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Bill: Public Education
Details
Submitted by[?]: Trigunian Social-Democratic Workers
Status[?]: defeated
Votes: This is an ordinary bill. It requires more yes votes than no votes. This bill will not pass any sooner than the deadline.
Voting deadline: July 2161
Description[?]:
| WT |
Proposals
Article 1
Proposal[?] to change The education system.
Old value:: Education is private, but the government issues vouchers to pay for the schooling of disadvantaged children.
Current: There is a free public education system and a small number of private schools, which are heavily regulated to ensure they teach adequate skills and information.
Proposed: There is a free public education system alongside private schools.
Debate
These messages have been posted to debate on this bill:
| Date | 01:23:01, December 25, 2005 CET | From |  Trigunian Social-Democratic Workers | To | Debating the Public Education |
| Message | In RL, poorer people don't have time to home-school there kids and provide for them. Also, subsidies are most of the times below the average effective cost of education. This will lead to the following: 1. People with no extra means will go to low-cost schools in line with the actual subsidies 2. Other people would tend to invest in their children's education further to the subsidies. This leads to a unacceptable diferentiation in the education quality between richer and poorer. One example of this problem is the USA where, because of underfunded public education system, the number of people who can access higher education are lower than the average of Western Democracies. This is aggravated by the fact that lots of people form other countries come to study or as exchange to their Universities, because of a better funded public education system. |
| Date | 16:19:00, December 25, 2005 CET | From | Liberty Party | To | Debating the Public Education |
| Message | We absolutely oppose the introduction of the state intervening in the operation of education. Your complaint about "subsidies are most of the times below the average effective cost of education" is fallacious. Since state-run education would still rely on state subsidy, the problem would still exist under your proposal. Indeed the problem would be exacerbated for three reasons: 1. By running education and spending, the government can obfuscate the fact that it is underfunding education more easily than where it gives vouchers of a specified amount. Since the government can do so, it is to be expected that it will do so; 2. By using the inefficient state to run the education system, the cost of education increases and therefore the value of what is provided declines; 3. You punish poorer people and condemn them to having no choice but to suffer the public education system by maximising the marginal cost of escaping the public education system to a private school. |
| Date | 22:55:04, December 25, 2005 CET | From | Trigunian Social-Democratic Workers | To | Debating the Public Education |
| Message | Addressing your three arguments: 1. A democratically elected government could do so, but would not do so if the government intends to be reelected. Private entities could do both things, but would do what maximizes profit, without such considerations; 2. It is yet to be proven that state management is necessarily worst than private in every sectors of economy. In this sector, the example I provided on my last post suggests exactly the opposite; 3. Your argument is upside down. If there is a free public education, the private sector will have to lower prices to compete with a free service. |
| Date | 00:29:26, December 26, 2005 CET | From | Liberty Party | To | Debating the Public Education |
| Message | 1. "A democratically elected government could do so, but would not do so if the government intends to be reelected." Are you seriously claiming that elected governments do not cut real spending on education if they think they can get away with it? The labour government in the UK has been doing it with universities ever since they were elected in 1997. "Private entities could do both things, but would do what maximizes profit, without such considerations" I don't expect private entities to be morally superior to government (or vice versa) but I do expect private entities to be more efficient. As you so astutely observe, the drive to make profits means that a private entity cannot endlessly pour money down the drain secure in the knowledge it can just take more money in taxes. Additionally, since private entities do not enjoy the overwhelming power of a state monopoly, they have to do better if they want to make a profit. 2. "It is yet to be proven that state management is necessarily worst than private in every sectors of economy." True. And what exactly would you accept as proof? Education is not going to deliver the same obvious evidence as, say, state management of agricultural policy (amply demonstrated in the Soviet Union, Mao's China, North Korea, etc) since a lack of education doesn't instantly cause the millions of deaths that a mismanagement of agriculture does. Why should we start from the assumption that state interference is a good thing? It causes havoc in every area where empirical evidence is available, so the initial assumption surely ought to be that state intervention is a bad thing. Moreover, in a free country the burden of proof should be on the government to prove that intervention is necessary, since every intervention chips away at liberty. If it is evidence that you want, how about the fact that whenever a person has the opportunity to escape the public system, even if it costs them more money, they seize it? Can you honestly say that people in the US would choose public education over private education? Where exactly has the state demonstrated that it can do a better job of teaching than the private sector? 3. No, my argument is the right way up. Allow me to illustrate. Under your system you have two local schools. School A is the public school funded out of general taxation, let's say that its real cost is TRA5,000pa per student. The government pays this money which it takes from you as taxes. Next door is a good school, it is private and charges TRA7,000pa per student. As in real life, these good schools are over-subscribed. If a person wants to escape the public system and go private they need to find an additional TRA7,000pa. This is probably not difficult for a wealthy family, but likely to be impossible for poor families. Therefore poor families will be stuck with the public school that you are running, and wealthy families send their kids to the good schools (you may have noticed that this is a bit like what happens in real life). Now consider the alternative: The state does not run any schools. Instead of running schools it provides vouchers that can be spent, as cash, in educational establishments. Once again, poor school A costs TRA5,000pa. The voucher amount is TRA5,000. Once again, better school B costs TRA7,000pa. However, it now costs the parent TRA2,000pa to send their kid to a better school instead of TRA7,000pa, which makes decent education far more accessible to poor families. Once again, you are showing that your interests have nothing to do with maximising the quality of education (which is best done by getting the state out it) or best dealing with the economics (which is best done by stopping the state screwing up the market), but merely the policy that gives you, as the state, the most power over peoples' lives. That's fine, if your goal is to control and mould society, but at least be honest about it, don't pretend that it's in the peoples' own interests. |
| Date | 00:43:32, December 26, 2005 CET | From | Trigunian Social-Democratic Workers | To | Debating the Public Education |
| Message | I'm not even going to bother. |
| Date | 01:04:21, December 26, 2005 CET | From | Trigunian Social-Democratic Workers | To | Debating the Public Education |
| Message | Oh, the last paragraph is very amusing. I'm trying to control the state within a web game. Next you'll acuse me of planning a revolution. |
| Date | 12:41:59, December 26, 2005 CET | From | Liberty Party | To | Debating the Public Education |
| Message | I don't think the game mechanics have a revolution option, but it might make for an interesting addition. |
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Voting
| Vote | Seats | ||||
| yes | Total Seats: 111 | ||||
| no |
Total Seats: 219 | ||||
| abstain |
Total Seats: 124 |
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