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Bill: Population Growth Discouragement Bill
Details
Submitted by[?]: National Centrist Party
Status[?]: passed
Votes: This is an ordinary bill. It requires more yes votes than no votes. This bill will not pass any sooner than the deadline.
Voting deadline: June 2048
Description[?]:
| It is hereby proposed that the government offer free contraceptives to the populace and encourage abortions. These will help avoid the problems of famine, poverty, and abandoned/unwanted children. |
Proposals
Article 1
Proposal[?] to change Policy on the legality of abortions
Old value:: Abortion is allowed during the first trimester.
Current: Abortion is allowed during the first and second trimesters.
Proposed: Abortion is allowed during the entire course of the pregnancy.
Article 2
Proposal[?] to change Government policy on subsidising contraception.
Old value:: The government subsidises a considerable discount for contraceptives.
Current: The government does not supply free or discounted contraceptives.
Proposed: The government offers free contraceptives in pharmacies and public toilets.
Debate
These messages have been posted to debate on this bill:
| Date | 21:08:41, May 04, 2005 CET | From | Liberal Party for Equality | To | Debating the Population Growth Discouragement Bill |
| Message | I agree with the second proposal. the first i think goes far too far - if we are going to extend that law, let it only be to the second trimester. |
| Date | 00:15:09, May 05, 2005 CET | From | National Centrist Party | To | Debating the Population Growth Discouragement Bill |
| Message | I'm just forever worried about the effect on the economy if too many people flood the system. I want people to control themselves rather than us trying to control them. This bill encourages that attitude with both parts. |
| Date | 02:14:27, May 05, 2005 CET | From | People's Party | To | Debating the Population Growth Discouragement Bill |
| Message | Whats wrong with population growth? |
| Date | 02:47:18, May 05, 2005 CET | From | To | Debating the Population Growth Discouragement Bill |
| Message | We agree with the second proposal but not the first. |
| Date | 03:48:58, May 05, 2005 CET | From | National Centrist Party | To | Debating the Population Growth Discouragement Bill |
| Message | Population growth means more people who will be demanding food, and more people who will demand welfare, and more people who will need educated, and more people who will need jobs, and more people who will want higher wages, and more overcrowding, and more pollution, and more crime, and... Uncontrolled growth is terrible for the economy! It increases famine, unemployment, crime, and pollution all at once. We're a democratic party - we cannot take autocratic steps to slow population expansion. We must work with people. This will never stop population increases, but it could slow them if people make use of such things. |
| Date | 04:40:10, May 05, 2005 CET | From | People's Party | To | Debating the Population Growth Discouragement Bill |
| Message | Only if you have an unfree economy...America has a growing population but on all these things ...America has actually improved. Though our population has increased tremendously, and the number who farm have declined to some 6% percent, we still produce more food absolutely, and per capita than at any other time in history... |
| Date | 04:41:13, May 05, 2005 CET | From | People's Party | To | Debating the Population Growth Discouragement Bill |
| Message | Seriously population growth is a relic of socialism ..it has no serious basis in modern economics...its been really really discredited. |
| Date | 04:42:30, May 05, 2005 CET | From | People's Party | To | Debating the Population Growth Discouragement Bill |
| Message | Crime has been going down the last few years ...yet our population increases every year . It doesn't square with your theory.. |
| Date | 04:59:09, May 05, 2005 CET | From | National Centrist Party | To | Debating the Population Growth Discouragement Bill |
| Message | Ah, "America". I seem to have heard the word somewhere - a mockup history book once, if I recall correctly. The poor people of this country were afflicted with a dying economy due to a bad trade deficit, rampant government spending, and the maintainence of an army they couldn't truly support. That's nothing compared to the tendency of their morass of a government to over-legislate and wrap things in red tape, which was causing great frustration among their people and not to mention their businesses - which looked overseas increasingly. To compound the problem, the average savings rate was low and dropping, while the spending on consumer goods was rampant. Inflation continued to rise. The system was clearly unsustainable, but the author went no farther into their future. It's a shame - I'm curious how the collapse would've formed. We presently have no measure for crime, don't forget. Nor do we account for food production. The problems of overpopulation are intuitive, and until they are more thoroughly disproven than your quoting of unsubstantiated statistics, I won't recant. OOC: Please remember that in the context of this game, America doesn't exist. |
| Date | 05:13:46, May 05, 2005 CET | From | National Centrist Party | To | Debating the Population Growth Discouragement Bill |
| Message | OOC: I'm actually aware that population growth likely won't be coded to refer to these laws. In other words, as soon as the economy hits and government spending matters, I won't support free condoms anymore. The National Centrist Party will probably turn abruptly libertarian. |
| Date | 07:40:09, May 05, 2005 CET | From | Right Wing Liberals Party | To | Debating the Population Growth Discouragement Bill |
| Message | How can people want to Subsidise Contraception but not Farming? |
| Date | 13:39:53, May 05, 2005 CET | From | To | Debating the Population Growth Discouragement Bill |
| Message | "Seriously population growth is a relic of socialism ..it has no serious basis in modern economics...its been really really discredited." WTF? Seriously, this is just nonsense. Presumably you have not taken into account the population explosion that has accompanied every case of capitalist industrialisation that ever occured. |
| Date | 13:55:10, May 05, 2005 CET | From | Right Wing Liberals Party | To | Debating the Population Growth Discouragement Bill |
| Message | Yeah L P has a point. |
| Date | 16:14:22, May 05, 2005 CET | From | National Centrist Party | To | Debating the Population Growth Discouragement Bill |
| Message | Don't ask me what he's referring to. As far as I know, populations have been stabler under socialist governments than capitalist ones. For all that I think a socialist state doesn't do enough to motivate people, it doesn't encourage the massive consumption of resources that capitalism creates. |
| Date | 19:13:32, May 05, 2005 CET | From | To | Debating the Population Growth Discouragement Bill |
| Message | I agree with the second proposal but not the third. Abortion after the second trimester of pregnancy causes significant distress to both mother and baby. |
| Date | 19:48:00, May 05, 2005 CET | From | People's Party | To | Debating the Population Growth Discouragement Bill |
| Message | Grrr... you're forcing me to answer this in the middle of finals ..damn you people!!! Here check this out... http://www.cato.org/pubs/policy_report/cpr-20n2-1.html http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/5.02/ffsimon_pr.html |
| Date | 19:51:40, May 05, 2005 CET | From | People's Party | To | Debating the Population Growth Discouragement Bill |
| Message | Now lets walk through a thought experiment... Supposing I borrow money at a certain cost , and invest it to get a higher return...Do I not come out ahead?? The same applies to macroeconomies...as long as economic growth outpaces the growth of population (which it does)..we're ahead.. |
| Date | 19:55:04, May 05, 2005 CET | From | People's Party | To | Debating the Population Growth Discouragement Bill |
| Message | Again with running out of resources...lets think about this for a second .. Suppose the price of oil goes up , and stays up... That means the relative cost of substituting for something else becomes cheaper...it becomes easier to switch to other green stuff, or ride the bus instead. So demand goes down...alternatively those companies that develop good alternatives will make a killing .. |
| Date | 20:00:31, May 05, 2005 CET | From | People's Party | To | Debating the Population Growth Discouragement Bill |
| Message | So this nonsense of population crisis has no basis in economics ...here's some more data to help you along http://www.overpopulation.com/faq/health/mortality/life_expectancy/future.html |
| Date | 20:01:30, May 05, 2005 CET | From | People's Party | To | Debating the Population Growth Discouragement Bill |
| Message | More fun stuff... "In the United States, for example, between 1800 and 1980, the price of wheat plummeted while the population grew from 5 million to 226 million." |
| Date | 20:10:43, May 05, 2005 CET | From | People's Party | To | Debating the Population Growth Discouragement Bill |
| Message | Labour - Nice Theory...but it doesn't square qith any observed results.. Europe = "evil capitalist/ industrialised country" - population is falling.... America - population is growing, only because of immigration.. Russia -heavily industrialised ..population falling.. |
| Date | 20:15:54, May 05, 2005 CET | From | People's Party | To | Debating the Population Growth Discouragement Bill |
| Message | India - socialist development - population exploding... China - is the only exeption, excuse me, the only case that supports your theory... but only at first glance..the truth is many communist schemes like "thr Great Leap Forward" made the Chinese people worse off than they were before. Whats more enforcing birth control , in a country with a high preference for males led to widespread female infanticide.. And China will be the first country to grow old before it grow ..thanks to -you guessed it- birth control!! |
| Date | 20:20:45, May 05, 2005 CET | From | People's Party | To | Debating the Population Growth Discouragement Bill |
| Message | Another thing ..we have already linked our economy to America, so comparison with that country is fair... If you eliminate a basis for comparison ..then we can't tell whethere a policy works or not in the real world... |
| Date | 20:22:26, May 05, 2005 CET | From | People's Party | To | Debating the Population Growth Discouragement Bill |
| Message | and heres some fun stuff that happens when you make condoms free... http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/news/bizarre/042505_APsn_condoms.html |
| Date | 20:23:20, May 05, 2005 CET | From | People's Party | To | Debating the Population Growth Discouragement Bill |
| Message | http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/05/03/news/india.php |
| Date | 20:28:59, May 05, 2005 CET | From | People's Party | To | Debating the Population Growth Discouragement Bill |
| Message | Most of the condoms produced in India are paid for by the government and meant for free distribution by social service agencies. http://www.redstate.org/story/2005/4/26/224434/040 |
| Date | 23:07:54, May 05, 2005 CET | From | Liberal Party for Equality | To | Debating the Population Growth Discouragement Bill |
| Message | I think PP you are getting just a little carried away. we are not suggesting birth control to the extent that female infanticide will be sparked - only voluntary contraceptives. Could I steer this debate back around to the abortions bit? cos while i am not some rabid 'pro-lifer', I do think the entire course of the pregnancy is taking it too far, and for that reason we will have to oppose this bill, which is a pity seeing as i agree with the second part. others seem to have the same dillemma. maybe, NCP, you could create two seperate bills? p.s. I am probably merely a very irascible person, but PP's multiple posts would be much better off as only one or two... but as you are busy, i wont insist. |
| Date | 02:29:19, May 06, 2005 CET | From | National Centrist Party | To | Debating the Population Growth Discouragement Bill |
| Message | I agree, it's annoying to have the page stretched out by line after line of posts. From what I know of India, it's a very capitalist society while Russia is still very socialized. Europe is generally somewhat socialist as well. America, meanwhile, is growing both through immigration AND through new kids. By the same countries and data that you listed, I can prove that socialist governments slow population growth. Most likely, neither of us is right on this count - it's subjective. It depends how you define capitalist and socialist. Personally, I think that the powerful European welfare state is a good example of socialism in action, while the generally poor wages available in India are textbook examples of what happens at first in budding capitalist countries. Furthermore, I'm quite aware that the species is as a whole better off now than at any point in history - that doesn't mean we should suddenly chuck off all constraint. American consumerism is ultimately damaging the economy, the dollar is inflating faster than most investments can make profit, and the government has become a wasteful morass. We shouldn't be tied to any RL country. We should wait until the economy comes out to make that judgement. |
| Date | 07:47:18, May 06, 2005 CET | From | People's Party | To | Debating the Population Growth Discouragement Bill |
| Message | The reason i'm doing that is because everyone seemed to miss my posts on the tax bill, or get lost in the reading ..This breaks it up and makes it look smaller. What's more, India is a socialist country- from our standpoint Europe and Russia are a lot more capitalist. India has never had a sustained period of capitalism, except in the last ten years ...and that's the only time we made progress against poverty... |
| Date | 08:54:15, May 06, 2005 CET | From | Right Wing Liberals Party | To | Debating the Population Growth Discouragement Bill |
| Message | Full term Abortion will most likely kill the Mother! |
| Date | 08:55:01, May 06, 2005 CET | From | Right Wing Liberals Party | To | Debating the Population Growth Discouragement Bill |
| Message | Thats not true but it is very disturbing |
| Date | 10:36:27, May 06, 2005 CET | From | To | Debating the Population Growth Discouragement Bill |
| Message | PP: post industrial societies see a drop in population. Industrialising societies see a growth regardlless of political system. Condoms and the pill are also available free in the UK - not exactly a socialist country I would hope even the PP would agree. |
| Date | 13:25:48, May 06, 2005 CET | From | To | Debating the Population Growth Discouragement Bill |
| Message | Free contraception will not only slow poulation growth, but also improve the health of the nation, as condoms reduce the incidence of STIs. This, in the mid to long term reduces healthcare costs as less people need antibiotics, or worst case scenario, anti retroviral drugs. So yes, proposal 1 is good. However, I still state that allowing full term abortions is inhumane. It is basically infanticide to kill a baby (and yes, that is what it is) of 33 weeks or above at the very latest. So no, I cannot vote yes on this. |
| Date | 14:35:31, May 06, 2005 CET | From | To | Debating the Population Growth Discouragement Bill |
| Message | We agree entirely with the LP here. We could not support the first article but we totally support the second. |
| Date | 15:50:16, May 06, 2005 CET | From | National Centrist Party | To | Debating the Population Growth Discouragement Bill |
| Message | Here, I don't want to lose this argument. I'll take it to vote. Most of you are going to vote against it, that's agreed? Then do so - but at least that way we'll have a transcript left. Thanks for the lively debate, everyone. It was interesting. |
| Date | 15:51:44, May 06, 2005 CET | From | National Centrist Party | To | Debating the Population Growth Discouragement Bill |
| Message | Err, I meant - I don't want to lose the transcript* of this argument. I wanted the record left behind. Cancelling the bill seemed a shame. |
| Date | 21:16:29, May 06, 2005 CET | From | To | Debating the Population Growth Discouragement Bill |
| Message | OK NCP, but feel free to reintroduce the popular clause afterwards :) |
| Date | 08:03:44, May 07, 2005 CET | From | Right Wing Liberals Party | To | Debating the Population Growth Discouragement Bill |
| Message | Oh come on Ban Abortions the 'unwanted' children can be put into the Navy! |
| Date | 14:16:54, May 07, 2005 CET | From | To | Debating the Population Growth Discouragement Bill |
| Message | Lol, RWLP. Not solving popultation growth, but interesting! |
| Date | 14:17:52, May 07, 2005 CET | From | To | Debating the Population Growth Discouragement Bill |
| Message | Looks like this is going to go through then... |
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Voting
| Vote | Seats | |||
| yes | Total Seats: 104 | |||
| no | Total Seats: 49 | |||
| abstain |
Total Seats: 15 |
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