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Bill: ARM -= The L'olam Question =-
Details
Submitted by[?]: Archon Revolutionary Militia
Status[?]: passed
Votes: This bill is a resolution. It requires more yes votes than no votes. This bill will not pass any sooner than the deadline.
Voting deadline: July 2572
Description[?]:
| "In return for peace and possibly protection (depending on how Beiteynu feels about the war), L'olam will: 1) Not produce, store, buy, or sell any weapons of mass destruction, and the power of tactical nukes shall be capped at 10 kilotons. 2) Shrink its borders in line with the L'olam border correction act. 3) All corporations operating in both L'olam AND Beiteynu shall follow the corporate tax policy of Beiteynu for all profits made. 4) The Beiteynuese army be given military access to the region, and permited to pursue criminals into L'olam. 5) L'olam remains independent, but shall comply with the foreign policies of Beiteynu. 6) As per the original treaty, any act illegal in Beiteynu would be illegal for a Beiteynuese citizen to commit in L'olam. Those finding these terms acceptable, vote in favor." -Judy Gottlos, Head Archon of the ARM |
Proposals
Debate
These messages have been posted to debate on this bill:
| Date | 14:50:23, May 03, 2008 CET | From | HaLeumit Tikvah | To | Debating the ARM -= The L'olam Question =- |
| Message | "I say we give the immigrants a three month deadline to leave and the Agorists to surrender, after which we invade. In th meantime we shall take full control of the skies and set up a naval blockade of L'olam coastline, which will refuse all entry of goods and people to L'olam, while our army maintians control of its borders." -Gen. Yehuda Eitam "Of course, if Galgenstrick and his cronies were to give themselves up to Beiteynuese authorities before then and L'olam recognise itself as part of Beiteynuese Squibble, I am sure a deal could be negotiated." -Rosh HaMemshala Giora Metzger |
| Date | 16:55:32, May 03, 2008 CET | From | Archon Revolutionary Militia | To | Debating the ARM -= The L'olam Question =- |
| Message | [OOC] Seeing that my party is now a totalitarian party, do not relate the portrayal of Agorists characters and their cronies with the ARM. [IC] Ladies and gentlemen, an international satellite transmission: "In the interests of the movement towards freedom, I, Raamiah Galgenstrick, founder of the GJA, founder and current CEO of the GXH-5328, founder of L'olam, and initiator of the Agorist secession, hereby declare myself a political prisoner of the state of the Beiteynese Homeland under the condition that L'olam, whatever the government of Beiteynu may decide to do with it temporarily, shall inevitably remain an anarcho-capitalist state in some shape or form in the end. I hereby command the GXH-5328 to return what amount of the 15 trillion BEI bond money has not been used directly in the form of dominating the Pontesi economy. This amounts to roughly 8 trillion BEI, and the GXH-5328 will pay it fully. As for myself, I hereby renounce my position as CEO of the GXH-5328 and place the organization and all its assets and subsidiaries up for auction to any residents of L'olam not originating from Beiteynu. I have spoken with the other chief members of the Agorist movement who aided me in the founding of L'olam and the GXH-5328, and initiation of the Agorist secession. They have, too, decided to give themselves up to the government of Beiteynu as a sacrifice in defense of the statelessness and capitalism of L'olam. As for recognizing itself as part of the Beiteynuese Squibble Major, I don't believe L'olam could possibly do so officially, because it has no government, and therefore no opinion may be imposed upon anyone else's, and not all people agree. However, I am absolutely certain that the people of L'olam would all agree that they would do absolutely anything in order to keep their anarcho-capitalist society, and they would love to come to a peaceful agreement before all else. Perhaps some sort of correlation on foreign policy on a small level, and all corporations operating in both L'olam and Beiteynu pay taxes on their transactions within L'olam would be appropriate? But I don't know. L'olam, as you obviously know, is disorganized, and we have simply given ourselves up in the hopes of maintaining peace and freedom. We cannot account for anyone else's actions. Because it seems that you would most likely seek just a respect for the sovereignty of Beiteynu and Squibble, and some form of small-scale agreement on foreign policy, it would be best to speak to those that have the police, soldiers, guns, missiles, and nuclear bombs; the property insurance agencies. Their chief interest at this moment is protecting the property of their customers, as they would have to compensate everyone whose property was destroyed or captured by a foreign government, so while obviously they wouldn't give up everyone's property to the state, they really don't want to go to war either, and would seek a peaceful solution. I would refer you to the three largest insurance companies, who collectively control about twelve. percent of the market share, and have great influence over the other insurance companies. These three companies, though they only have twelve percent of the market share, have a cartel called New World Property Agency (NWPA). I will now refer you to their chairman. I now give myself up and have called upon a private police firm to transport me and my colleagues to one of your battleships. They're on-duty uniforms are orange, so they should be easy to pick out and you should not mistake them as hostiles." -Raamiah Galgenstrick, Former CEO & Chairman of the GXH-5328 and Initiator of the Agorist Secession <end transmission> A hail from another transmission line: <A shrewd, intelligent-looking man appears on the screen> "Yes, I see you have blockaded us for the moment. I wish to find a peaceful solution just as much as you do, as property loss compensation gets expensive when you have millions of customers, as are wasting guns, bombs, and nukes on pointless violence. We would also be legally held accountable for every soldier lost in vain, unlike governments that do not have such responsibility. It is in our interests to maintain peace as well as an agreement of any kind that will result in the continuance of anarcho-capitalism in some form or fashion. Do we wish to make a deal?" -Vladimir Harrison, Chairman of the New World Property Agency <end transmission> |
| Date | 17:52:57, May 03, 2008 CET | From | HaLeumit Tikvah | To | Debating the ARM -= The L'olam Question =- |
| Message | "We too hope for a peaceful solution. I cannot speak for the whole of the Beiteynuese government, but the only way my organisation could accept L'olam continuation is under the following conditions: 1)Disarmament of all L'olams military. 2)Shrinking of L'olams borders in line with the L'olam border correction act. 3)L'olams corporations submit to the same tax regulation as those in Beiteynu. 4)The Beiteynuese army be given military access to the region, and permited to pursue criminals into L'olam. 5)L'olam remains independent, but allows its foreign relations to be set by Beiteynu. 6)As per the original treaty, any act illegal in Beiteynu would be illegal for a Beiteynuese citizen to commit in L'olam 7)[OOC: I have a feeling im forgetting something important here; may need to add something later.] How do these terms sound to Mr Harrison?" -Rosh HaMemshala Giora Metzger |
| Date | 19:15:17, May 03, 2008 CET | From | Archon Revolutionary Militia | To | Debating the ARM -= The L'olam Question =- |
| Message | [OOC] <following not affiliated with ARM> [IC] "You were always able to pursue Beiteynuese criminals in L'olam; no one would've stopped you. You also could've punished Beiteynuese citizens for committing crimes of Beiteynu in L'olam once they return. And Beiteynu has always had military access to the region, no one would've stopped you. It is only now that you threaten military action that your forces are forbidden from our lands. But once we come to a peace agreement, your military forces, so long as they do not violate the rights of L'olam residents, are free to enter our lands. We believe that we can comply with all but one and three. As for the first, while we would have no problem with your military freely entering L'olam so long as you do not violate the property rights or individual rights of any L'olam resident, we cannot simply dismantle our military, as it is our defense mechanism. There also comes the problem of crime. If we can't keep militaries, what's to make sure a tyranny won't arise and take control of society? Perhaps it would comfort you to know that there is no threat of any retaliation from an anarcho-capitalist society, and we present no threat to anyone. An anarcho-capitalist society cannot aggress because, (a) the initiation of aggressive force breaks natural law and comes with severe penalties in our society (we would prosecute our own militaries for attacking other nations), and (b) it is simply not profitable to go to war; no one is willing to pay for it. Governments only do it because they're using other peoples' money. If you're concern is that we're a threat, we can assure you that we are not; capitalism would not permit so. And as for the third proposition, we could agree to it if the only L'olam corporations taxed were those that performed business in Beiteynu. Otherwise, corporate tax would interfere with our market forces by killing small business and thereby reducing competition. We would not have a true free market and life would truly be hell. In fact, any taxes would not only make life hell, but it would be violation of our natural rights and of natural law. How can police corporations punish people who steal if everyone is getting their money taken away by force? How would we explain this to the people? However, we are totally open to any propositions that could generate revenue for Beiteynu to be put in its place. Surely you can understand why the first clause is both unnecessary and cannot be fulfilled. As for the third though, while we cannot submit to the same corporate tax as in Beiteynu without killing the free market and turning life in L'olam into hell, we are open to any other conditions that wouldn't interfere with the forces of capitalism or violate natural rights that you might add in its place. We will gladly comply on foreign relations, and while we don't particularly like shrinking the borders, if it is in the name of preserving peace and anarcho-capitalism, we will do it. We hope to continue these talks further until we can come up with mutually beneficial conditions." Optimistically, -James Vladimir Harrison, Chairman of the New World Property Agency |
| Date | 19:25:08, May 03, 2008 CET | From | Archon Revolutionary Militia | To | Debating the ARM -= The L'olam Question =- |
| Message | "We find no problem with the terms, and understand L'olam's objections to the first and third. However, as a replacement for the third condition, we suggest that L'olam tolerate our government to invest in up to one fourth of all public stock in any corporations in L'olam we choose. The return on the investments would be considerably great, and a great supplement to taxation while ensuring the continuance of their capitalist system." -Judy Gottlos, Head Archon of the ARM |
| Date | 16:58:37, May 04, 2008 CET | From | HaLeumit Tikvah | To | Debating the ARM -= The L'olam Question =- |
| Message | "We feel a compromise can be reached. While we can understand why L'olam does not want to completely disarm, however we would like to see some cap on its military; it should notr be allowed to produce, store or buy Nuclear, Biological, Chemical or any other weapons of mass destruction, and Beiteynuese authorities should be allowed access to check this. As for taxes, we can accept reducing that to just corporations to performing business in Beiteynu if the ARMs proposal is accepted. But as I say, I am not representing the Governments viewpoint here, just my own; you shall have to lobby the other membersof the Knesset to gather their support as well." -Rosh HaMemshala Giora Metzger |
| Date | 17:19:45, May 04, 2008 CET | From | Archon Revolutionary Militia | To | Debating the ARM -= The L'olam Question =- |
| Message | [OOC] <following not affiliated with ARM> "We thank the HaLeumit Tikvah for understanding completely. As for the taxation, we can agree to allowing all L'olam corporations doing business in Beiteynu to be taxed for their profits here following Beiteynu's taxation. Entrepreneurial and venture capitalist institutions of L'olam, and foreign businesses will remain untaxed. As for the weapons of mass destruction, we will bar ourselves from biological weapons and chemical weapons of mass destruction. Weapons of mass destruction, by nature, are designed to unconditionally destroy cities and kill civilians as well as military. And as for the nuclear weapons, we agree that most nuclear weapons are designed for mass destruction. However, all the nuclear weapons we keep, that I know of, are weak bombs of about ten kilotons (OOC: less powerful than the Hiroshima bomb) or less. Let me assure you these bombs are too weak for mass destruction. Any weapons of mass destruction of any kind would, because of their nature and intent, inherently violate natural law, and the producers and possessors of such weapons would be tried and executed as terrorists. However, as for our weak bombs, which you may know of by the term "tactical nukes," are very important and essential to a modern military. Tactical nukes are the only missiles capable of efficiently intercepting other nuclear weapons and therefore are ESSENTIAL to our SDI system, which defends us from enemy nuclear attacks. They're also very useful at penetrating very powerful bunkers, and as well as eliminating overwhelmingly large armies and fleets, which could be necessary for us in war since we inherently have a small military because of our size. So, would the HaLeumit Tikvah feel comfortable with perhaps capping the power of nukes, such as no more than eight to ten kilotons?" -James Vladimir Harrison, Chairman of the New World Property Agency |
| Date | 17:24:47, May 04, 2008 CET | From | Archon Revolutionary Militia | To | Debating the ARM -= The L'olam Question =- |
| Message | "We feel that we are in agreement with the ARM, and the proposals seem sensible. As it stand now, in return for peace and possibly protection (depending on how Beiteynu feels about the war), L'olam will: 1) Not produce, store, buy, or sell any weapons of mass destruction, and the power of tactical nukes shall be capped at 10 kilotons. 2) Shrink its borders in line with the L'olam border correction act. 3) All corporations operating in both L'olam AND Beiteynu shall follow the corporate tax policy of Beiteynu for all profits made. 4) The Beiteynuese army be given military access to the region, and permited to pursue criminals into L'olam. 5) L'olam remains independent, but shall comply with the foreign policies of Beiteynu. 6) As per the original treaty, any act illegal in Beiteynu would be illegal for a Beiteynuese citizen to commit in L'olam. Do these sound like sensible proposals? If so, we should write a treaty right away." -Judy Gottlos, Head Archon of the ARM |
| Date | 17:42:50, May 04, 2008 CET | From | Am Echad, Pays Libre | To | Debating the ARM -= The L'olam Question =- |
| Message | I say invasion. We must go into the land and tell them that it is ours now. They lost that privilage when they started the revolution. For Ness Ziona! |
| Date | 17:50:20, May 04, 2008 CET | From | Archon Revolutionary Militia | To | Debating the ARM -= The L'olam Question =- |
| Message | "None of the people that are there now even started the revolution. All the Agorists gave themselves up months ago, and have yet to be tried in a court of law." -Judy Gottlos, Head Archon of the ARM |
| Date | 18:17:02, May 04, 2008 CET | From | Am Echad, Pays Libre | To | Debating the ARM -= The L'olam Question =- |
| Message | THey will be tried in the Supreme Court. But anyway... We will let it stay anarchist and all that other good stuff but they broke internation al law it must come back to our sovergnity. |
| Date | 18:22:39, May 04, 2008 CET | From | Archon Revolutionary Militia | To | Debating the ARM -= The L'olam Question =- |
| Message | "Technically, that's what is basically happening when they comply with our foreign policy. The terms, as they are, would make L'olam part of Squibble, but still independent and anarcho-capitalist at the same time." -Judy Gottlos, Head Archon of the ARM |
| Date | 18:40:21, May 04, 2008 CET | From | Am Echad, Pays Libre | To | Debating the ARM -= The L'olam Question =- |
| Message | No independence just autonomy |
| Date | 15:04:52, May 05, 2008 CET | From | HaLeumit Tikvah | To | Debating the ARM -= The L'olam Question =- |
| Message | "We are happy to accept L'olam under those terms." -Rosh HaMemshala Giora Metzger |
| Date | 20:39:51, May 05, 2008 CET | From | Am Echad, Pays Libre | To | Debating the ARM -= The L'olam Question =- |
| Message | Which terms? |
| Date | 21:53:33, May 05, 2008 CET | From | Archon Revolutionary Militia | To | Debating the ARM -= The L'olam Question =- |
| Message | "The terms that we just listed." -Judy Gottlos, Head Archon of the ARM |
| Date | 14:10:30, May 06, 2008 CET | From | Frente de Libertação de Vintãli | To | Debating the ARM -= The L'olam Question =- |
| Message | "We will not give Beiteynu diplomatic recognition as the government of L'olam. This bill is wildly skewed in favor of Beiteynu and against L'olam. L'olam is not permitted to have WMDs, while Beityenu is. L'olam has to shrink its borders, while Beiteynu can expand its borders. Companies in L'olam would have to pay taxes to Beiteynu, while companies in Beiteynu would not have to pay taxes to L'olam. The Beiteynuese army would be given military access to L'olam, but the L'olam army would not be given military access to Beiteynu. L'olam has to comply with the foreign policies of Beiteynu, but Beiteynu does not have to comply with the foreign policies of L'olam. Acts illegal in Beiteynu would be illegal for a Beiteynuese citizen to commit in L'olam, but acts illegal in L'olam would be legal for a L'olam citizen to commit in Beiteynu. This amounts to putting L'olam under Beiteynuese military rule. Therefore, if this bill passes, we will not give diplomatic recognition to the illegal Beiteynu military dictatorship in L'olam." -- Reynaldo Guerra, Gaduridos Commissar for Foreign Affairs |
| Date | 15:39:55, May 06, 2008 CET | From | HaLeumit Tikvah | To | Debating the ARM -= The L'olam Question =- |
| Message | "May we point out to Mr Guerra that this issue has nothing to do with him? We are negotiating with representatives from L'olam; they are capable of determining what terms areacceptable for themsleves. His intrusion is both unhelpful and not welcome." -Rosh HaMemshala Giora Metzger |
| Date | 00:16:20, May 07, 2008 CET | From | Loyalistische Partei | To | Debating the ARM -= The L'olam Question =- |
| Message | If it will go to war or invasion, Darnussia is more than willing to do our part in the spirit of the Mutual Defence Agreement. Offcourse if we are not wanted by Beiteynu, we will stay out of your business. - Aaron Harzbringer, Darnussian Ambassador to Beiteynu. |
| Date | 03:06:54, May 07, 2008 CET | From | Frente de Libertação de Vintãli | To | Debating the ARM -= The L'olam Question =- |
| Message | "This issue has a lot to do with me, and a lot to do with Gaduridos. A sizable minority of L'olamians are from Gaduridos. Gaduridos has interests in L'olam, and we need to protect our interests." - Reynaldo Guerra, Gaduridos Commissar for Foreign Affairs |
| Date | 03:55:10, May 07, 2008 CET | From | Am Echad, Pays Libre | To | Debating the ARM -= The L'olam Question =- |
| Message | And they probably left that place for a reason. <mumbled under breath> -David Ben-Rishon |
| Date | 04:14:37, May 07, 2008 CET | From | Frente de Libertação de Vintãli | To | Debating the ARM -= The L'olam Question =- |
| Message | Why not hold a referendum among the people of L'olam on the question of whether it should be a part of Beiteynu? If a majority votes that they should, Beiteynu could take L'olam, or if a majority votes that they should be independent, they become independent. |
| Date | 12:29:45, May 07, 2008 CET | From | Am Echad, Pays Libre | To | Debating the ARM -= The L'olam Question =- |
| Message | Howabout, we take care of it and you get out of the knesset building ASAP. |
| Date | 13:54:15, May 07, 2008 CET | From |  Ma'avak | To | Debating the ARM -= The L'olam Question =- |
| Message | *Cheers from Ma'avak delegates* |
| Date | 15:18:28, May 07, 2008 CET | From | HaLeumit Tikvah | To | Debating the ARM -= The L'olam Question =- |
| Message | OOC: How do you propose we do a referendum? We arranged to do a referendum for a seperate issue before, and it just ended up with no-one having any plan on how to carry it out. "The other Gaduridos deputies have made it clear they do not want to get involved in L'olam. However, if you are very concerned about Gaudi citizens in L'olam, we can attempt to persuade the L'olam representatives to include a new clause in the treaty requiring the deportation of all Gaduridos citizens are sent home." -Rosh HaMemshala Giora Metzger |
| Date | 20:57:01, May 07, 2008 CET | From | Archon Revolutionary Militia | To | Debating the ARM -= The L'olam Question =- |
| Message | "Perhaps the VCJ should review both the bill, and the discussion around it. And then the VCJ should review the Agorist Secession carefully. The VCJ will soon realize that L'olam is still independent, as per this agreement. The VCJ will also realize that L'olam is not put under any form of military rule. If the VCJ were to inspect the issue, the VCJ would realize very quickly that this bill just passed does not give Beiteynu any additional powers over L'olam, as nothing in the terms is against any traits inherent to an anarcho-capitalist society. An anarcho-capitalist society, having no government, cannot force any military out unless they threaten the people or their property therein. If they are just peacefully there to capture fugitives from Beiteynu, their fugitive status will be confirmed by police corporations in L'olam, and then handed over if such a person is indeed a fugitive. In fact, the *ONLY* thing L'olam actually sacrifices that it had before is the borders have been shrunken, but only slightly. But L'olam is not an agricultural community anyway, and high population density is no problem. While we enjoy the VCJ's enthusiastic support for the people of L'olam, the VCJ really needs to investigate the issues fully before making judgements." -Judy Gottlos, Head Archon of the ARM [OOC] You can't carry out a referendum. Neither L'olam, nor the concepts of an anarcho-capitalist society, are programmed into the game, so to the server, the people of L'olam technically don't exist, and L'olam is RP. As such, it is an RP object that I created, and of course, me simply spitting out my personally biased results of a referendum wouldn't exactly be fair, now would it? |
| Date | 00:34:44, May 08, 2008 CET | From | Frente de Libertação de Vintãli | To | Debating the ARM -= The L'olam Question =- |
| Message | OOC: I know. Probably what would happen would be that one side would declare that they won, and the other side would declare that there was election fraud, then there would be war. |
| Date | 19:17:21, May 08, 2008 CET | From | Archon Revolutionary Militia | To | Debating the ARM -= The L'olam Question =- |
| Message | [OOC] ...I don't follow you in this context... |
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Voting
| Vote | Seats | ||||||
| yes |
Total Seats: 400 | ||||||
| no | Total Seats: 0 | ||||||
| abstain |
Total Seats: 0 |
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