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Bill: A Revision of Nobility and Privilage
Details
Submitted by[?]: Imperial Democratic Party
Status[?]: defeated
Votes: This is an ordinary bill. It requires more yes votes than no votes. This bill will not pass any sooner than the deadline.
Voting deadline: August 4042
Description[?]:
| While the Imperial Democratic Party desires to secure the history of the Luthori Empire, we know that in order to move forward we must enact some changes. We desire to limit the rights given to titled nobility so that all people of the Empire stand on a more equal footing. We do not desire to do away with titles, and would fight against their destruction. |
Proposals
Article 1
Proposal[?] to change Privileges of nobility (if nobility is recognised by the government).
Old value:: Nobility confers major rights, and can be hereditary.
Current: Nobility confers major rights, and can be hereditary.
Proposed: Nobility confers titles and minor political rights, but no direct control over people or land, and can be hereditary.
Debate
These messages have been posted to debate on this bill:
| Date | 18:25:44, June 09, 2016 CET | From | National Liberal Party | To | Debating the A Revision of Nobility and Privilage |
| Message | Mr Speaker, We could easily walk through the lobbies with the Imperial Democrats on this issue, and fully back this reform. I yield, Matthias Gret |
| Date | 19:26:07, June 09, 2016 CET | From | Liberal Party | To | Debating the A Revision of Nobility and Privilage |
| Message | "This will be one of the priorities of the Liberals once we get elected to the chamber--getting rid of privileges and unfair social stratification. So vote for the true Liberals this July. Let's recreate democracy!" - Harry McFarrow, leader of the Liberal Party |
| Date | 21:13:52, June 09, 2016 CET | From | Imperial Conservative Union (IA) | To | Debating the A Revision of Nobility and Privilage |
| Message | Mr. Speaker, We are and always will be against any bill that challenges the traditions and institutions of Luthori. The Nobility serve a purpose, with both the hereditary and merchant classes supporting the governance and stability of the Empire. We are against any challenge to this system that hands over the reigns of government and policy completely to the "whims" of the mob without a counter balance. At the duchy level and lower there are both elected and nobility held positions* that work well together in governing the empire. Leave be what works and needs no change. *(OOC: Many of the elected earn merchant titles of nobility due to their service, while the landed nobility typically do not run outside of the National level as they have power already at the local levels. Both nobles and commoners are appointed to positions at the Imperial level as well. While out of date the wiki page on the nobility is very helpful for explaining their role in Luthori and the different classes. http://particracy.wikia.com/wiki/Luthori_Nobility) |
| Date | 21:14:22, June 09, 2016 CET | From | Imperial Conservative Union (IA) | To | Debating the A Revision of Nobility and Privilage |
| Message | OOC: Forgot to post IC: I yield. |
| Date | 22:30:18, June 09, 2016 CET | From | Imperial Democratic Party | To | Debating the A Revision of Nobility and Privilage |
| Message | Mr. Speaker, This bill is not intended to destroy the traditions or institutions of Luthori but to bring the Empire into a more modern time. No titles of Nobility are being done away with. Rather the intent of this bill is to move more of the power held by nobles into the hands of commoners. There will be reserved powers that nobles still maintain as the eyes and ears of the His Imperial Majesty the Emperor. However, the people of Luthori deserve to have a greater say in how the nation is governed on a daily basis. I yield |
| Date | 01:09:06, June 10, 2016 CET | From | Imperial Conservative Union (IA) | To | Debating the A Revision of Nobility and Privilage |
| Message | Mr. Speaker, You claim that the nobility is preventing the commoners from power. However you have provided no examples. Their rights are equal in political power. There are elected governors and councils in the duchies, and both have equal say in the Diet at the National and Imperial levels. The only place where one might claim uneven representation is in the Imperial Offices of State. However this not because nobles have a monopoly, but those who achieve such offices have likely earned title of nobility in their long service. There are seperate legal systems for the two, but only when it is a case between two nobles or two commoners, otherwise the commoner system has precedent. The nobility play an important role in Luthori politics and government. Leave what works well enough alone. Needless reforms do nothing to restore the Empire to its former glory, but do weakener for the forces of chaos to dominate her once again. I yield. |
| Date | 05:28:02, June 10, 2016 CET | From | Imperial Democratic Party | To | Debating the A Revision of Nobility and Privilage |
| Message | Mr. Speaker, Anytime a person inherits a position or power by sheer luck of the draw due to genetic lottery, that is denying the common people control of their own nation. I Yield. |
| Date | 15:58:26, June 10, 2016 CET | From | Imperial Conservative Union (IA) | To | Debating the A Revision of Nobility and Privilage |
| Message | Mr. Speaker, Then are you not questioning the power of the Emperor by that accusation? He is by law the Head of Government, the Head of State, and the Head of the Military. Positions he has because of his blood. The merchant class nobility ranks outrank those of the landed nobility. There is nothing about the Luthori nobility system that makes commoners any less capable than nobles. It rewards those who work hard, and even the landed must keep a certain standard in order to preserve their positions. I yield. (OOC: With the exception of the Imperial Family, the highest rank of Prince is a merchant class title. Meaning it is not promised to someone because they hold particular land or are a member of a particular family. Landed nobility can be given the title, but it ends with them.) |
| Date | 18:37:51, June 10, 2016 CET | From | Imperial Democratic Party | To | Debating the A Revision of Nobility and Privilage |
| Message | Mr. Speaker, I submit that this be put to a vote of the Imperial Diet for final decision. Let the voice of the people be heard through their elected representatives. I yield. |
| Date | 21:08:58, June 10, 2016 CET | From | Imperial Conservative Union (IA) | To | Debating the A Revision of Nobility and Privilage |
| Message | Mr. Speaker, This proposal inherently affects the governance structure of the Duchies without proposing an alternative system. Right now the landed based Grand Dukes serve as "mini-HoSs" for the duchies while the elected governors serve as "mini-HoGs." This proposal removes the ability of the highest ranking landed nobility from performing their duties. It is a disgrace to the traditions of Luthori, and is once again causing needless chaos where there need be none. We also call attention to the IDP's failure to answer our question. Perhaps they are not as loyal to the Empire and the Emperor as they claim. They shout inequality and yet what they propose is inherently unequal. Rule by the "mob" does not equate equality. The ICU will fight this in the courts and will work tirelessly to restore it if it passes this chamber. Mindless and pointless reforms do not create progress. They weaken and undermine the progress that has already been made. All Hail Luthori!!! I yield. *ICU Benches: All Hail Luthori!!!...All Hail Luthori!!!...All Hail Luthori!!!... |
| Date | 22:36:06, June 10, 2016 CET | From | Imperial Democratic Party | To | Debating the A Revision of Nobility and Privilage |
| Message | Mr. Speaker, In no way does this bill that pertains specifically to the nobility affect our exalted Emperor and the role which he fulfills in the Empire. This bill does not go after the ideas expressed in Article 1: Section 2b...that the Empire is a Constitutional Monarchy. What this bill does do is restrict the rights and privileges granted to the nobility, not matter if they be granted for lifetime holding or hereditary. There is no place in a democratic constitutional monarchy for a class of people who are granted any form of rights that are not extended to all the people who are citizens of the empire. What is good for some should indeed be good for all. I yield. |
| Date | 22:54:39, June 10, 2016 CET | From | Imperial Conservative Union (IA) | To | Debating the A Revision of Nobility and Privilage |
| Message | Mr. Speaker, The member seems to be confused. Luthori is nor will it ever be a Constitutional Monarchy. She is and always shall be as long as the Emperor sits on the Imperial Throne, an Aristocratic Monarchy, with the Emperor holding and being invested with absolute power over the the Empire. The member still has not addressed the question at hand. How does this proposal plan on changing the current system. If the HoS of each duchy is no long the landed Grand Dukes, then who does it go to? The elected Governors? The elected Councils? Same for the cities? If the Earls and Barons are no longer acting as the chief representative then who? You claim they are unequal and yet fail time and again to provide even one example of who they are unequal. All I am seeing and those voting with you appear to be fooled, is a desire to weaken those that help guard against the rule of the mob and and instead enable it so that you yourself may one day gain more power. This is not Luthorian and it arguably unconstitutional, a finding we are sure the National Supreme Court or even the Imperial Supreme Court would find. Instead of making baseless claims and failing to address the questions that are raised by this irresponsible and shortsighted bill of ignorance for Luthori traditions and system of government, perhaps the member could actually propose reforms that would benefit Luthori instead of pulling down the very institutions on which it is based. I yield. |
| Date | 00:46:19, June 11, 2016 CET | From | Imperial Democratic Party | To | Debating the A Revision of Nobility and Privilage |
| Message | Mr. Speaker, I must be confused as the constitution clearly starts out saying that this is a Constitutional Monarchy and I will continue to operate under that assumption until the constitution is changed to reflect that. This change would indeed strip the Grand Dukes, Earls, and Barons of their place as chief representative and would devolve the power to purely elected officials by the people. If a Grand Duke desired to run, he would have that right but it would not be due to their title but rather there citizenship. |
| Date | 00:46:36, June 11, 2016 CET | From | Imperial Democratic Party | To | Debating the A Revision of Nobility and Privilage |
| Message | I yield |
| Date | 03:42:04, June 11, 2016 CET | From | Imperial Conservative Union (IA) | To | Debating the A Revision of Nobility and Privilage |
| Message | OOC: The national level dies have a constitution and you are right to reference it (game mechanic we can't control). However the Imperial level (which is above it) is an unwritten Constitution comprised of three Acts currently. I am working (slowly) on a reform bill that will bring it down to one Act (technically two ad the IDM Reforms will simply be amended). Anyway, exactly how one defined a Constitutional monarchy is up for interpretation. Luthori has traditionally, when the Imperial Level is in existence, has considered it to mean that it is simply saying that there is a Constitution, and is not a political statement on the type of state Luthori is. IC: Mr. Speaker, I understand full well that those nobles can run for office. You are talking to the the current Grand Duke of Tinako. My point is a separation of powers and roles between the Head of Government and Head of State at the lower levels of government. Your proposal eliminates one and effectively combined it with the elected. Governance by a popularity contest or rule by the mob is not inheritly better. Proper checks are needed on ever system and the current one maintain s that balance dutifully and successfully. I yield. |
| Date | 19:05:16, June 11, 2016 CET | From | Imperial Democratic Party | To | Debating the A Revision of Nobility and Privilage |
| Message | Mr. Speaker, I appreciate my colleague from the IA giving me a bit of needed history on the empire. I am but a recent transplant to this land. After having consultations with my fellow party members, I see the need to reform some of my parties political statements and leanings. I humbly apologize to the members of the Imperial Diet for putting forth this bill. I yield. |
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Voting
| Vote | Seats | |||||
| yes |
Total Seats: 120 | |||||
| no |
Total Seats: 545 | |||||
| abstain |
Total Seats: 0 |
| Random fact: Jelbic = "Group of cultures with an overall Central Asian/Eurasian steppe theme, using a fictional language developed specifically for Particracy". |
| Random quote: "I envy you. You North Americans are very lucky. You are fighting the most important fight of all, you live in the heart of the beast." - Che Guevara |