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Bill: Civilian service bill
Details
Submitted by[?]: People's Freedom Party
Status[?]: defeated
Votes: This is an ordinary bill. It requires more yes votes than no votes. This bill will not pass any sooner than the deadline.
Voting deadline: April 2342
Description[?]:
| As democratic nation we should allow our citizens to decide for themselves if they want to play an active part in a military that is probably acting against their interests or believes. There is also the significant advantage for our economy to be considered: civilian servants make up a cheap working force in many other countries that prodive important and often neglected services to older or weaker citizens, at the same time young adults make first experiences with being a productive member of our society. |
Proposals
Article 1
Proposal[?] to change National service.
Old value:: All adults upon completion of schooling can be required in times of war to serve a term in the military.
Current: All adults upon completion of schooling can be required in times of war to serve a term in the military.
Proposed: All adults upon completion of schooling must serve either a term in the military or a lesser paid term of civilian national service, at their option.
Debate
These messages have been posted to debate on this bill:
| Date | 15:33:47, January 08, 2007 CET | From | National Coalition Party | To | Debating the Civilian service bill |
| Message | The NCP thinks that the conscription service is the best option for the formation of the armed forces of Kanjor in the future when looking the cost-effectiveness relation and we need big, trained reserve to defend the whole country against the threat of Deltaria: local militias are somewhat unorganized, suffer from lack of central command & logistics and are just that, local. In addition the conscription allows us to lower the amount of budget money directed on armed forces and use it for improving the competitiveness of commerce, environmental development, education and health care. Conscription army could restrain more effectively the activity of fanatic militants and party militias which endanger the proper democratic process and society's stability than local militias which are influenced by local party offices. Moreover, in the army men learn many important skills such as first aid, self-discipline, how to survive in nature & extreme conditions, organizational and leadership skills amongst many other things and create strong bond of comradeship with their service companions, all this benefitting the society as a whole. National Service is an alternative for those who don't want to serve the country at military, but are needed in civil sector such as at schools & hospitals. The command of armed forces must be multilateral in the times of peace, including general staff, defence ministry, head of state and also the senate into the decision-making process so that no party can use the armed forces for own selfish & dangerous gains (coup de`tat for example). |
| Date | 20:18:39, January 08, 2007 CET | From | People's Freedom Party | To | Debating the Civilian service bill |
| Message | We don't see how forcing people into an army against their believes is efficient or democratical. The current laws may provide a larger number for reserve, but in modern wars it is not numbers that are decisive but well-trained and equipped professional soldiers, which is something we can afford considering the amount of money we spend on the military each year. |
| Date | 23:06:19, January 08, 2007 CET | From | National Coalition Party | To | Debating the Civilian service bill |
| Message | The representative of PFP got our stance wrong. The act isn't forcing anyone into the army, but we presume that most propably the majority of population decides to serve conscription service rather than civil service, given the level of patriotism of this country and benefits provided by the army. Kanjor is currently using about 25-30 % of its national budget on military alone which is too much when there are many other important & topical things which nrequire attention like education, science & technology, health care, environment & business competitiveness and as especially, there are cheaper and as efficient way of organizing armed forces: well trained conscription army with good equipment. According to global news, Deltaria is in chaos and there's not much use for top modern & expensive weaponry if there aren't enough soldiers to use them. Succesful defence is based on succesful combination: big & well-trained reserve, good & working weaponry & patriotism of soldiers & civilians. If this bill gets the approval of the senate, the NCP proposes that due to the formation of conscription army, most able local militia officers & NCO's will be integrated into the professional part of new conscription army and rest transferred into the reserve. Furthermore, we propose that the funding for the military will be phased into 60 billion rupees at next year and in two more years, into 55 billion rupees as the military expenses gets lower due to decreased salary & benefit expenses and selling of extra of top modern equipment for our neighbours. By 2350 the funding for armed forces would be kept at the level of 40-45 billion rupees which is well adequate according to defence analysts hired by NCP for studying the possibility of conscription army. If PFP don't accept this conclusion, then propably it shouldn't have brought up the bill which isn't just about civil service, but also about conscription army (partial one at very least). |
| Date | 02:28:42, January 09, 2007 CET | From | People's Freedom Party | To | Debating the Civilian service bill |
| Message | I agree that we spend too much money on the military and believe that this bill will help to solve this problem as a professional army, or at least a smaller conscription army is not as expensive as one that requires all citizens to serve in the military. If we reduce spending on our military we either have to reduce it's size or quality. Recent wars have proven that quality is much more important that size, so this bill doesn't seem to be against the amibtions of the NCP. |
| Date | 06:55:25, January 09, 2007 CET | From | Partie Patriotique de Kanjor | To | Debating the Civilian service bill |
| Message | We diagree with this proposal for a number of reasons. 1/ We see no reason to compel citizens into service (whether civilain or military) without necessity. 2/ The current Kanjoran system of a professional army backed by the trained militia of the provinces (which is in fact a reserve system) we see as the most effecive and least costly option available 3/ We do not believe the changes proposed will save money at all (any 'paper' savings made would be eaten up by increased administration costs). 4/ This proposal seems to be a 'stalking horse' for a plan to cut the military spending of the confederation. |
| Date | 12:55:35, January 09, 2007 CET | From | Les Verts du Kanjor | To | Debating the Civilian service bill |
| Message | Like the PPK, we see no reason to compel citizens into service without necessity. We do not support such fascist tendencies in state organisation. |
| Date | 15:05:24, January 09, 2007 CET | From | National Coalition Party | To | Debating the Civilian service bill |
| Message | Les Verts seem to forget that the citizens of Kanjor have two distinct choices as the proposition points out: " All adults upon completion of schooling must serve EITHER a term in the military OR a lesser paid term of civilian national service, at their option" where they not only learn many valuable skills & form new social relations, but also make their duty for their home country. Besides, as the representative of the PPK pointed out, provincial militia has already conscription system in use. (OOC: we need to solve what kind of armed forces Kanjor really has: moderately big professional army with top-modern equipment & provincial militia OR small professional army with top-modern equipment & big provincial militia which uses some sort of conscription system. Even though this bill was originally meant to be civil service bill, it also concerns conscription as the new proposition points out) |
| Date | 15:13:21, January 09, 2007 CET | From | Les Verts du Kanjor | To | Debating the Civilian service bill |
| Message | The NCP is mistaken if they believe we overlooked that issue. Citizens are still being compelled into a service for the State, which be believe denies them essential freedoms of choice. |
| Date | 15:35:56, January 09, 2007 CET | From | Partie Patriotique de Kanjor | To | Debating the Civilian service bill |
| Message | (ooc: Kanjoran Army and equipment: I believe that the equipment of the Kanjoran army is a mixture of modern (eg our Chencka MBT) and older equipment (I think this more realistic than just declaring everything is modern). The standing army is relatively small 10 Infantry Divisions, 3 Armoured Divisions, 2 Marine Divisions, 1 'Foreign Legion Division, and the Krapotka Specia Forces which I think are about 2 Brigades worth. approx 180, 000 men in all. This is backed by the trained Provincial Militias (reserves), which currently number 15 Divisions total approx 150,000 men.) |
| Date | 16:02:13, January 09, 2007 CET | From | Partie Patriotique de Kanjor | To | Debating the Civilian service bill |
| Message | The Prime Minister Ian McDermott rises to speak: Senators., this Bill should be opposed by all parties which care about any of the following. 1/ Civil Liberties: This bill compels a form of compulsory national service without any necessity. 2/ Army Effectiveness: (a) Should large numbers of conscripts choose to serve in the military it would undermine the morale, elan and espirit de corps of our professional army. (b) Should large numbers choose the civilian service option, it in fact weakens our army as we would have a conscript army without any conscripts. (c) By replacing the old provisions of a general call up in the event of war it weakens the army further at a time when the nation is most vulnerable. We urge all parties which have voted yes to this proposal to reconsider. Vote No, for Kanjors sake. |
| Date | 17:18:58, January 09, 2007 CET | From | National Coalition Party | To | Debating the Civilian service bill |
| Message | (OOC: I wonder that if Kanjoran armed forces aren't that mighty, how we can spend about 30 % from the budget on them? modernization of the equipment, repairing of civil war destruction at poor northern provinces and expensive fortifying works or what?) |
| Date | 17:46:04, January 09, 2007 CET | From | Partie Patriotique de Kanjor | To | Debating the Civilian service bill |
| Message | (ooc Its more usual i think to look at military spending as a percentage of the GDP, ours is about 5%, which I think quite reasonable.) |
| Date | 19:26:04, January 09, 2007 CET | From | People's Freedom Party | To | Debating the Civilian service bill |
| Message | In answer to our Prime Minister: 1) The old law had the same problem, this proposal may not be perfect as far as civil liberties are concerned, but it is much better as the current situation as it actually gives our citizens a choice. 2) a) The number of soldiers will, if anything, decrease if we give citizens the choice not to serve instead of forcing them to serve b)If large numbers decide not to serve in the military it will give us the chance to invest the money used right now for training of conscripts for a professional army, which is more useful in a modern war anway c) Modern wars are not decided by unmotivated conscripts but by well-trained and well-equipped soldiers. |
| Date | 02:36:27, January 10, 2007 CET | From | Partie Patriotique de Kanjor | To | Debating the Civilian service bill |
| Message | The current law does not have the sme problem! Currently we may compel military service in time of war only, with this proposal compulsory government service is mandatory all the time. "Modern wars are not decided by unmotivated conscripts but by well-trained and well-equipped soldiers." these are your own words! Will the PFP inform the Senate why they trying to turn the Kanjoran Army into a force of "unmotivated conscripts"? We ask the KCTP to oppose this deliberate weakening of Armed Forces. |
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Voting
| Vote | Seats | |||
| yes | Total Seats: 49 | |||
| no | Total Seats: 176 | |||
| abstain | Total Seats: 0 |
| Random fact: Particracy does not allow role-play that seems to belong to the world of fantasy, science fiction and futuristic speculation. |
| Random quote: "In any country there must be people who have to die. They are the sacrifices any nation has to make to achieve law and order." - Idi Amin |