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Bill: P.d.I. 02/4256 Universal Income Bill
Details
Submitted by[?]: Istalia Unita
Status[?]: defeated
Votes: This is an ordinary bill. It requires more yes votes than no votes. This bill will not pass any sooner than the deadline.
Voting deadline: December 4256
Description[?]:
| Niccolo Zito, Leader of the PCI 'In a nation with one of the strongest economies on Terra, we shouldn't have individuals who are unemployed living their lives on minimal subsistence. Unemployment and low skilled jobs, being a required aspect of the Capitalist economy, shouldn't be a punishment for people like it currently is in this society.' |
Proposals
Article 1
Proposal[?] to change The nation's policy on minimum wage regulation.
Old value:: There shall be a minimum wage at a level that a single full time worker on it can adequately subsist.
Current: There shall be a minimum wage at a level that a full time worker on it can support a family of four without falling under the poverty line.
Proposed: There shall be a minimum wage at a level considered a "living wage," well above the poverty line for a full time worker.
Debate
These messages have been posted to debate on this bill:
| Date | 18:22:07, August 13, 2017 CET | From | Partito Nazionale Democratico | To | Debating the P.d.I. 02/4256 Universal Income Bill |
| Message | Gianluigi Rosso, AI Vice Leader, Increasing the minimum wage will cause nothing but inflation requiring further increases in minimum wage to adjust for it, it is an endless spiral and workers are still trapped in poverty, instead we need non-monetary motivation for them to work harder and hence to earn more. Thank you. |
| Date | 20:36:39, August 13, 2017 CET | From | Istalia Unita | To | Debating the P.d.I. 02/4256 Universal Income Bill |
| Message | Niccolo Zito, PCI ' I'm sorry how does increasing minimum wage increase inflation? We're not creating more money, we're redistributing it from Capital to Labour. No money is created by this process. Further more we know it doesn't end poverty. We as a Party don't intend to maintain Capitalism you know, we're called Communists for a reason. It's simply an improvement on before. And finally what do you mean work harder? People on fixed hours work as long as they are told for and are paid for the amount of hours they work. If they work harder during those hours they are paid the same rate anyway. You can't rely on a manager to tell a shareholder someone needs a pay rise, especially if the worker is already working hard with the amount of pay they're already getting.' |
| Date | 22:37:52, August 13, 2017 CET | From | Partito Nazionale Democratico | To | Debating the P.d.I. 02/4256 Universal Income Bill |
| Message | Gianluigi Rosso, AI Vice Leader, I have expected a communist party not to have any economic competence, therefore let me explain how increasing minimum wage causes inflation. By increasing price of labour, companies are forced to charge higher prices for their goods to maintain profits. This increases prices, hence you get inflation. And I haven't started yet on how this would cause unemployment, especially amongst young people, as employers seek to replace labour with capital, which is the case in all major industries nowadays. Sorry but this proposal simply will destroy our small business, as they will be forced to fire workers and not keep up, and will make Istalia uncompetitive on the global arena, which for us, as a nationalist and patriotic party, is simply unacceptable and we are disappointed that the LP swings that way as well. |
| Date | 23:30:39, August 13, 2017 CET | From | Nuova Unione | To | Debating the P.d.I. 02/4256 Universal Income Bill |
| Message | Anastasia Passaretti, FR chairperson Although the current system is bad, this would improve the situation temporarily and cause problems for those searching for jobs. We simply cannot allow that. Plus, we believe that a lower minimum wage, however bad it is, helps in decreasing the unemployment rate in our country. |
| Date | 09:07:01, August 14, 2017 CET | From | Istalia Unita | To | Debating the P.d.I. 02/4256 Universal Income Bill |
| Message | Niccolo Zito, PCI Right. So it is the economics of Capital which means we have to decide between people's living standards and unemployment and inflation. Truly evidence that Communists are wrong, am I right? |
| Date | 09:25:02, August 14, 2017 CET | From | Istalia Unita | To | Debating the P.d.I. 02/4256 Universal Income Bill |
| Message | Niccolo Zito, PCI I mean you literally just explained how Capital prevents reform. As wages increase, prices increase to match it and hense it doesn't improve peoples lives. So now we have to increase working hours in the hope that'll work, increasing people's wages but decreasing the time they have to spend it. Some improvement. Why not just do away with the system if these are the sorts of insane dilemmas we're forced to endure. |
| Date | 10:33:05, August 14, 2017 CET | From | Partito Nazionale Democratico | To | Debating the P.d.I. 02/4256 Universal Income Bill |
| Message | Gianluigi Rosso, AI Vice Leader, Because compared to socialism and communism it works not only on paper. |
| Date | 20:06:16, August 14, 2017 CET | From | Istalia Unita | To | Debating the P.d.I. 02/4256 Universal Income Bill |
| Message | Niccolo Zito, PCI I'd love to hear what you think socialism and communism are to be honest. I assure you they work, not just on paper. |
| Date | 21:39:19, August 14, 2017 CET | From | Partito Nazionale Democratico | To | Debating the P.d.I. 02/4256 Universal Income Bill |
| Message | Gianluigi Rosso, AI Vice Leader, Communism and Socialism are authoritarian systems, led by the "DICTATORSHIP of the proletariat", based on immoral grounds that anyone is entitled to violently seize anyone else's hard earned capital in a revolution. Even though the capital in the hands of labour without entrepreneurship, which brings everything together, is absolutely worthless. Hence your system needs an almighty state to get going to plan everything out, to tell labour what to do ( the usual job of the entrepreneur) and the state needs to "protect the revolution", as it is clearly inferior to the capitalist system and needs to be maintained and kept alive using force. In "communism", which comes after socialism, there is no state, but I never heard of an almighty state willing to simply dissolve, without once again blood being spilled. That is communism and I'd love to hear you prove me wrong, in theory or using live examples. |
| Date | 00:49:55, August 15, 2017 CET | From | Istalia Unita | To | Debating the P.d.I. 02/4256 Universal Income Bill |
| Message | OOC: Well that was far better than most definitions I get, even if it is incorrect and misleading. Still pretty good, bravo. Slight alterations, when Marx wrote his works, words meant different things than they do today, so when he says commodity fetishism he doesn't mean BDSM. In a similar way when he said Dictatorship of the Proletariat he simply meant a state run by the Proletariat, the workers. Indeed one of the real life governments he used as an example of a dictatorship of the Proletariat, was the government of the Paris Commune, which was incredibly democratic, with pretty much a parliamentary system inwhich the delegates could be replaced at any time if they overstepped their post. So no they aren't always authoritarian, by which I sense you mean a single leader or an unelected council or something in between. In the case of the Soviet Union, Socialism in the Marxist sense was never achieved. Indeed Lenin called his system state-capitalism. Stalin changed the definition of socialism later on so it pretty much meant dictatorship of the Proletariat, which in the case of Stalin is still highly debatable, in order to legitimise his rule. Now i think people's definitions of a lot of things Marx talked about are misleading, which is the issue with Marx, he's open to interpretation which is why you've got a huge communist spectrum with Anarchists on one side and Stalinists on the other. Now the massive love of entrepreneurs that you exhibit is somewhat justified within capitalism, mainly due to how it operates. I'm not denying if you take away entrepreneurship in the current system it'd collapse, but that's the crux of people's misinterpretations with communism. We don't seek to seize your capital, we seek to destroy the concept of capital itself, by removing what is needed for capitalism to sustain itself and replace it with something else. Now your comments about the state are interesting, as if capital could operate without the state defending it's interests. I mean i don't know you, but you seem right libertarian esk, maybe an an-cap? Well I'll assure you that the state, ie the Marxist definition of what it is, will never go away under some an-cap society. Violence is always required to prop up and establish new economic systems. I mean let's talk about Capitalism. For capitalism to form you needed vagabond laws, you needed the end of common law, you needed forces to put down revolutionary action by peasants, you needed force to put down counter revolutionary action from aristocrats, you needed slavery. Like violence is a massive drive within the capitalist economy and was certainly needed when it was formed and it is still needed now. The only thing that allows a landlord to own land or a capitalist to own capital is that if someone took it from them, some police or military personnel will come over and attack you until you surrendered or you die. There's alot more I could talk about, but there's very little room for a full debate. If you wish to talk more about it I'm more than willing to do so in messages. |
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Voting
| Vote | Seats | |||||
| yes |
Total Seats: 212 | |||||
| no |
Total Seats: 423 | |||||
| abstain | Total Seats: 0 |
| Random fact: Selucia is Particracy's modern take on Ancient Rome, located on the continent of Majatra. |
| Random quote: "Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun... our principle is to have the Party control the gun and never allow the gun to control the Party." - Mao Zedong |