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Bill: Welfare Reform Bill 2192D4
Details
Submitted by[?]: Black Magic
Status[?]: passed
Votes: This is an ordinary bill. It requires more yes votes than no votes. This bill will not pass any sooner than the deadline.
Voting deadline: January 2194
Description[?]:
| The state should not be in the housing business for many reasons - it is an inefficient, remote and careless landlord which has spawned many modern visions of hell. Private administration will produce better management and, in the case where it does not, Article 1 will assure citizens the choice of moving to housing that is better managed. The higher cost of such support will be offset by capital and management costs currently invested by the state in housing and the result will be better neighbourhoods, better lifestyles, better productivity - state support is combined with private incentive. |
Proposals
Article 1
Proposal[?] to change Guarantee of minimum income.
Old value:: All adults not supported by another person shall be guaranteed a very basic subsistence income by the government. However, the provision of this is not to exceed a certain period of time.
Current: All adults not supported by another person shall be guaranteed a very basic subsistence income by the government.
Proposed: All adults shall be guaranteed a very basic subsistence income by the government.
Article 2
Proposal[?] to change The government policy regarding housing.
Old value:: The state provides public housing to low-income families.
Current: The state provides public housing to low-income families.
Proposed: All housing is privately-owned.
Debate
These messages have been posted to debate on this bill:
| Date | 21:41:42, March 01, 2006 CET | From |  Konservativ Monarkistpartiet | To | Debating the Welfare Reform Bill 2192D4 |
| Message | How do you suggest that Article One is compatible with Article Two, and the arguments made in the description? |
| Date | 23:56:07, March 01, 2006 CET | From | Freedom Fighter Party | To | Debating the Welfare Reform Bill 2192D4 |
| Message | How is a none supported adult guarenteed a good standard of living when the government does not provide any form of income or a home? |
| Date | 02:27:40, March 02, 2006 CET | From | Black Magic | To | Debating the Welfare Reform Bill 2192D4 |
| Message | Note that Article 1 guarantees a reasonable standard of living rather than the present basic subsistence. Article 2 gets the government out of the housing business. Private ownership is always better managed, and in the cases where it is not a "reasonable" standard of living will make it easier for the welfare recipient to take their business elsewhere. The model is more efficient, grants individuals more choice and creates incentives that lead to better neighbourhoods: better maintenance and less crime. |
| Date | 09:06:31, March 02, 2006 CET | From | KSP - Kazulia Socialdemokratisk Parti | To | Debating the Welfare Reform Bill 2192D4 |
| Message | Main problem: owners of the houses know how much is the state support to families and will demand a rent that it is nearly to the entire amount. |
| Date | 10:25:31, March 02, 2006 CET | From | Klassiskt Liberala Partiet | To | Debating the Welfare Reform Bill 2192D4 |
| Message | And then the Klassiskt Liberala Partiet will build more houses and demand lower rents than the other house owners, and make very much money. After that, the other owners of the houses will lower their rent, too. That is how a free market works, my dear friend. |
| Date | 18:02:13, March 02, 2006 CET | From | KSP - Kazulia Socialdemokratisk Parti | To | Debating the Welfare Reform Bill 2192D4 |
| Message | Difficult, since each citizen need a house. Demand is more than the offer on this sector. |
| Date | 22:11:18, March 02, 2006 CET | From | Konservativ Monarkistpartiet | To | Debating the Welfare Reform Bill 2192D4 |
| Message | If demand is higher than supply, then the private sector will expand to meet the demand. |
| Date | 22:17:15, March 02, 2006 CET | From | KSP - Kazulia Socialdemokratisk Parti | To | Debating the Welfare Reform Bill 2192D4 |
| Message | Or, more realistic, high the prices. |
| Date | 22:20:59, March 02, 2006 CET | From | Konservativ Monarkistpartiet | To | Debating the Welfare Reform Bill 2192D4 |
| Message | Well not really, because as KLP points out, if one firm raises its prices, then new companies, or existing companies, will maintain lower prices, in order to aquire more business, its how the free market operates. |
| Date | 22:23:02, March 02, 2006 CET | From | KSP - Kazulia Socialdemokratisk Parti | To | Debating the Welfare Reform Bill 2192D4 |
| Message | Have you ever known that the theory of free market is not pratical, since the market is deviated by cooperations between the actors? |
| Date | 22:30:30, March 02, 2006 CET | From | Konservativ Monarkistpartiet | To | Debating the Welfare Reform Bill 2192D4 |
| Message | What is it with you and cartels? |
| Date | 22:44:27, March 02, 2006 CET | From | Klassiskt Liberala Partiet | To | Debating the Welfare Reform Bill 2192D4 |
| Message | well the socialdemokrats are right. free market is all about voluntary cooperation between different actors. I don't see, however, how this can be an argument against free market. Perhaps our fascist is a friend of coercion and torture. |
| Date | 22:49:38, March 02, 2006 CET | From | KSP - Kazulia Socialdemokratisk Parti | To | Debating the Welfare Reform Bill 2192D4 |
| Message | Firstly, we are not fascist: the right insult is totalitarian. About the free market, if you want that it works the actors must not cooperate between them, but work as individuals. In this way the prices can be lowered, but with cooperation this is impossible. Please read Smith theory, first. The problem of Smith theory is that it is a theory, like the Marxist theory of the proletarian dictatorship: they are simply utopias. |
| Date | 23:06:57, March 02, 2006 CET | From | Klassiskt Liberala Partiet | To | Debating the Welfare Reform Bill 2192D4 |
| Message | voluntary cooperation (trade) between individuals is the very basic principle of a free market. Oh, and contrary to the Marxist theory, Adam Smith didnt fail. All the wealth the world aquired in the last century is because of capitalism. |
| Date | 23:10:34, March 02, 2006 CET | From | KSP - Kazulia Socialdemokratisk Parti | To | Debating the Welfare Reform Bill 2192D4 |
| Message | Capitalism is not free market. Free market not exist, since there are countries that, directly or indirectly, control at least a part of the market. And trade is the encounter between demand and offer, not the cooperation: cooperation change this encounter and then distorce the prices. |
| Date | 23:22:50, March 02, 2006 CET | From | Klassiskt Liberala Partiet | To | Debating the Welfare Reform Bill 2192D4 |
| Message | If you buy a bread from your local bakery, is that not cooperation? |
| Date | 23:27:47, March 02, 2006 CET | From | KSP - Kazulia Socialdemokratisk Parti | To | Debating the Welfare Reform Bill 2192D4 |
| Message | No, since we are 2 different actors: buyer and seller. Cooperation is between buyers or sellers. |
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Voting
| Vote | Seats | |||
| yes |
Total Seats: 41 | |||
| no | Total Seats: 36 | |||
| abstain | Total Seats: 22 |
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| Random quote: "The great masses of the people... will more easily fall victims to a big lie than to a small one." - Adolf Hitler |