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Bill: OOC: The Great Luthori Culture and National Identity Discussion
Details
Submitted by[?]: Constitutionalist Imperial League (IA)
Status[?]: passed
Votes: This bill is a resolution. It requires more yes votes than no votes. This bill will not pass any sooner than the deadline.
Voting deadline: May 3010
Description[?]:
| 1. FOREWORD The Holy Luthori Empire is an aristocratic monarchy which is based on a combination of the British Empire in the middle of the 19th century and the Holy Roman Empire in the 15th century. To a far lesser extent, it is also influenced by the 1920s to 1950s United States. 2. ETHNICITY The dominant ethnicity in Luthori is that of the ethnic Luthorians. They are a cross between real life Englishmen and Germans (with general Nordic influence) and are definitely Anglo-Saxon. Naturally, ethnicity varies from locality to locality but the general common Luthorian could be considered to be close to 65% English and 35% German. The Germanic side tends to be more prominent in Utagia (which even has Swedish influences) and Yodukan while the English side is more prominent in Geharon and Orange. Because of a very important and historic connection to Alduria, some Luthorians also have French sounding names, although they do not have French ethnic background. 3. CULTURE & VALUES a) Luthori has an extremely ancient background as an aristocratic monarchy, stretching back to the 14th century. The aristocracy has always had a strong and powerful place in society which to a large extent it retains today. Historically the Emperor was often overshadowed by the nobles and the commons. However, starting with the House of Orange and Emperor William III in the 26th century, accentuated by Emperor Henry I and Maximilian III, the Emperor has increasingly has real executive power. Regardless of political standing, the Emperor has since its founding in the 22th century, always been the supreme head of the Lutheran Church of Luthori and thus he has had considerable religious authority. The monarchy is an old and cherished institution and unites Luthorians to the point that government coalitions are formed based on social or economical ideology, but on support for the monarch. b) Luthori is a profoundly religious society with one of the lowest percentages of atheists in the world. The huge majority of the population is part of the Church of Luthori and is very religious, attending religious services often and living according to strict Lutheran morality. The government has long taken an active role in promoting Lutheranism and Lutheran morality. Despite this strong support for the Church of Luthori, religious freedom has almost always been granted to other monotheistic religions and often granted to all religions. Catholicism has had a difficult relationship with the C of L, with Terran Catholicism being the only legitimate branch according to the government. Selucian Catholicism and the Luthorian Catholic Church are both classified as cults. c) Due to this fusion of Lutheran morality and a strong support for the system of aristocratic monarchy, the Luthorian people are on the whole much more socially conservative than other people. Attitudes and morals that might be considered socially acceptable and traditionalist in many other countries are inadmissible in Luthori, to the point that Luthorians could well be considered reactionaries by some of the more progressive countries in the world. The Luthorian people furthermore are very formal, reserved and rational and are in general neither sentimental nor emotional and capable of extreme discipline, which to a large extent explains their military prowesses. This is furthermore enhanced by the belief in a strongly stratified society. While social mobility is reasonably high, there are strong class distinctions, between aristocrats and commoners and between the two groups themselves and until one has moved into another class, one tends to stick to his own class. d) Luthori possesses one of the world's largest colonial Empires which stretches across several continents. This was spurred by a combination of the feeling that Luthori, as the world's foremost Christian monarchy, must spread both civilization and Lutheranism to the barbaric corners of the world. This is largely caused by the wish to regain former glory associated with the time when Luthori ruled most of Dovani. There is no taboo on racism in Luthorian society and many foreigners are openly deemed inferior to Luthorians and to Westerners in general, although this has not prevented strong foreign relations, as it is kept largely private. Finally, it is important to state that ethnic Luthorians within the Empire are considered superior to foreigners. This distinction also applies within the colonies where there ia also a large ethnic Luthorian majority. e) Luthori has an extreme hostility to both communism and socialism, which are often depicted as one and the same and openly vilified in all areas of public life. Instead, the general consensus is that three ideologies are permissible, conservatism , liberalism and social-democracy. These distinctions are most important on an economic point of view, although Luthorian liberals do tend to be less socially conservatives than both conservatives and social-democrats. These three ideologies are acceptable because they combine Luthorian values with a market economy. Indeed, the hatred of socialism makes capitalism the only widely accepted economic system, although social-democrats tend to push for more regulation and public spending while conservatives support some forms of protectionism and liberals support the free market. |
Proposals
Debate
These messages have been posted to debate on this bill:
| Date | 22:03:23, September 26, 2010 CET | From | Constitutionalist Imperial League (IA) | To | Debating the OOC: The Great Luthori Culture and National Identity Discussion |
| Message | OOC: I'm doing some research in Luthori culture (which is more complex than it originally seems). Once that's done, I'll add a proper description and we can pass this bill. |
| Date | 06:09:21, September 27, 2010 CET | From | Parti Imperial du Peuple (IA) | To | Debating the OOC: The Great Luthori Culture and National Identity Discussion |
| Message | OOC: You have no idea what gates of hell you have just opened. I warn you my friend, there is a reason why I even never touched this issue, for it is far to complex to really touch. |
| Date | 07:11:59, September 27, 2010 CET | From | Constitutionalist Imperial League (IA) | To | Debating the OOC: The Great Luthori Culture and National Identity Discussion |
| Message | OOC: Oh I am just starting to realize. Obviously we'll be sure to have anything written here approved by everyone, although especially yourself Matthus, the EAP and CPP, since you are the three most senior parties. |
| Date | 09:11:26, September 27, 2010 CET | From | Liberal Alliance | To | Debating the OOC: The Great Luthori Culture and National Identity Discussion |
| Message | OOC: It'll get hard but let's try! |
| Date | 17:02:30, September 27, 2010 CET | From | Constitutionalist Imperial League (IA) | To | Debating the OOC: The Great Luthori Culture and National Identity Discussion |
| Message | OOC: All right, so lets start and Mathus, EAP and CPP, dont hesitate to correct or rip apart anything I say. 1.Ethnicity & RL First, Luthori's real life country influences are the British Empire at the time of Queen Victoria and the 15th century Holy Roman Empire. Thus, Luthorians would roughly be of mixed English and German ethnicity. However, due to our very long relationship with Alduria, a number of French names should also be expected. Luthorian last names can thus vary from "von Lewenheusen" to "Noventa" to "Laap" and "Lacroix". To that, I think we have to add, to a much smaller extent, 1920s to 1950s America as an influence, notably where huge metropolises, industrial quarters, immense highways and art deco, neo-Gothic and neo-Classical skyscrapers are considered. Also, over 95% of Luthori's population is of Luthorian ethnicity (indicating this English and German blend). The remainder is a largish 3%-4% Hulstrian minority and a tiny immigrant population. Now, that's that for ethnicity 2. Culture, Values & National Identity Now comes the hard part. I think one way we could work would be to identify a number of traits that describe the Luthorian people in general, followed by a justification. We should take into account the fact that not all Luthorians think the same way, but we're talking about Luthori as opposed to other countries. I'll start with a few traits (in capital letters): Luthori is MONARCHIST, its the mother of all monarchies and for a long time has been the most powerful and largest Terran monarchy. Furthermore, the Emperor has ruled almost continuously for some 800 years, apart from the civil wars and has had considerable power and influence in national governance and politics. Luthori is RELIGIOUS, this is not your modern RL secular democracy, atheists account for maybe 1% of the population, there is a very strong powerful state Church whose influence is far spreading. Luthori is TRADITIONALIST/CONSERVATIVE, now in politics, it has been stated and stated again that three ideologies, social-democracy, liberalism and conservatism are to be promoted, but regardless of politics, the Luthorian people are much more traditionalist and socially conservative than other people, this is evidence by the large support given to the "Conservative Proclamation" and the fact that for hundreds of years, the government was historically dominated by socially conservative parties (RAP, BCD, Solidarity, NPL). One must remember that Luthori has not had any 1960s, no hippie movement, no sexual liberation, feminist or civil rights movements, no world wars. What it does have are a strong monarchy and belief in the preservation of the Social Order and system of nobility, as well as a very strong and theologically very conservative Lutheran Church. Luthori is COLONIALIST/IMPERIALIST, now this is an important one, especially because it has historically been supported by everyone (with only a few rare exceptions). Luthori is dedicated to its huge overseas Empire and wants to spread wherever possible, bringing civilization and Christianity to the natives. Naturally, this ties to the fact that Luthori has a huge navy and is a military great power. Luthori is ENTREPRENEURIAL, much like in the British Empire, there is in Luthori a majority opinion that some sort of market economy is preferable to a state controlled economy. Some of us desire welfare, public services and regulations but this is not Ikdraon or the Soviet Union. Luthori is FORMAL/STRATIFIED, these two might not fit in perfectly together but they kind of relate the same general feeling. Like both Victorian Britain and the HRE, Luthori is a formal society, Luthorians keep a "stiff upper lip" and dress in black suits (with top hats ;) and Luthori has strong societal divisions, working class, middle class, entrepreneurial class, capitalist class, merchant nobles, landed nobles, etc. So, these are a few suggestions, what do you all think of them? |
| Date | 17:02:53, September 27, 2010 CET | From | Constitutionalist Imperial League (IA) | To | Debating the OOC: The Great Luthori Culture and National Identity Discussion |
| Message | ADDENDUM: the traits I posted are not in order of importance, they are all important. |
| Date | 17:34:02, September 27, 2010 CET | From | Parti Imperial du Peuple (IA) | To | Debating the OOC: The Great Luthori Culture and National Identity Discussion |
| Message | Most looks good to me, a few things I would mention would be: While Religious, it is not mandatory. The majority support the church, but Luthori has evolved enough to not force its people to follow it. Also, if I am remembering right, there has been several "Terran Wars", which is the reason why the Empire was not what it used to be until after the rule of Richard and the rise of the great Emperors. On that note also, the Emperors have only really been "powerful" since the time of Henry I. Before that the Viceroys or even the Prince/Princess Regents held the power in the empire. Luthori seemed to be more democratic and ruled by more of the commoners until the "Commoner Emperor and Empress" Philippe II and Mary I took the thrones. The influence of Alduria and the "People's Will" along with the Neo-Imperial Movement, kind of had a duel effect on Luthori. In Alduria it had other effects, but here it basically expanded the democratic aspects of the government (governors ruling the Duchies and such, instead of appointed nobles by the Viceroy and so) while at the same time creating a feeling support for the nobility from the commoners. By the time of Henry I, this allowed for a complete explosion of the Neo-Imperial Movement, and basically had the people supporting their own powers in a democratic government, and thus increasing the power of the nobility. This is a little confusing, but basically the "People's Will" ideology came into full blossom at this time. Which stated that the nobles and Emperor rule by the commoners' will, and thus while the commoners may be giving more power to the nobility, which was increasing becoming more and more open (however, those who were at the top and still are at the top do have it more by birth, but that is a minor detail), the nobility in the end answer to the commoners who can if they ever wish to do so bring in the nobility and their powers. So in conclusion, there have been several movements per say, if you look on the wiki monarchy page you will see there has been change due to a Constitutional Monarchy being founded in the 1800s, but that it has been somewhat mixed. So while there is no Hippie movement, there has been some more left leaning and some right leaning movements in the history. What you wish to call them is up to you. That part above is only the last 500 years so the rest is kind of whatever you wish to make it. However, Luthori did lose her Empire for a while either by rebellion or just the rise of democracies, before the Pan-Terran Neo-monarchist Movement began. |
| Date | 19:50:18, September 27, 2010 CET | From | Constitutionalist Imperial League (IA) | To | Debating the OOC: The Great Luthori Culture and National Identity Discussion |
| Message | Indeed, a very important point to be made is that up to the Emperors of House Orange-Villayn, first William and the Philippe II and Mary I, the Emperors were largely figureheads, eclipsed by Viceroys and Princes Regent. However, this completely reversed with Emperor Henry I. He was quite a man and although legislatively not much changed he had considerable power and influence. Then from Maximilian III and the 2700s onwards, the actual power of the Emperor and the nobility (his prime support) expanded greatly to the point where we are now where both the Emperor and Privy Council both have tremendous executive power. |
| Date | 23:56:49, September 27, 2010 CET | From | Liberal Alliance | To | Debating the OOC: The Great Luthori Culture and National Identity Discussion |
| Message | OOC: It's very important to tell that the catholics were very strong before the civil war (perhaps well around 15-20% of the population) but immigrated after their disastrous defeat. Now, the catholics represent perhaps 2-3% of the population. I don't know the distribution of hich church, middle church and low church/evangelical sympathizers. Former RAP and current EAP has always had the high church sympathizers. Do you have any further details? |
| Date | 00:01:41, September 28, 2010 CET | From | Liberal Alliance | To | Debating the OOC: The Great Luthori Culture and National Identity Discussion |
| Message | OOC: When I resided with the House of Utagia and founded the castle and city of Utagia, it pointed out the "german" population of Utagia which had been an agreement between my RAP and the BCD for houndreds of years. |
| Date | 17:08:15, September 28, 2010 CET | From | Constitutionalist Imperial League (IA) | To | Debating the OOC: The Great Luthori Culture and National Identity Discussion |
| Message | OOC: We also have to distinguish between the different types of Catholics. There were in the past both Terran Catholics, who accepted to side with the Church of Luthori (and joined the High Church) and members of the Luthorian Catholic Church, many of whom have left because of a unfavorable regime and occasional persecutions. Information on the Church of Luthori has been extremely vague for a long time, especially since Yorky left (dixit Duke Matthus). I was going to eventually do some work on the Church but one thing that has come up often is that the theological and ritual differences between the High and Low churches has slowly eroded over the centuries and that today both practice this conservative form of Lutheranism. About the German population of Utagia. Would you (EAP) prefer for us to include them as a separate ethnic group, perhaps related to Hulstrians? I personally feel that it that it is enough to call them Luthorians since we specify that ethnic Luthorians can be both English, German or mixed. We can also specify that many German leaning Luthorians live in Utagia. |
| Date | 18:30:16, September 28, 2010 CET | From | Parti Imperial du Peuple (IA) | To | Debating the OOC: The Great Luthori Culture and National Identity Discussion |
| Message | OOC: We could say that many of the Hulstrians are decendent of the Utagia, due to the Emperor at the time being only third since the Agathionian Rebellion against the Utagiaian Dynasty. It had only been 68 years since the war. So it could be said that many left for the "New World" in order to have more freedom and safety away from a Dynasty that was still very young. Not to mention the fact that at this time the Empie was still quite feudal, however the Agathionian Dynatsy would begin to change it into a more centralized state. When I did the section on the monarchs, I had only what Yorky had left about the past. From what I could get, the Utagian Dynasty was a Feudal monarchy, with the Agathionian being the one that slowly over many years centralized the state. |
| Date | 18:53:35, September 29, 2010 CET | From | Liberal Alliance | To | Debating the OOC: The Great Luthori Culture and National Identity Discussion |
| Message | OOC: I sounds good. But the german influenced Utagian culture was founded well over 500 years ago. Even a slight tendence of swedish culture has been present in Utagia. (Klingspor, Wallenberg etc). But the german culture is of course Luthorian and not german. |
| Date | 22:21:22, September 29, 2010 CET | From | Constitutionalist Imperial League (IA) | To | Debating the OOC: The Great Luthori Culture and National Identity Discussion |
| Message | OOC: Alright, well now that we have a general idea, I'll amend the description to refer to what we have discussed. You can then tell me what you think of it. |
| Date | 12:55:19, September 30, 2010 CET | From | Constitutionalist Imperial League (IA) | To | Debating the OOC: The Great Luthori Culture and National Identity Discussion |
| Message | OOC: Okay, description updated. |
| Date | 13:54:43, October 01, 2010 CET | From | Constitutionalist Imperial League (IA) | To | Debating the OOC: The Great Luthori Culture and National Identity Discussion |
| Message | OOC: I'll leave this up for another day. If there are no additional comments by then, I'll assume consent and move to vote. Consensus would be nice for this so please do voice any opinion you have on this (I'm talking to you WCP ;). |
| Date | 04:06:44, October 02, 2010 CET | From | Parti Imperial du Peuple (IA) | To | Debating the OOC: The Great Luthori Culture and National Identity Discussion |
| Message | OOC: I would acturally say Orange is the "most" British that is where the current line is from. just noticed that it was not mention. However, that is minor details. |
| Date | 04:12:43, October 02, 2010 CET | From | Parti Imperial du Peuple (IA) | To | Debating the OOC: The Great Luthori Culture and National Identity Discussion |
| Message | OOC: Also, I would mention that the reason for the Neo-Colonial/Neo Imperial Movement was the wish to return to the former glory when they ruled Dovian and so on. Also, I would mention colonial structure and how the citizens are leveled. I mean is a citizen of the Namvietian Empire = to a Luthorian? (Indian = British)? |
| Date | 21:07:36, October 04, 2010 CET | From | Constitutionalist Imperial League (IA) | To | Debating the OOC: The Great Luthori Culture and National Identity Discussion |
| Message | OOC: The support is very much appreciated WCP :D |
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Voting
| Vote | Seats | ||||
| yes |
Total Seats: 145 | ||||
| no | Total Seats: 0 | ||||
| abstain |
Total Seats: 56 |
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