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Bill: Suspension of Adamson Nobility
Details
Submitted by[?]: Beluz Democratic Karavist Party
Status[?]: passed
Votes: This bill is a resolution. It requires more yes votes than no votes. This bill will not pass any sooner than the deadline.
Voting deadline: February 3312
Description[?]:
| The Adamsons have been moving around from country to country, and the sources, of their campaign funds, are questionable. The Adamsons are now in Luthori, the nation which shares the largest border with Beluzia. They came to Beluzia, tried to change the system to suit themselves and tried to deny the Commons of their political rights. For this reason, the Karav family believes they should be stripped of their nobility. Nobility can be restored if they stay in Beluzia for 20 consecutive years, or until the monarch of Luthori approves. We will discuss border control with Luthori to ensure the Adamsons aren't abusing the agreement between Beluzia and Luthori. If the Adamsons return, they are allowed to run for seats, but their candidate for the throne will not be recognized, and they, themselves, will be recognized as viceroyal instead of deserving full royalty. |
Proposals
Debate
These messages have been posted to debate on this bill:
| Date | 17:41:33, May 30, 2012 CET | From |  Luthorian Democrats | To | Debating the Suspension of Adamson Nobility |
| Message | OOC: As I have told SiggonKristov, the former leader of the Luthorian People's Party who was called Jack Adamson has nothing to do with the House of Adamson or the Count candidate Jack Adamson I. His leadership was hundreds of years ago before the House of Adamson was established as a political entity in Beluzia, but of course SiggonKristov doesn't accept this so whatever he says goes. I wont be coming back to Beluzia anyway. |
| Date | 17:49:34, May 30, 2012 CET | From | Beluz Democratic Karavist Party | To | Debating the Suspension of Adamson Nobility |
| Message | OOC: And if we were to use IC logic, what a strange coincidence that both parties, under the influence of some great dude named "Jack Adamson" are never active at the same time. When Jack Adamson is active in Beluzia, the LLP is inactive in Luthori. When the LLP is active in Luthori, Jack Adamson is inactive in Beluzia. We know for an OOC fact that they're linked through you, the player. You're saying they're not linked IC; we accept that. But if they're not linked IC, what a strange coincidence, it is, that they are never active at the same time. |
| Date | 18:42:26, May 30, 2012 CET | From | Luthorian Democrats | To | Debating the Suspension of Adamson Nobility |
| Message | OOC: I've already told you that my name is Jack Adamson and I used it a lot in the past on here. OOC game rules mean that IC players can't have two parties active at the same time, thats why they were never active at the same time. So stop saying that its a coincidence when the fact is that its impossible for them to be active at the same time. I have said so many times that they're in no way connected, and thats the case for both OOC and IC. I would greatly appreciate it if you would stop making a big deal out of this. You're making a generalisation on the basis of a name and probably a party description. If you want some sort of massive controversial RP over this then you're not getting one because they're not linked at all, I don't want them to be linked and I will continue to emphasize this. |
| Date | 19:05:23, May 30, 2012 CET | From | Beluz Democratic Karavist Party | To | Debating the Suspension of Adamson Nobility |
| Message | OOC: I was saying to look at things from an IC perspective. They're not linked, IC, but what a strange coincidence it is that they are never active at the same time. We know this is because of an OOC reality that they are linked, even if they aren't linked IC. And correct your terms. You said "game rules mean that IC players can't have two parties active at the same time" when the correct term is "game rules mean that OOC players cannot have 2 IC parties active at the same time" Believe me; you're saying something completely different. There is no such thing as "IC players" as you termed it just now. Players are OOC; characters are IC. The same player owns both characters, even if there is no IC link. So if there is no IC link, what is the IC justification for the coincidence? If you're speaking IC, you can't make reference to OOC game rules. Speak in IC logic to justify the coincidence of similar names and the parties never being active at the same time. The post, and this bill, are IC. Respond to them IC instead of OOC. And I'm making a "big deal" out of this with good reason. Nation switching, so frequently, is quite annoying. There is not "massive controversial RP" out of this; calm down. |
| Date | 20:46:48, May 30, 2012 CET | From | Luthorian Democrats | To | Debating the Suspension of Adamson Nobility |
| Message | OOC: I know you like bossing people about and getting your own way but they're not linked, its as simple as that. Don't try telling me that two of my parties are linked when I control them, not you, and I say they're not linked. That's the end of it. |
| Date | 20:53:22, May 30, 2012 CET | From | Beluz Democratic Karavist Party | To | Debating the Suspension of Adamson Nobility |
| Message | OOC: I never said they're linked IC. I'm bossing anyone around? Wow. I never said your parties are linked IC. I made an IC statement; if you object to it, then respond to it IC. I made the statement, IC (as an-ingame character) and you responded OOC. You clearly don't know the difference between the 2 terms "OOC" and "IC" and you're only making yourself look stupid. I never proposed this bill OOC, as the player. I proposed this bill, and posted something, IC, as a character. Your OOC response is invalid. You messaged be OOC since you made reference to "the forums" in the message. A valid response has to be done IC, or not done at all. And how did you come into the picture anyway? We proposed a bill and we said we would hold discussions with the Luthori monarch. There is a 100% seat support for this bill, and you are not the Luthori monarch, so shut up. When did you become a part of any of this discussion? We have an agreement with Luthori. I'm simply going to specify that no-one named "Jack Adamson" is allowed to cross our borders. Find something else to whine about, like how you can't manage to stay in a nation for over 2 weeks. It's annoying. And you keep using the same name; it causes IC confusion. |
| Date | 21:10:09, May 30, 2012 CET | From | Luthorian Democrats | To | Debating the Suspension of Adamson Nobility |
| Message | OOC: I know the differences between OOC and IC. I'm not responding IC because thats what you want, you want some sort of dramatic issue made of something that is untrue. You've said that members of one of my political organisations, the House of Adamson, "continuously moving around and crossing the border", which is god modding. Only I control members of my political parties. I don't care what you want. And I don't whine about me not being able to stay in a nation for over 2 weeks, its you that does that. Now, if you'd refrain from controlling members of the House of Adamson, which is inactive, I would appreciate it. |
| Date | 21:53:57, May 30, 2012 CET | From | Beluz Democratic Karavist Party | To | Debating the Suspension of Adamson Nobility |
| Message | I never said members of the House of Adamson; I realized you couldn't include that in your quote. I said "Adamsons" and that means anyone with the name "Adamson" who isn't transparently transferring funds (all other Beluzian houses at least declare if they have ties outside of Beluzia). There was the House of Adamson in Beluzia, and there is a party in Luthori inspired by someone with the name "Jack Adamson" which you used in the article. To us, IC, the strange coincidence of Beluzian Adamsons suddenly becoming inactive, and another political organization, influenced by someone of the same name, suddenly becoming active in the nation that shares our largest border, is a concern. A political family, like the Adamsons, suddenly goes quiet in Beluzia? That wouldn't make sense unless you actually left Beluzia. Even if you didn't, this bill could qualify as government propaganda and the only way to counter it would be making an IC statement. You don't want to make an IC statement? Then shut up and ignore the IC statements that I made. I simply made a post and I'm suspending Adamson nobility under the notion that Adamsons were only temporarily active in Beluzia, and other parties, with people of the same name, have similar traits; the LLP was only active for a short while, then it became inactive and it's active again. Even if it's not the same set of Adamsons, the created IC facts remain: - A political organization is in Luthori, and it was inspired by someone name "Jack Adamson" - The LLP, inspired by Jack Adamson, went inactive right before the House of Adamson became active - The House of Adamson became inactive shortly after returning to the political scene - Luthori and Beluzia share a large border; even if the Adamsons in both nations aren't related, the government is allowed to have suspicions, and pass legislation based on its suspicions, as they coud easily cross the border like any other Beluzian or Luthori citizen transporting cargo from port to port. Did they find WMDs in Iraq? No, they didn't. Maybe there were no WMDs in Iraq. Maybe there is no link between the Beluzian Adamsons and the LLP, but the government is still allowed to have suspicions, and still allowed to act on those suspicions, since there are so many coincidences. A coincidence is any set of incidents or realizations which occur with similarities. In IC logic, it is a coincidence that the LLP and the House of Adamson are never active at the same time, even if they're not linked, the realization of the fact (that the LLP and the House of Adamson are never active at the same time) is notion of a coincidence. -- I don't see why YOU're making any big deal. We simply feel to pass a law based on our IC suspicion of a link, as the Beluzian government. Even if there is no link, we are allowed to have suspicions, and you haven't made any IC disclaimers to turn us away from those, have you? The bill, along with the post on the forum, is intended to discourage you from switching nations so much. If you have no intention of coming back to Beluzia, as you claim, then you shouldn't have a problem with this bill, or the forum post. |
| Date | 13:52:43, May 31, 2012 CET | From | Beluz Democratic Karavist Party | To | Debating the Suspension of Adamson Nobility |
| Message | OOC: Wow, you don't win elections in Luthori so you leave. That is terrible sportsmanship, and an attitude which no-one likes. Don't complain about treaty-locking; you knew they had that treaty because that was your excuse for leaving the first time, and you came to Beluzia. We knew you'd leave Luthori in less than a week. You came to Beluzia and your existing visibility (right before you went inactive) hlelped you to win some seats. You became the largest party, got cocky about it, made big plans and mouthed off, then when the next elections came up, you failed so you left. You do this in almost every nation' you fail then leave. If you don't want a challenge, find an empty nation. |
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Voting
| Vote | Seats | ||||
| yes |
Total Seats: 99 | ||||
| no | Total Seats: 0 | ||||
| abstain | Total Seats: 0 |
| Random fact: Players should not role-play characters without the consent of the owner, and if they find they have role-played the character beyond what the owner intended, they should withdraw or amend the role-play appropriately. |
| Random quote: "There is no problem that cannot be solved with diplomacy or debate. Anyone who thinks otherwise does not need a gun, but a direct ride to a mental health clinic." - Ascentio Cartaginese, former Istalian politician |