appoint people who have been connected to their political party, a trend the FAP is fed up with. We understand maybe appointing one person to IC who has had a past with a party but the CLA has put forward now four different Imperial Commissioners who have had ties to their party, that is harrowing. |
| Date | 03:31:55, February 19, 2010 CET | From | Liberaldemokratische Allianz | To | Debating the Nomination of Evelyn Haenraats for the Office of Imperial Commissioner |
| Message | The CLA voted against the nomination of Wenzeslaus von Hortensiengau because his was one of many nominations done by the FAP that was pushed through the Diet without any time for debate or discussion. The CLA voted against all of those nominees precisely for that reason - the FAP nominated the individual and within that month or one additional month the nomination was brought for a vote. There was no debate. There was no time to independently establish the qualifications of the individual. The FAP was presenting their candidate for a rubber stamp from the Diet. Had there been proper debate the CLA would have most certainly voted for the confirmation of Wenzeslaus von Hortensiengau. It was only because of the FAP's attitude toward the process, which it slowly changed, that we voted against. The CLA's vote was one of protest; one of a party unable to vote for a candidate because there was no opportunity for question or debate. Independents cannot be elected outside of a party ticket. Which four different Imperial Commissioners? You'd have to be including appointees before the process was changed - reaching back hundreds of years. You cannot compare the office as it existed before the reforms to that which existed after. To do otherwise is to be disingenuous. However, we only need to look at much more (comparatively) recent history to see the FAP's history of ramming through nominations without debate. All of the CLA's IC nominees under the current law were given ample opportunity for debate. Parties were given ample time to think, discuss, and question; and it was after that deliberative process that parties made their decisions independently. The CLA nominates individuals who have a background that would lead them to be effective administrators, to fully serve as Imperial Commissioner. The nomination of military officers with no history or record of government administration, with no experience in civilian government, is no different. The FAP by and large nominates individuals to serve as Imperial Commissioner who are much more qualified to be the Imperial Superintendent of the Eastern Territories Police. The two individuals the FAP has nominated that were more qualified to serve as Commissioner and not a police superintendent were Wenzeslaus von Hortensiengau and Marie-Clarie Cordula. Two politicians. The FAP is baselessly attacking the Christian Liberals. Imperial Commissioners nominated by all parties have all served with identical levels of professionalism and will continue to do so. |
| Date | 05:26:55, February 19, 2010 CET | From | Konstitutionelle Monarchie Partei | To | Debating the Nomination of Evelyn Haenraats for the Office of Imperial Commissioner |
| Message | So only politicians can effectively run the office of Imperial Commissioner according to the Christian Liberals. Military commanders or police leaders can not lead this office because they are not politicians? As for the position of the Imperial Superintendent of the Eastern Territories Police, well, isn't that position under the control of the Ministry of Internal Affairs and under the control of the Ministry of Internal Affairs only? The Internal Affairs Ministry can nominate whomever they want, without a vote from the Diet or a debate. How would that exactly work? If I, or anyone else, nominates a former military commander, lets say someone who served as Chief of the Imperial Air Force or Commander of the Imperial Submarine Fleet, then clearly, according the the CLA's standards, they would be more fitting as Imperial Superintendent since they are not a politician. Would the CLA then appoint that person as the Imperial Superintendent of the Eastern Territories Police? |
| Date | 05:48:13, February 19, 2010 CET | From | Liberaldemokratische Allianz | To | Debating the Nomination of Evelyn Haenraats for the Office of Imperial Commissioner |
| Message | That was not what was said - the point was that military commanders and police leaders, while having invaluable expertise and experience in their fields, do not necessarily have (civilian) administrative and governing experience. Being a top navy admiral and being the chief executive in charge of running all of the empire's colonies is quite a leap. While that admiral may prove himself to be effective, a person who has been a Chief Minister, central government Minister, etc. may have more directly relevant and practical experience. The point made about the FAP's nominees, is that most of them have qualifications more naturally suited to being Imperial Superintendent, not Imperial Commissioner. Their experiences and skill sets reflect candidates to head the law enforcement bureaucracy in the territories - not all government and administration in the territories. All parties can suggest to the Minister of Internal Affairs individuals they feel particularly qualified to serve as Imperial Superintendent. Imperial Superintendents have been former Chiefs of Crownland Police Departments, Deputy Directors of the National Police Bureau, Deputy Imperial Superintendents, or the Head of the Special Anti-Terrorism Unit of the Eastern Territories Imperial Police Service. If a military commander has relevant experience in law enforcement (JAG, military police, etc) then they would be a competitive candidate when measured up against the career law enforcement officers that are usually considered for the post. |
| Date | 13:12:59, February 19, 2010 CET | From | Christliche Zentrumspartei (CDV) | To | Debating the Nomination of Evelyn Haenraats for the Office of Imperial Commissioner |
| Message | In my opinion, appointing a military or police officer to the Commissionership of the Eastern Territories might even suggest the attitude that some are proposing: they may not want the Eastern Territories to do anything else than be our colonies, serving us. However, as rulers of those lands, the Hulstrians have an obligation to God to care for the people living there, requiring administrative and economic capabilities rather than military and strategic capacities. Therefore, in times of peace, the appointment of a former Chief Minister to the Commissionership is preferable to a former Admiral, General or Superintendent. In times of war or rebellion, perhaps we'd be having a different discussion, but for our duty to the Empire and the people of our Colonies, we much prefer a capable politician with a risk of bias to a general who is better suited to enforce the law, rather than represent the legitimate authority of His Imperial Majesty. |
| Date | 21:28:46, February 19, 2010 CET | From | Verfassungs Unabhängigkeit Partei | To | Debating the Nomination of Evelyn Haenraats for the Office of Imperial Commissioner |
| Message | the VUP vote in favor in terms if the to-be Imperial Commissioner is to cut all ties with the CLA. (if any still exist) |
| Date | 22:38:53, February 19, 2010 CET | From | Liberaldemokratische Allianz | To | Debating the Nomination of Evelyn Haenraats for the Office of Imperial Commissioner |
| Message | Haenraats has had no ties to any party for more than four years. |
| Date | 20:36:18, February 23, 2010 CET | From | Liberaldemokratische Allianz | To | Debating the Nomination of Evelyn Haenraats for the Office of Imperial Commissioner |
| Message | Took office October 2896. |
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Voting
| Vote | Seats | |||
| yes |
Total Seats: 256 | |||
| no | Total Seats: 227 | |||
| abstain | Total Seats: 242 |
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