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Bill: In Anticipation of Cildanian Empire: Potential Amendments
Details
Submitted by[?]: Imperial Cildanian Egoists
Status[?]: defeated
Votes: This bill asks for an amendement to the Constitution. It will require two-thirds of the legislature to vote in favor. This bill will not pass any sooner than the deadline.
Voting deadline: March 2456
Description[?]:
| RESOLVED: That the Cildanian Republic is ended, and shall henceforth be known as the Cildanian Empire |
Proposals
Article 1
Proposal[?] to change The lyrics of the national anthem.
Old value:: Hail Cildania, with your banner of red and blue, May you always strive for freedom, justice and truth. Hail Cildania, land of the free, may our fair country always live in prosperity! Cildania, Cildania, jewel of the sea! Cildana, Cildania, is the place of liberty! Unity and Rights and Freedom, For the Cildanian Republic, Brethren with heart and hand, Let us all strive for that! Unity and Rights and Freedom, Are the foundation for happiness, Bloom in the glow of happiness Bloom Cildanian Republic!
Current:
| Arise O Cildania Our national call Obey To serve our father's land With love, strength and faith The labour of our heroes past Shall be our propelling force All hail God almighty for He has given us Freedom, Justice and Peace |
Proposed:
| Hail Cildania, the red and the blue, In the service of Liberty, eternally true. Hail Cildania, land of the Free, True to the Self we always shall be. Cildania, Cildania, Jewel of the Sea! Cildana, Cildania, a home for the Free! Liberty for all, from Cildanian Empire, A beacon of Hope, to all we Inspire! Only from the Self can happiness grow Unfettered citizens make prosperity flow A nation of Freedom, a Nation of Greed The blessings of Liberty we shall not impede! |
Article 2
Proposal[?] to change The title of the head of government, who chairs the cabinet.
Old value:: Chancellor
Current: Chairman of the Presidium of the Great Cildanian Legislative Body
Proposed: Consul
Article 3
Proposal[?] to change The formal title of the Head of State.
Old value:: President
Current: Supreme Chancellor of the Great Cildanian Legislative Body
Proposed: Emperor
Article 4
Proposal[?] to change The official title of the legislative assembly.
Old value:: Senate
Current: Kunsill tad-Deputati (Council of Deputies)
Proposed: Council of Lords
Article 5
Proposal[?] to change The national motto.
Old value:: Unity and Freedom!
Current: Mill-baħar (From the sea.)
Proposed: Libertas æternus!
Article 6
Proposal[?] to change The official title of subnational entities, also known as regions.
Old value:: Canton
Current: Prinċipat (Principality)
Proposed: Duchy
Debate
These messages have been posted to debate on this bill:
| Date | 17:55:20, September 13, 2007 CET | From |  Imperial Cildanian Egoists | To | Debating the In Anticipation of Cildanian Empire: Potential Amendments |
| Message | Thoughts? |
| Date | 18:03:49, September 13, 2007 CET | From | Justice League of Cildania | To | Debating the In Anticipation of Cildanian Empire: Potential Amendments |
| Message | I think the counting chickens before they hatch cliche applies here. I like the motto though. |
| Date | 18:15:28, September 13, 2007 CET | From | Imperial Cildanian Egoists | To | Debating the In Anticipation of Cildanian Empire: Potential Amendments |
| Message | That is why it has not been put to a vote, and unless the election goes properly, it never (or at least not until the next election) shall be. We merely thought it prudent to get the practical work of hammering out what Empire will look like done, so that when the day does come passage will be swift and unimpeded by last minute debate. Thoughts on the anthem? |
| Date | 18:35:23, September 13, 2007 CET | From | Justice League of Cildania | To | Debating the In Anticipation of Cildanian Empire: Potential Amendments |
| Message | The last stanza of the Cildanian anthem has always bothered me, but yours needs work too. "Limit the Self? No. No. No!" has gotta go |
| Date | 19:27:56, September 13, 2007 CET | From | Imperial Cildanian Egoists | To | Debating the In Anticipation of Cildanian Empire: Potential Amendments |
| Message | Unfortunately our party lacks individuals with both the talent to write lyrics and the desire to participate in the writing of an anthem. We set the standard at merely being more philosophically correct without being lyrically worse. Perhaps "Unfettered citizens make prosperity flow" as an alternative to that line? |
| Date | 23:13:04, September 13, 2007 CET | From | Action | To | Debating the In Anticipation of Cildanian Empire: Potential Amendments |
| Message | Will the council of lords be composed of peers or will it be a misnomer simply changed to mark a change in the senates venue to the old St Origen House of Lords, or perhaps some new premises. If the council is elected by the same process as is currently the form then the government has no right to call it by such a title. Grand Duke is a title which one cannot be elected into and is held for life and then either abolished or turned hereditary, With our monarchs long lost, and without any heir to either king or prince with enough claim to the throne to directly challenge for power there is no hope for such a title to be justly used without considerable constitutional changes. And as to Duchy the claim is quite ridiculous, there are over sixteen redundant duchies on Cildania, over six hundred baronets and an unnamed number of estates. Canton works both with the current system and if someone were to truly revive the old ways, works quite nicely if a heir to each of the Five great houses of Cildania could be found, and it is a well established fact that Ylrith is long dead. To adopt the titles of Monarchism and Antiquity is both impractical as they bear no resemblance to either ICE or current national policy, and close to being a profane and outrageous insult to the memory of monarchism and all surviving peers and lords. We and many others will fight over this absolutely. Chancellor works perfectly under almost any system of conventional rule, and as for the motto, a capital ash would not go amiss. The National anthem proposal is a bit weak, and perhaps Hail Motherland, or a new anthem or one dragged from antiquity would better suit Cildania fair. -Rothschild |
| Date | 23:33:20, September 13, 2007 CET | From | Imperial Cildanian Egoists | To | Debating the In Anticipation of Cildanian Empire: Potential Amendments |
| Message | OOC: Lol IC: Apologies for the weakness of the anthem, but we in ICE found the current rendition to be lacking in both principle and style, and felt we could at least correct the first, if not the second. We would be most interested if something more appropriate could be dug out from the mists of antiquity. Unfortunately, the constraints of the modern world do not allow us to complete abolish democratic institutions, but still the party wishes to do as best we can. The naming of our ruling body as a Council of Lords, while not referring to the historical peerage in fact, attempts to do so in spirit, and does adhere to one of the modern definitions of "Lord": a person who has authority, control, or power over others; a master, chief, or ruler. Perhaps rather than Grand Duke or Chancellor, we could go with something from our national heritage, such as Rhaglyw, meaning Governor or foremost leader. |
| Date | 23:55:41, September 13, 2007 CET | From | Action | To | Debating the In Anticipation of Cildanian Empire: Potential Amendments |
| Message | OOC- If were going with something celtic, i know a little welsh. But itd be better to just have the title in english as the most of men who read it would prefer mothers tounge Bryfan, ruler of fools Cadgwinfael, king of misplaced lunatics Or simply just sick Grand in front of Chancellor, its what the germans do everythime their worried that people arnt taking them seriously. |
| Date | 00:01:49, September 14, 2007 CET | From | Imperial Cildanian Egoists | To | Debating the In Anticipation of Cildanian Empire: Potential Amendments |
| Message | OOC: Yeah, I'm getting all my welsh from an online dictionary, lol. Chancellor just feels so.... namby-pamby. |
| Date | 00:30:55, September 14, 2007 CET | From | Action | To | Debating the In Anticipation of Cildanian Empire: Potential Amendments |
| Message | OOC- i dare you to say that to Otho von Bismarck. ive got a little book a boys names printing in Cardiff in 1960 by a small printing house on the popular names of the period and their origin and girl whos welsh herself and has the greenest eyes and will translate anything if you tell her so. |
| Date | 03:20:20, September 14, 2007 CET | From | Imperial Cildanian Egoists | To | Debating the In Anticipation of Cildanian Empire: Potential Amendments |
| Message | We realize this bill will reset to debate when the election intervenes, but we wish to judge to temperature of public opinion, and parties are also more likely to pay attention to a bill up for vote than one merely in debate. Please, we wish criticism, constructive and otherwise. |
| Date | 04:21:52, September 14, 2007 CET | From | War is Peace Party | To | Debating the In Anticipation of Cildanian Empire: Potential Amendments |
| Message | The republic will never fall to the likes of you, you monarchist! |
| Date | 04:35:31, September 14, 2007 CET | From | Imperial Cildanian Egoists | To | Debating the In Anticipation of Cildanian Empire: Potential Amendments |
| Message | You say that like it is a bad thing. Monarchy is vastly superior to democracy. In monarchy those who rule are raised from birth to do so, and in the nobler families they are so raised with a sense of their obligations to the people they rule. In democracy, those who are best at manipulating and pandering to the momentary and irrational desires of "the people" are elected to rule, without ever being trained to do so, and without being required to at any point demonstrate any kind of qualification. In feudal systems, the quality of the system rests on the quality of the individuals who make up the system. In democracy, the system itself is fatally flawed, and it's nature is such that it is virtually impossible for individuals of true quality to ever attain elected position. OOC: I 100% believe everything I just wrote by the way, lol |
| Date | 04:42:27, September 14, 2007 CET | From | Action | To | Debating the In Anticipation of Cildanian Empire: Potential Amendments |
| Message | Absolute Monarchy without the support of a constitution and democratic base is only the superior system of government where the mass of the people are uneducated so that only those of breeding have the skills and the monarch-estates are trained from birth to the duty. In a modern society where all have the skills and the educational background to understand the concepts of the state it is vastly inferior to a system of free elections where the fittest to rule rises to power. |
| Date | 06:05:19, September 14, 2007 CET | From | 2ème PPPP | To | Debating the In Anticipation of Cildanian Empire: Potential Amendments |
| Message | So much for freedom huh. I get the feeling that you're just being an idiot, but if you truly do believe what you just said, ICE guy, well, it almost makes me believe in the concept of purging. By the way, now that your people are enslaved by a despot, the great nation of Kanjor may want to (hypothetically) liberate them. |
| Date | 06:44:06, September 14, 2007 CET | From | War is Peace Party | To | Debating the In Anticipation of Cildanian Empire: Potential Amendments |
| Message | To quote Winston Churchill "Democracy is the worst form of government... except for all the others." I do not deny that democracy is in perfect, only that monarchy is any better. Choosing your ruler using hereditary means will insure that you end up with a leader like Louis XVI. |
| Date | 07:15:43, September 14, 2007 CET | From | Marxist-Leninist Happiness Front | To | Debating the In Anticipation of Cildanian Empire: Potential Amendments |
| Message | So this is where we've come to. Where our set of capitalists has gotten so bad and the working classes have gotten so riled up that capitalists from abroad are threatening to invade to set up a more moderate program. Should we see them as liberators who are the lesser of two evils? Or do we see them only forstalling revolution? We are a people's party and we do hear the suffering of the people. So we cannot thumb our noses at the prospect of reform even if it is just a bandaid that puts off the inevitable glorious reckoning. If your country is serious and treats the working class parties with respect there certainly is room for further discussion. |
| Date | 07:25:23, September 14, 2007 CET | From | 2ème PPPP | To | Debating the In Anticipation of Cildanian Empire: Potential Amendments |
| Message | I will bring this up for discussion. Although my own party is quite pacifist, (note the "Paix") the parties in my nation with more power than me are much more militant and I think a military coup to ensure democracy and true progress might just be possible. |
| Date | 07:48:46, September 14, 2007 CET | From | Action | To | Debating the In Anticipation of Cildanian Empire: Potential Amendments |
| Message | Any foreign intervention will be moderate and regulated by the a United Council of the Cildanian parties who are opposed to the co-alition, or else the intervention will find itself without the support of the population it wishes to liberate. The Council, in this proposal, will be built of three members of each member party, a representive of the civilian police force and the Minister-Elect from each of the five provinces. The Intervention will only be suported by Action if the Co-Alitions absolute control over the press and distribution of information leads the forcing of a constitutional majority in their favour in the October Elections. Although it is already plainly riggered in their favour, Democracy must be allowed its final act of self-salvation before we ask for its resucsitation. That is the stance of Action at this time, personally, i beleive that we have already fallen to far from the light but the party seniority dissagrees. -Tombs |
| Date | 08:14:21, September 14, 2007 CET | From | Imperial Cildanian Egoists | To | Debating the In Anticipation of Cildanian Empire: Potential Amendments |
| Message | So much hatred and ignorance demanding response. First, to the foreign interloper trying to foment dissent in order to make us easier to conquer, you are (perhaps intentionally?) confusing the methodology of government, and the goals of government. The argument of feudalism vs. democracy has absolutely nothing to do with liberty, welfare, physical infrastructure, environmentalism, or any other potential goal of government you could name. Democracy, whether "true" or republicanism being called by a different name, feudalism, technocracy (rule by scientists), these are all things which focus solely, *solely*, on the method by which governing officials are chosen. It is entirely possible to a tyrannical democracy: in fact, most of the great tyrants of the 20th century were originally elected. It is equally possible to have a dictatorship, whether hereditary or as the result of a coup, that embraces superior policies to many elected governments. There is no greater theoretical friend to liberty than a libertarian dictator. To automatically equate lack of popular voting to enslavement is unsupportable fallacy. As to the argument against monarchy from our colleagues in "Action", we feel the need to repeat it before we dissect it. "In a modern society where all have the skills and the educational background to understand the concepts of the state it is vastly inferior to a system of free elections where the fittest to rule rises to power." Wow. If any of the premises which are assumed, without factual basis, in that statement were true, then we might, *might*, be forced to agree. First there is the assumption that everyone who votes has the skills and educational background to understand the concepts of the state. Ridiculous. Graduates of "modern" public education can seldom name any government official of their nation other than the very highest, and him only because he is on television a lot. They seldom know anything of substance about the court system, very little about the election process, not even the number of legislators in their country--not even most of their constitutional rights, whatever they may be. Also, the vast majority of them don't bother to vote, and most of those who do vote take little or no time to educate themselves on any of the candidates. In a certain sense democracies are hereditary systems, because a substantial majority of the minority who do vote adopt one of two tactics, depending on their relationship with their parents: they either vote along the line of the party their parents supported, or they vote along the line of the party which most disagreed with their parents. In both cases, little, if any, real thought is devoted to the decision. So, as a practical matter, most potential voters have not developed the skills or taken advantage of education in a way which leads to the possibility of good decisions. Most do not even make a reasonable attempt to ensure quality in their decisions. Then there is the second contention, that if this mythical informed and rational electorate has dominion, then the fittest will rise to power. Two primary problems with this argument. First, those who are most qualified, in terms of ability, to manage positions of governmental importance, never run for office. They take jobs that aren't so thankless, where their every decision isn't dissected by millions of armchair critics doing monday-morning quarterbacking. Where they get paid what their abilities are worth, and their privacy is not constantly invaded. Second, even if the "fittest" were to run, they would probably never manage to get elected, at least not for very long. The fittest tend to not only have greater ability, but greater character, which leads to greater honesty. There is no greater sin in a democracy than to be an honest politician. Voters don't want honesty: they want politicians who will tell them what they want to hear, even when what they want to hear is stupid and wrong. The qualities which lead to the attainment of high office in democratic systems are an ability to lie and not get caught, the ability to convince people you care when you actually don't, the ability to change your opinion at the drop of a hat, while making everyone believe you have stayed consistent on "core principles". Honest politicians don't last long in office, because their rhetoric isn't as sunny, they don't deliver as much money to the home state (because they are only supporting bills that they think are actually good for their country), and they don't kiss ass. Successful politicians are fear-mongers, who rally the voters by getting them to hate the opposition. Successful politicians become so, and remain so, not by being the most fit for the noble endeavor of public office, but by being the least fit. Argue if you want that the evils of democracy are less than the evils of other forms of government. Rational people can disagree civilly on that issue. But, please, do not argue that selection of government officials by popularity contest results in those who are most fit to lead and serve the public attaining office, because that is lie which should be among the most offensive possible to any thinking being who cares about quality of government, the use of logic in national affairs, and the cause of liberty. |
| Date | 08:22:47, September 14, 2007 CET | From | Imperial Cildanian Egoists | To | Debating the In Anticipation of Cildanian Empire: Potential Amendments |
| Message | A postscript before we put away our soapbox and catch our breath. The greatest possible political argument for smaller government in a democracy, is the "quality" of the people making decisions for the government. It is entirely possible that many libertarians come to their philosophy because even when they agree with the aims of government, or with a theoretical duty of government to act on some specific problem, they have a realistic appreciation of government's lack of ability to do so in a way that does not cause more harm than good. This is the great evil of democracy, that it fully embraces mediocrity in its leaders. So does the fear of great evil from dictatorship forever condemn democratic nations to never, ever, have even the slightest opportunity to achieve great good. |
| Date | 09:04:31, September 14, 2007 CET | From | Marxist-Leninist Happiness Front | To | Debating the In Anticipation of Cildanian Empire: Potential Amendments |
| Message | We'll agree with you that democracy is merely a tool rather a goal. What matters is not the tool that takes you towards that goal but the goal itself. That is the historical mistake of revisionist socialists and social democrats. They delude themselves into thinking democracy itself is the goal rather than building a proletariat state. We have a program of action not just words. If we can make gains through the ballot box we'll use it. If not we'll use other methods.. Our ultimate goal is a dicatorship of the proletariat with the vanguard of the people, the communist party, standing at it's head. But as we approach that goal we're open to using different tactics as the situation avails itself. So the question is if foreign powers are going to start placing pressure on Cildania where do we stand. We're an internationalist party and ultimately just see two different strands of capitalism squabbling. We see what they are offering. So far we're agnostic. So we ask what is it that you offer us and our constituents? You'll make a much stronger case for your side with democracy than without. |
| Date | 09:05:55, September 14, 2007 CET | From | Marxist-Leninist Happiness Front | To | Debating the In Anticipation of Cildanian Empire: Potential Amendments |
| Message | We'll agree with you that democracy is merely a tool rather a goal. What matters is not the tool that takes you towards that goal but the goal itself. That is the historical mistake of revisionist socialists and social democrats. They delude themselves into thinking democracy itself is the goal rather than building a proletariat state. We have a program of action not just words. If we can make gains through the ballot box we'll use it. If not we'll use other methods.. Our ultimate goal is a dicatorship of the proletariat with the vanguard of the people, the communist party, standing at it's head. But as we approach that goal we're open to using different tactics as the situation avails itself. So the question is if foreign powers are going to start placing pressure on Cildania where do we stand. We're an internationalist party and ultimately just see two different strands of capitalism squabbling. We see what they are offering. So far we're agnostic. So we ask what is it that you offer us and our constituents? You'll make a much stronger case for your side with democracy than without. |
| Date | 17:12:49, September 14, 2007 CET | From | Peoples Revolutionary Front | To | Debating the In Anticipation of Cildanian Empire: Potential Amendments |
| Message | How stupid & monarchaic of you. |
| Date | 08:36:41, September 15, 2007 CET | From | War is Peace Party | To | Debating the In Anticipation of Cildanian Empire: Potential Amendments |
| Message | "Also, the vast majority of them don't bother to vote" since when is less than 20% a vast majority? Over 80% of our populace vote in every election so what the hell are you talking about? |
| Date | 17:31:31, September 15, 2007 CET | From | Imperial Cildanian Egoists | To | Debating the In Anticipation of Cildanian Empire: Potential Amendments |
| Message | OOC: The quoted statement was a reference to how democracy actually works in the real world, when a programmer hasn't fabricated a fairy-tale active voting population. Also, even if the 80% figure were a realistic one in real world terms, it would not invalidate any of the other listed criticisms. |
| Date | 19:24:41, September 15, 2007 CET | From | 2ème PPPP | To | Debating the In Anticipation of Cildanian Empire: Potential Amendments |
| Message | "The first round saw a very high turnout of 85% — 37.6 million of the 44 million electorate voted from a population of 62 million." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_presidential_election,_2007 It's only Americans who don't vote. |
| Date | 14:52:51, September 16, 2007 CET | From | Action | To | Debating the In Anticipation of Cildanian Empire: Potential Amendments |
| Message | OOC- the ICE are unable to realise that the world does not work in all the ways of America and that the policies of the 'american dream' could possibily have any fault, Unable to comprehend that the thought-processes and dreams of the Americans could in any way differ to that of a civilised people. One is conditioned to the society in which he lives, his thoughts and beleifs shaped by those of his family and upbringing. The concept that people may value their lives and the lives of their family over currency is incomprhendible to the leaders of ICE, That is the key fault of the American people, it is not a reason it dispise them, but reason to pity that their eyes are so dimmed that they cannot see the light beyond the propagandarian American Dream. |
| Date | 16:40:25, September 16, 2007 CET | From | Justice League of Cildania | To | Debating the In Anticipation of Cildanian Empire: Potential Amendments |
| Message | Please mind the ad hominem attacks on a party's real person, that's when moderators get called in. I'd agree Americans on average act complacent and willfully ignorant on politics, but that's not some cultural inferiority, it's because for the most part they're fine with the way things are running. France on the other hand is circling the drain culturally and economically; so french voters are understandably more inclined to take notice and action. |
| Date | 07:24:37, September 17, 2007 CET | From | Action | To | Debating the In Anticipation of Cildanian Empire: Potential Amendments |
| Message | I was never implying that it was an inferiority, There is not a nation in the world which does not suffer a similar condition, It is just that the American example is the most obvious due to their media domination over the western world which drives the nationals of so many states to think 'American.' as did the colonials under british or french domination. Personally i prefered british rule as it emplace the morality of the Empire and atleast i could understand the accents. The Swiss are my favourite example of a democratic society as the system is somewhat fantastic although one does get the impression that it wouldnt work outside of switzerland as it takes considerable decades of conditioning to become efficent. There is a word for what im getting at, and i know it. But its just not here at the moment. It'll turn up. no worries. |
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Voting
| Vote | Seats | ||||||
| yes | Total Seats: 60 | ||||||
| no |
Total Seats: 351 | ||||||
| abstain |
Total Seats: 14 |
| Random fact: When you join the game, you will find yourself with only zero seats. That's because your party's representatives haven't been elected yet. You need to establish your party's position on issues by proposing several bills that your party wants passed and sending them to vote. This raises your visibility and if you do it enough, you will win seats at the next election. |
| Random quote: "The free market is ugly and stupid, like going to the mall; the unfree market is just as ugly and just as stupid, except there is nothing in the mall, and if you don't go there, they shoot you." - P. J. O'Rourke |