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Bill: National capital
Details
Submitted by[?]: Cooperative Commonwealth Federation
Status[?]: passed
Votes: This bill is a resolution. It requires more yes votes than no votes. This bill will not pass any sooner than the deadline.
Voting deadline: June 2063
Description[?]:
| The national capital: Port Andalay. |
Proposals
Debate
These messages have been posted to debate on this bill:
| Date | 19:03:45, June 04, 2005 CET |
From | Chorus of Amyst | To | Debating the National capital | | Message | (( I was obviously hoping for something in Kregon, but Port Andalay works well wnough for me. :D )) |
| Date | 23:30:44, June 04, 2005 CET |
From |  National People's Gang | To | Debating the National capital | | Message | ((If this is a bill, then it is appropriately here as legislation. If it's an RP agreement, move it in RP)) |
| Date | 01:54:19, June 05, 2005 CET |
From | Chorus of Amyst | To | Debating the National capital | | Message | (( It seems to have to be a bill, since the Albert Party only accepts agreed-upon assumptions in legislation. I'm sure glad we're finally gonna have a capital! :D )) |
| Date | 04:48:15, June 05, 2005 CET |
From | CNT/AFL | To | Debating the National capital | | Message | ((Sure whatever. Port Andalay suits our means really, since it's surprisingly close to the largely neglected Jorka, Golavia. Helps us prove our point.)) |
| Date | 07:30:17, June 05, 2005 CET |
From | National People's Gang | To | Debating the National capital | | Message | ((This is not a bill, it's a player-agreement))
The June 2nd Movement will not ratify further centralisation of power by the CCF. We urge our democratic colleagues to defeat this cynical piece of political manouevring. |
| Date | 07:43:11, June 05, 2005 CET |
From | Chorus of Amyst | To | Debating the National capital | | Message | (( What the hell? Do you not think that there was a national capital already? I'm starting to think that this entire thing is more trouble than it's worth. )) |
| Date | 09:26:48, June 05, 2005 CET |
From | National People's Gang | To | Debating the National capital | | Message | ((If there is a capital already, why the bill? I'll agree any capital anyone likes anywhere but that does not require legislation. Kill the bill and agree a capital)) |
| Date | 11:09:38, June 05, 2005 CET |
From | Chorus of Amyst | To | Debating the National capital | | Message | (( So you're willing to just agree on an assumed government factor in one case, but not others? You can accept an agreed-upon capital after the fact, but not an agreed upon tax after the fact? You can't pick and choose. This entire thing is just annoying now. )) |
| Date | 12:43:07, June 05, 2005 CET |
From | National People's Gang | To | Debating the National capital | | Message | ((What is taxed and how it's taxed is an integral part of government , which, in this scenario, is represented by a parliamentary party system. Disagreement about how much money government should raise, where from and in what way is one of the key reasons for political debate. It's a valid point that in its entire history of countless bills the government has not only not validated any way to raise revenues but has also spent money it presumably doesn't have. The 2nd June Movement raised this as a political point, through a politcal process, in order to discredit the government. Isn't that what oppositions do? Siting a capital is not a matter of politcal debate, in game terms, it's either there or it isn't. I'm quite willing to accept it's anywhere anyone wants to choose, put it in Rapula if you like, but it is not relevant to raise as a bill in parliament. The only circumstances in which this would happen would be in character to perhaps ratify a capital or to change the seat of government from one place to another. If that's the case the 2nd June Movement will oppose it, on political grounds. Doesn't it strike you as odd that this entire debate is out of character? Why then is it within the game functions?)) |
| Date | 13:01:20, June 05, 2005 CET |
From | Chorus of Amyst | To | Debating the National capital | | Message | (( If it's an integral part of government, don't you think that there would be such a system already in place? Why not say OOCly to everyone "Hey, maybe we should get that in writing so we know what's what and then we can debate it?" instead of just immediately accusing people of treason and fraud and a dozen other crimes ICly? )) |
| Date | 13:12:07, June 05, 2005 CET |
From | National People's Gang | To | Debating the National capital | | Message | ((I raised it OOC with the Amystian Council, if you recall. And have clarified it briefly with the CNT/AFL after what appeared to be a discussion between AC and the CNT/AFL. Legalise the AC's government revenue streams through the Ancient Order of Annual Tribal Tributes if you like, or a government-owned diamond mine, or a really big lottery win, or the selling of a wilderness area to a neighbouring country. OOC I don't care how it's done but IC the 2nd June Movement will carp and cajole and hustle because it's aim is to achieve representational, inclusive, consensus government.)) |
| Date | 13:17:33, June 05, 2005 CET |
From | Chorus of Amyst | To | Debating the National capital | | Message | (( That isn't the point I'm wondering about. I'm trying to figure out why you as a player did not bring the issue to public attention as a whole. I do remember you sending me a message about it, but from what I recall you said something along the lines of "assumptions are fine, but I would like to explore the finer details". That led me to believe that you did accept assumptions of tax systems or whatever to raise revenue. I don't remember the incident with the CNT that you mention, though; if you've got more details I'd appreciate them. In any case, I just dislike the fact that you never appeared to make an attempt to get EVERYONE together to discuss this, since you were the only one with a problem with it, and then you launched a revolution over a problem that only you had with the way we were playing. )) |
| Date | 13:34:37, June 05, 2005 CET |
From | National People's Gang | To | Debating the National capital | | Message | ((I didn't launch a revolution. The 2nd June was asked to join it, tried to moderate the terms, failed to do so, but went along with what other prospective partners had agreed.
In other aspects, the 2nd June responded to a system of government it considers unrepresentative and therefore undemocratic. The particular claims of the Impeach Vrylar bill would be a matter for the judicial system to decide/dismiss. To raise the issue of penniless government OOCly didn't seem appropriate but as an IC opposition to the government it strikes me as entirely relevant to accuse the government of whatever springs to mind.)) |
| Date | 17:33:07, June 05, 2005 CET |
From | National People's Gang | To | Debating the National capital | | Message | ((Okay. Despite this mechanism being inside the game format and despite it being directly contrary to the 2nd June's current policy of destroying the liberal centre in order to polarise opinion, again in the spirit of compromise, I'll change the vote on this. If the question had arisen in an OOC environment I'd have agreed with it. What I didn't agree with was a formal bill and voting process)) |
| Date | 17:58:51, June 05, 2005 CET |
From | Chorus of Amyst | To | Debating the National capital | | Message | (( I apologize then; I had assumed [falsely, it appears] that since you were the one to propose the Revolution bill and the first to change party names to reference the PACF that you were the initiator. My apologies.
The corruption claims don't bother me. The claim that no revenue sources exist simply because they aren't down in writing does. That's where our problem is - as I've said numerous times, at no point did any other party see the assumption as a problem, and all of us have participated in government actions before this all began anyway so it's not like there's a party that would be free of claims of abusing money if no revenue exists. )) |
| Date | 20:41:12, June 05, 2005 CET |
From | National People's Gang | To | Debating the National capital | | Message | ((That's why the MLP president was named as well. Parties not in government are hardly culpable. I'm not sure that no-one else raising it as an issue is relevant, if you're not part of the government then it's not your responsibility, so spend, spend, spend. I don't think you should be too bothered about it really, neither I nor the 2nd Juners are really expecting you/AC to actually do anything about it. As the CCF said elsewhere - it's a political jibe, it doesn't get more fatuous than that)) |
| Date | 23:05:12, June 05, 2005 CET |
From | Chorus of Amyst | To | Debating the National capital | | Message | (( Er ... everyone is in Parliament. Everyone's in government. Last time I checked you didn't need a cabinet position to be part of the government. )) |
| Date | 01:28:34, June 06, 2005 CET |
From | National People's Gang | To | Debating the National capital | | Message | ((Government=cabinet+(usually the parliamentary members of the cabinet parties).))
((erm...Being in parliament but not being in government through exclusion from cabinet is what we've been arguing about)) |
| Date | 01:39:25, June 06, 2005 CET |
From | Chorus of Amyst | To | Debating the National capital | | Message | (( I never saw government as equal to cabinet since PArliament itself is a government body. This is part of why I've never seen your point on making the cabinet proportional. )) |
| Date | 05:57:17, June 06, 2005 CET |
From | National People's Gang | To | Debating the National capital | | Message | ((As other aspects of disagreement now have a framework for settlement, I don't feel the need to compromise here. This is not an IC action, it is misplaced. Given that it is placed here by someone who is comfortable using phrases such as "that's pretty basic RP" it can only be deliberately misplaced. I'd like it removed)) |
| Date | 06:44:28, June 06, 2005 CET |
From | Chorus of Amyst | To | Debating the National capital | | Message | (( I don't think you can remove bills that are at vote, unfortunately. )) |
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| Vote |
Seats |
| yes | Total Seats: 372 |
| no | Total Seats: 43 |
| abstain | Total Seats: 0 |
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