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Bill: Stop Legalized Theft
Details
Submitted by[?]: Tuesday Is Coming
Status[?]: passed
Votes: This is an ordinary bill. It requires more yes votes than no votes. This bill will not pass any sooner than the deadline.
Voting deadline: October 2084
Description[?]:
| Given: That tax money is taken from Lodamun Citizens, with the explicit purpose of benefitting the people of Lodamun. Also Given: That foreign aid is widely seen to cause economic activity that is the opposite of that which it is meant to cause. Lastly Given: That any tax money given to other countries as foreign aid belongs solely to the people of Lodamun, and that no other country's citizens have more of a legal claim to that money than the people who earned it: We propose that the Parliament of the Independent Republic of Lodamun immediately cease ALL forms of monetary gifts to other nations. Let them collect their own taxes, allow our citizens to give to international charities on their own. All money recovered by this act shall be returned to those from whom it was taxed. A government agency, established for this purpose, shall continue to accept voluntary donations that shall be directed into foreign aid. This agency shall be funded entirely without tax money, a portion of donations shall be used instead. Each year, there shall be a report to the public detailing how the money was spent. Let this bill not be construed as to mean that we oppose all foreign aid, we just oppose compulsory taxation used for foreign aid. If this bill passes, citizens will have maximum choice over how their money is spent toward other countries, even if they would prefer that a government entity directs it. |
Proposals
Article 1
Proposal[?] to change Government policy towards giving aid to foreign countries.
Old value:: The government gives moderate aid to countries in need.
Current: The government gives high levels of aid to countries in need.
Proposed: The government never offers international aid.
Debate
These messages have been posted to debate on this bill:
| Date | 14:45:30, July 14, 2005 CET | From | Adam Smith Party | To | Debating the Stop Legalized Theft |
| Message | While we agree with the principles here, there are times after natural disasters and such like when a little money goes a long way in preserving the freedoms and dignity of the residents of the area affected. We are strongly opposed to systematic foreign aid, but we see no harm in acting as a compassionate state when there is real and present need. As such we can support this motion only if a clause concerning emergency disaster relief funding is included. This is different in nature to the perpetual aid that is provided to keep poorer nations dependant upon us wealthier nations. It is simply a helping hand at a moment of need. ((OOC - Tsunami type aid is fine, systematic subsidy of corrupt governments is not)) Richard Branson (Foreign Office Spokesman - ASP) |
| Date | 18:14:58, July 14, 2005 CET | From | Cooperative Commonwealth Federation | To | Debating the Stop Legalized Theft |
| Message | We will oppose this attempt to roll back our international commitments. We are all citizens of one planet, and to call the generous contributions of our people "theft" is a grave insult to all Lodamunians, who have shown their commitment to internationalism for some years now. This bill undermines our long-established foreign policy agenda. Lodamun has the strongest currency in the world, and can easily afford to give aid. If we as a prosperous nation do not, then who will? If Lodamun abolishes foreign aid, people in less fortunate countries will face increased poverty and disease. This bill suggests we stand by idly and let people in other countries die. It is completely unacceptable. Kwame Suzuki, CCF-Greens foreign affairs spokesperson |
| Date | 18:35:05, July 14, 2005 CET | From | Adam Smith Party | To | Debating the Stop Legalized Theft |
| Message | CCF - Having a strong currency does not mean that we are richer than other nations. It simply means that 1 unit of our money is worth more than 1 unit of somewhere elses money. It does not say how many units we earn on average, it does not indivcate that we are wealthy. As such there is no link between the value of the Lodamun Dollar and our governments ability to direct the earnings of our people to other nations. This bill suggests that we allow the people in other nations the self respect and knowledge that they are standing on their own. WOuld you rather be a charity case or a self sufficient person. Now apply that to the nations we interact with. Sure if we have a major accident, we would ike to have some help, but most of the time we prefer to look after ourselves. By flooding the world with aid you are weakening our own economy and weakining the economy of the recipient states. You are telling other nations that you think that they can not survive without our help. Then look at where the aid actually goes. Most of it ends up in the form of luxury yachts an mansions owned by the politicians in poor countries. We are willing to write of all debt that other nations have with us, but we require that we stop pumping resources into the pockets of corrupt and ineffective governments. |
| Date | 19:50:34, July 14, 2005 CET | From |  Tuesday Is Coming | To | Debating the Stop Legalized Theft |
| Message | CCF: "Theft" refers to the fact that the tax money is forcibly collected by the government for the only purpose of serving our citizens. To take money from someone by force, then give it away to another nation, can be classified as theft. One important thing for all to remember, this bill does not ban foreign aid. This bill simply removes our government from taking part in it. If "all Lodamunians, who have shown their commitment to internationalism for some years now" truly wish to give aid to other countrys, then this money should return to them so that they may make the decision. While we respect the ASP's request for disaster relief, we assert that such occurrances can be much better served by individual donations en masse. The government should not concern itself with this, but if it is truly the will of the people to provide international aid, then we should return the money to them so that they may do so as they see fit. However, if 99% of Lodamun citizens wish to provide international aid, by all means allow them to do so. But there is no moral justification for allowing them to force the other 1%, by vote, to give a dime to another country. The record of international aid, and its effects, also shows that it tends to have an opposite effect from what is intended. All countries were once poorer than the worlds poorest countries today((pre industrial Europe and USA, compare to modern Africa)). But every prosperous country today did not require foreign money to develop. There were no other countries available to give any. Today we find that the countries with the greatest need, the poorest countries, are those that are controlled by dictators or other oppressive governments. Money given to these countries helps these dictators stay in power, and as a result prolong poverty. ((I dont know about other communities, but after the tsunami, there were several fund raisers in my area where several millions of dollars were raised to send overseas. Also, anyone can check some statistics to see that tax cuts create surges in charitible contributions.)) "Little else is requisite to carry a state to the highest degree of opulence from the lowest barbarism, but peace, easy taxes and a tolerable administration of justice." – Adam Smith, Wealth of Nations |
| Date | 23:56:34, July 14, 2005 CET | From | Cooperative Commonwealth Federation | To | Debating the Stop Legalized Theft |
| Message | If tax money going to aid is theft, then any taxes of any sort are theft. Since TiC accepts taxation, then it has no right to declare one sort of tax "theft" and another sort to be legitimate. If we can't tax for aid, then what gives us the right to tax for anything at all? Individual charity does not have any effect in addressing structural poverty. Sad, but true. Rich countries became rich in a world economy where they drained the wealth of other countries. No serious historian would argue that economic development took place only in hermetically sealed national containers. It took place in a globalizing arena where some countries advanced while others fell behind. There was a massive transfer of wealth from Africa to Europe, and especially from the Americas to Europe, that fuelled the European industrial revolution and allowed them to overtake what was then the rich part of the world: Asia. The involuntary transfer of wealth from South to North dwarfs the tiny flow of aid from North to South today. Even today, more wealth flows from South to North. There are dictators in some countries. Lodamun's foreign aid law specifically insists on anti-corruption and human rights standards. We are not aiding dictators. Our aid prioritizes non-governmental cooperatives in other countries, as well as rehabilitation in areas like war-torn Gaduridos. Aid is not forced on unwilling recipients: it is a collaborative effort for economic advance by both donor and recipient, who are "partners in progress." |
| Date | 01:10:11, July 15, 2005 CET | From | Tuesday Is Coming | To | Debating the Stop Legalized Theft |
| Message | TiC accepts taxation? We support a minimum level of taxation, but prefer that things are paid for using user fees or similar methods. We don't really consider whether the government may or may not be able to do something better until after we ask the overriding question of "Is this the government's responsibility, that no other entity can rightly accomplish?" Many, not any, forms of taxes are theft. Taxes for sports clubs, taxes for welfare, taxes for international welfare, taxes to protect individuals from themselves(drug enforcement), taxes for subsidies or special interests. Basically, any tax used to pay for something not directly used and approved of by the one who paid for it. There is not, or should not, be any "divine right of majorities". No majority should be allowed to spend the money of the whole simply because they think that certain expenses are a good idea. ((OOC, real world: We agree that the African slave trade, the opium war, and several other things were morally wrong. However, we do not credit these with the economic growth of the nations that did the exploitation. The United States did not reach its full growth potential economically until after the civil war. Likewise, the former colonial state of many nations failed to stop them from becoming major world powers.)) The solution is not to reverse the exploitation, but to eliminate it. "There are dictators in some countries. Lodamun's foreign aid law specifically insists on anti-corruption and human rights standards. We are not aiding dictators. Our aid prioritizes non-governmental cooperatives in other countries, as well as rehabilitation in areas like war-torn Gaduridos. Aid is not forced on unwilling recipients: it is a collaborative effort for economic advance by both donor and recipient, who are "partners in progress."" How do you determine who is oppressive or dictatorial? Nearly all modern dictators call themselves "President", and claim to do wonderful things. ((Saddam Hussein/Castro for example)). Who decides what is corruption or whether human rights standards have been met? Wouldnt worse conditions be cause for more aid? |
| Date | 01:11:35, July 15, 2005 CET | From | Tuesday Is Coming | To | Debating the Stop Legalized Theft |
| Message | From my party page, posted soon after forming the party: "Tuesday Is Coming is a party that will strive to make the government do what it is supposed to do: protect the life, liberty, and property of each of its citizens. And nothing more. We oppose all government taxation, borrowing, and spending, with the possible exceptions being the military, law enforcement, and civil dispute resolution. All bills will first be questioned: Does the government have a right to interfere here? Then: Does the government have a responsibility to interfere here?" |
| Date | 01:16:02, July 15, 2005 CET | From | Adam Smith Party | To | Debating the Stop Legalized Theft |
| Message | We have news for yoc CCF. TiC does not accept any form of involuntary taxation as we have discovered in other discussions. The only form of taxation that we hve been able to get TiC to accept is a luxury purchase tax. On to you point about the history of the world. ((Is this IC or OOC? I assume it is OOC as it refers to Europe and America etc. The aquisition of wealth did not directly involve the transference of wealth by force from one location to another. It depended upon the evolution of economic systems, the appreciation of the market economics etc. The Wealth of Nations full title is "An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations" and it does a pretty good job of explaining the nature and causes of some countries being rich. You should try reading it. It is not a matter of taking away something from somewhere else. Even if it were, this would not create an obligation for us to push our values on those other cultures. What we need to do to eradicate poverty in most of the edevelopping world is to eliminate our trade barriers and stop out corportate subsidies. That is all. No aid is actually needed. A writing off of the debt that developping countries were obliged to take on by the colonial system is fair and I agree with that, but non specific aid is simply wrong for everyone involved.)) If our law insists that the recipient shall not be corrupt and that they obey human rights then this is not unconditional aid as our current law states, It is aid tied to certain conditions. The idea that a country would turn down the aid and make the effort themselves is as ridiculous as the idea that if someone were to offer you a comfortable unconditional income that you would actually still work hard at anything. The only way we can help these countries is by levelling the trading playing fielsd and removing all aid. |
| Date | 02:09:43, July 15, 2005 CET | From | Tuesday Is Coming | To | Debating the Stop Legalized Theft |
| Message | "We have news for yoc CCF. TiC does not accept any form of involuntary taxation as we have discovered in other discussions. The only form of taxation that we hve been able to get TiC to accept is a luxury purchase tax." Sales or excise taxes, such as those included in the Narcotics Legalization Act, are considered to be at least partially voluntary, as well as being able to be channeled for a specific purpose related to the item taxed(gasoline taxes used for roads for example). We oppose all taxation or spending that is inconsistent with our principles of what the government has a just responsibility to handle. This means defense of our nations citizens from other individuals and other nations. If taxation is absolutely the only way to pay for this, then yes, we do support a level of taxation sufficient for this alone. |
| Date | 19:11:23, July 15, 2005 CET | From | Tuesday Is Coming | To | Debating the Stop Legalized Theft |
| Message | Amendment added to address: "Individual charity does not have any effect in addressing structural poverty. Sad, but true. " While we disagree, we do feel that individuals should have the ultimate choice over how their money is spent, even if it means chanelling it through the government. We do not object to foreign aid per se, ((I personally donated a lot of money, through the red cross and otherwise, after the tsunami)), we object to the usage of compulsory taxation to pay for it. Especially because there is much evidence that indicates that foreign aid accomplishes the opposite of its goal. However, this is not, in our opinion, any of Parliament's concern. Our concern here is whether we wish to force others to pay for it. We do not. However we do not want to take away the ability of them to do so. The amendment: "A government agency, established for this purpose, shall continue to accept voluntary donations that shall be directed into foreign aid. This agency shall be funded entirely without tax money, a portion of donations shall be used instead. Each year, there shall be a report to the public detailing how the money was spent. Let this bill not be construed as to mean that we oppose all foreign aid, we just oppose compulsory taxation used for foreign aid. If this bill passes, citizens will have maximum choice over how their money is spent toward other countries, even if they would prefer that a government entity directs it." |
| Date | 00:33:44, July 17, 2005 CET | From | Tuesday Is Coming | To | Debating the Stop Legalized Theft |
| Message | I think I will submit this soon....any objections or further debate? |
| Date | 18:52:25, July 17, 2005 CET | From | Tuesday Is Coming | To | Debating the Stop Legalized Theft |
| Message | Ok...Fine... Voting then If you vote no, please explain why so that if it fails I can know why...((I probably wont respond for awhile...)) Thanks.. |
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Voting
| Vote | Seats | |||
| yes |
Total Seats: 137 | |||
| no | Total Seats: 125 | |||
| abstain | Total Seats: 175 |
| Random fact: Dorvik is a nation based on Germanic and old Prussian cultures, it is located on the far north of Artania, making it an almost arctic nation. |
| Random quote: "If it were proved to me that in making war, my ideal had a chance of being realized, I would still say 'No' to war, for one does not create human society on mounds of corpses." - Louis Lecoin |