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Bill: DSPB.0271.2892 OOC: 2890 Census
Details
Submitted by[?]: BDSP un Beys fun Yisserles-Binyomen
Status[?]: passed
Votes: This bill is a resolution. It requires more yes votes than no votes. This bill will not pass any sooner than the deadline.
Voting deadline: September 2893
Description[?]:
| Power to the people. http://classic.particracy.net/viewbill.php?billid=267997 http://classic.particracy.net/viewbill.php?billid=259204 http://classic.particracy.net/viewbill.php?billid=257976 http://classic.particracy.net/viewbill.php?billid=252219 http://classic.particracy.net/viewbill.php?billid=250424 http://classic.particracy.net/viewbill.php?billid=241384 http://classic.particracy.net/viewbill.php?billid=236640 --Religious Census-- * 66% Jewish ** 50% Orthodox ** 23% Conservative ** 10% Traditional Terran ** 17% Messianic Terran * 20% Christian ** 28% Ebionite Church ** 27% Terran Lutheran ** 19% Terran Catholic Church (All Rites) ** 18% Terran Orthodox Church ** 4% Orthodox Catholic Church ** 3% Pontesian (Anglican/Episcopal) ** 1% Eastern Rite Catholic Church * 8% Muslim ** 48% Sunni ** 44% Asli ** 8% Shi`a * 5% Schultzist Church of Beiteynu - Official * 1% Other --Ethnic Census-- 84% Jewish (Any Jewish Ancestry) 6% Dundorfic Only 8% Jelbic/Pontic Only 2% Other Only --Language Census-- -Jewish 87% Hebrew 90% Yiddish -Jelbic/Pontic 50% Pntek 20% Brmek -Other 30% Duntrekaans - Pontesian and Barmenian Dialects 35% Luthori 30% Majatran 75% French 7% Kalopian Only certain languages were counted in the Language Census, other languages may be counted if found to be prominent. Any questions? |
Proposals
Debate
These messages have been posted to debate on this bill:
| Date | 20:08:32, February 10, 2010 CET | From | BDSP un Beys fun Yisserles-Binyomen | To | Debating the DSPB.0271.2892 OOC: 2890 Census |
| Message | What do people think? |
| Date | 23:08:47, February 11, 2010 CET | From | Bismarckian National Resistance (BNR) | To | Debating the DSPB.0271.2892 OOC: 2890 Census |
| Message | Seems fine to me. |
| Date | 01:24:02, February 12, 2010 CET | From | Am Echad, Pays Libre | To | Debating the DSPB.0271.2892 OOC: 2890 Census |
| Message | I believe Luthori is English |
| Date | 17:58:44, February 12, 2010 CET | From | BDSP un Beys fun Yisserles-Binyomen | To | Debating the DSPB.0271.2892 OOC: 2890 Census |
| Message | I'm not sure about Luthori being English, but I have called it Terran in the past. |
| Date | 23:37:21, February 12, 2010 CET | From | Parti Imperial du Peuple (IA) | To | Debating the DSPB.0271.2892 OOC: 2890 Census |
| Message | Luthori is Imperial English, which due to it being the "super power" of the past its language could be called Terran. However I would either stick with English or Luthorian. |
| Date | 23:59:07, February 12, 2010 CET | From | BDSP un Beys fun Yisserles-Binyomen | To | Debating the DSPB.0271.2892 OOC: 2890 Census |
| Message | I prefer to call it Terran. |
| Date | 13:34:14, February 13, 2010 CET | From | HaLeumit Tikvah | To | Debating the DSPB.0271.2892 OOC: 2890 Census |
| Message | Im concerned by the rise of dundorfic people (I remember there was a party briefly representing them, but that was a long time ago), the large decrease in Pntek pop0ulation (historically they've been the second largest eethnic group, why's that changed?), the fact that there are more more Yiddish than Hebrew speakers (again history- it's been tha national language for most of the countrys existence), The large number of Asli people (they're literally thousands of miles from Beiteynu, so I'd need a convincing reason for them to exist in large numbers here; and in any case, Asli is an ethnic group, not a branch of Islam), people speaking Kalopian, and the general idea that by these numbers most of our population must be tri-lingual. I also don't know what traditional Terran and Messianic Terran Judaism are, and also don't think the numbers for religious and language groups match up to the ethnic groups that traditionally have practiced them. In shot, there's nothing wrong with change but it requires reasonable and agreed upon explainations, which is basically what I'm requesting before I vote for anything. Also, apologies for not laying out my objections until after this had been put to vote, I had intended to do it sooner but never got round to it. |
| Date | 20:58:51, February 13, 2010 CET | From | BDSP un Beys fun Yisserles-Binyomen | To | Debating the DSPB.0271.2892 OOC: 2890 Census |
| Message | I think you are ignoring the ethnic census, maybe? The Kingdom of Yishelem invited Luthorian people who are Dundorfic to move to the Commonwealth.The Pntek have mostly intermarried with Jews. Yiddish rose during the Kingdom of Yishelem due to the oppression of Jews, the rise of Dundorfics, and a cultural revolution spurred by the Haredim. You are actually looking at a large number of Asli Muslims, Beiteynuese Muslims have come to feel that the Aslis have a purer and more naturalistic Islam. The Aslis have their own form of Islam which developed over centuries of a lack of contact with Terra's other Muslims and an abundance of contact with the Tribal peoples of Greater Lourenne. The people speaking Kalopia learned it out of a short lived fad inspired by Prince Yahya I. Yes, the people are well educated in linguistics, isn't it wonderful? Terran Jews are those Jews who are lead by the Terran Pope, though as of recently, their numbers may be extinct, we should run a new census. The Ethnic census requires all those of any Jewish blood, even the most minuscule drop, to record themselves as Jewish. The Language Census can be explained by people learning whatever language they want to that someone will teach them. I understand and I hope that this can be worked out. That's okay. I'm sorry for not waiting. |
| Date | 21:34:34, February 13, 2010 CET | From | Am Echad, Pays Libre | To | Debating the DSPB.0271.2892 OOC: 2890 Census |
| Message | Why would Jews fallow the Terran Pope? I was the one that founded Messianic Judaism and I have no intention of it following any popes. Also, why are none of these reported in the Newspapers or presented to us before you make the census? Also, Dundorfs in Luthori are probably not going to bring their language with them here, since I would assume alot of them are 2nd and 3rd generation Dundorfs, and not people born there. |
| Date | 22:16:45, February 13, 2010 CET | From | BDSP un Beys fun Yisserles-Binyomen | To | Debating the DSPB.0271.2892 OOC: 2890 Census |
| Message | It was fashionable because of King Consort Yakov's Deltarian ancestry. They have ceased now that half of the TCC is Anti-Semitic. I don't know? I think the Luthors are Dundorfic. In Real Life, Englanders and Scandinavians may not be Germans, though they are Germanic. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_peoples) Also, there are Duntrekkers in Pontesi. (http://particracy.wikia.com/wiki/Duntrekkers) |
| Date | 22:51:45, February 13, 2010 CET | From | HaLeumit Tikvah | To | Debating the DSPB.0271.2892 OOC: 2890 Census |
| Message | "I think you are ignoring the ethnic census, maybe?" In what sense? I referenced several objections to it. "The Kingdom of Yishelem invited Luthorian people who are Dundorfic to move to the Commonwealth." Luthorians, as far as I'm aware, don't consider themselves Dundorfic. I'd agree that 8% Luthorian would be a reasonable number though. "The Pntek have mostly intermarried with Jews." Centuries of conflict and dispute with Pontesi, and the general and continued animosity between both the two nations and the Jews and Pntek, would give good reason for this not to have happened. From a RP sense, removing one of Beiteynus most prominent conflicts is just wrong. I don't care what the census says, I'm not regarding any ethnic group voluntarily giving up their heritage unnoticed as valid. "Yiddish rose during the Kingdom of Yishelem due to the oppression of Jews, the rise of Dundorfics, and a cultural revolution spurred by the Haredim." Why would one of the more orthodox sections of Judaism adopt a new language over the one they have used in religious tradition for centuries? When was this cultural revolution? And why did it lead to a rise in Yiddish? As far as I remember you and I worked out Yiddish as a language known by a very, very small minority in Barmenistan, spoken by those Jews who were of duntrekkan descent; I really don't see how it went from that to a dominant language here. "You are actually looking at a large number of Asli Muslims, Beiteynuese Muslims have come to feel that the Aslis have a purer and more naturalistic Islam. The Aslis have their own form of Islam which developed over centuries of a lack of contact with Terra's other Muslims and an abundance of contact with the Tribal peoples of Greater Lourenne." Their apparent continued support for the Caliph would suggest this form is very similar to Sunni Islam, no? "The people speaking Kalopia learned it out of a short lived fad inspired by Prince Yahya I." Has it ever in real life happened that the decision of a major figure to learn a new langauge caused around a tenth of the country to learn the same language? If it has I'll consider this point further. "Yes, the people are well educated in linguistics, isn't it wonderful?" I actually did the maths this time- on average, people in Beiteynu would speak over 4 languages. Again, in real life, are there any countries where the majority of people know four or five languages? If there aren't then this isn't a very realistic idea. "Terran Jews are those Jews who are lead by the Terran Pope,..." They aren't Jews then, they're Catholics. "The Ethnic census requires all those of any Jewish blood, even the most minuscule drop, to record themselves as Jewish." Do you know that everyone of European descent is related to Charlemagne, as well as half is army? It's the nature of ancestors, by the time you go back enough generations you're related to most of the Worlds living population. If we do it by are you even a little bit Jewish, then everyone in Beiteynu would be Jewish. Apart from that, that kind of criteria should be included in the description of the census. |
| Date | 08:53:12, February 15, 2010 CET | From | BDSP un Beys fun Yisserles-Binyomen | To | Debating the DSPB.0271.2892 OOC: 2890 Census |
| Message | "I think you are ignoring the ethnic census, maybe?" In what sense? I referenced several objections to it. "The Kingdom of Yishelem invited Luthorian people who are Dundorfic to move to the Commonwealth." Luthorians, as far as I'm aware, don't consider themselves Dundorfic. I'd agree that 8% Luthorian would be a reasonable number though. "The Pntek have mostly intermarried with Jews." Centuries of conflict and dispute with Pontesi, and the general and continued animosity between both the two nations and the Jews and Pntek, would give good reason for this not to have happened. From a RP sense, removing one of Beiteynus most prominent conflicts is just wrong. I don't care what the census says, I'm not regarding any ethnic group voluntarily giving up their heritage unnoticed as valid. "Yiddish rose during the Kingdom of Yishelem due to the oppression of Jews, the rise of Dundorfics, and a cultural revolution spurred by the Haredim." Why would one of the more orthodox sections of Judaism adopt a new language over the one they have used in religious tradition for centuries? When was this cultural revolution? And why did it lead to a rise in Yiddish? As far as I remember you and I worked out Yiddish as a language known by a very, very small minority in Barmenistan, spoken by those Jews who were of duntrekkan descent; I really don't see how it went from that to a dominant language here. "Their apparent continued support for the Caliph would suggest this form is very similar to Sunni Islam, no?" They believe that the prime candidate for the Caliphate would be a descendant of David, Solomon, and Mohammed as well as being a great judge of Islamic Law. So yes they do partially resemble Sunni Muslims while also resembling Shia Muslims. They also have members who are rather similar to Sufim. "Has it ever in real life happened that the decision of a major figure to learn a new langauge caused around a tenth of the country to learn the same language? If it has I'll consider this point further." It hasn't happened in real life and it won't happen again. "I actually did the maths this time- on average, people in Beiteynu would speak over 4 languages. Again, in real life, are there any countries where the majority of people know four or five languages? If there aren't then this isn't a very realistic idea." That is a good point and the number will decrease over time, trust me. "They aren't Jews then, they're Catholics." They are Catholic Jews. "The Ethnic census requires all those of any Jewish blood, even the most minuscule drop, to record themselves as Jewish." Do you know that everyone of European descent is related to Charlemagne, as well as half is army? It's the nature of ancestors, by the time you go back enough generations you're related to most of the Worlds living population. If we do it by are you even a little bit Jewish, then everyone in Beiteynu would be Jewish. Apart from that, that kind of criteria should be included in the description of the census. |
| Date | 09:08:07, February 15, 2010 CET | From | BDSP un Beys fun Yisserles-Binyomen | To | Debating the DSPB.0271.2892 OOC: 2890 Census |
| Message | Pushed the button too soon. "In what sense? I referenced several objections to it." You also related other censuses to the ethnic census. "Luthorians, as far as I'm aware, don't consider themselves Dundorfic. I'd agree that 8% Luthorian would be a reasonable number though." I consider them Dundorfic, even if they don't. "Centuries of conflict and dispute with Pontesi, and the general and continued animosity between both the two nations and the Jews and Pntek, would give good reason for this not to have happened. From a RP sense, removing one of Beiteynus most prominent conflicts is just wrong. I don't care what the census says, I'm not regarding any ethnic group voluntarily giving up their heritage unnoticed as valid." In recent decades the Beitek and Pntek have grown closer than ever and have mostly overcome the animosity. Pontesi has gained symbolic power over Tadraki and have decided that Endild may not be worth fighting a war over. Peace and Love have come floating into Beitek-Pntek Relations. "Why would one of the more orthodox sections of Judaism adopt a new language over the one they have used in religious tradition for centuries? When was this cultural revolution? And why did it lead to a rise in Yiddish? As far as I remember you and I worked out Yiddish as a language known by a very, very small minority in Barmenistan, spoken by those Jews who were of duntrekkan descent; I really don't see how it went from that to a dominant language here." The Haredim decided that Hebrew should be saved for Holy usage. It occurred with an infusion of Luthorian culture and with the Barmenian Caliph being Duke of Padrilka. Padrilka is after all a center of knowledge and education in Beiteynu. "Do you know that everyone of European descent is related to Charlemagne, as well as half is army? It's the nature of ancestors, by the time you go back enough generations you're related to most of the Worlds living population. If we do it by are you even a little bit Jewish, then everyone in Beiteynu would be Jewish. Apart from that, that kind of criteria should be included in the description of the census." I was unaware of that Charlemagne and his army trivia. It implies that if someone has any distinctly Jewish genetics, which would be known from when the state has recorded DNA in the past, they are considered Jewish. It does say in the description, "Any Jewish Ancestry." |
| Date | 17:49:21, February 15, 2010 CET | From | HaLeumit Tikvah | To | Debating the DSPB.0271.2892 OOC: 2890 Census |
| Message | "You also related other censuses to the ethnic census." Correct, but I don't understand your point. "I consider them Dundorfic, even if they don't." As far as I'm aware you're the only one who does so. I think Luthorian is a better term and would avoid confusion, but the numbers seem appropriate. "In recent decades the Beitek and Pntek have grown closer than ever and have mostly overcome the animosity. Pontesi has gained symbolic power over Tadraki and have decided that Endild may not be worth fighting a war over. Peace and Love have come floating into Beitek-Pntek Relations." While I feel your foreign policy assesment might need to be run past Pontesi, I have no problem with a contemporary harmony existing between the two groups. What I have a problem with is the Pntek numbers being halved. "The Haredim decided that Hebrew should be saved for Holy usage. It occurred with an infusion of Luthorian culture and with the Barmenian Caliph being Duke of Padrilka. Padrilka is after all a center of knowledge and education in Beiteynu." My knowledge of Haredi Judaism probably isn't what it should be, however traditionalists sects usually don't just decide to change language unanimously; even if we take it as writ that they did make such a decision (though I don't see why either of the factors you list would cause this), such a move would lead to mass splintering of the Haredi. And even if we leave those objections, how would one sect of Judaisms decision to change language lead to the nations most spoken language, used by the nations most dominant religion and used near continuously as the langauge of government since the nations inception, become less well known than Yiddish? I don't believe this adds up. "They believe that the prime candidate for the Caliphate would be a descendant of David, Solomon, and Mohammed as well as being a great judge of Islamic Law. So yes they do partially resemble Sunni Muslims while also resembling Shia Muslims. They also have members who are rather similar to Sufim." Fair enough. "I was unaware of that Charlemagne and his army trivia. It implies that if someone has any distinctly Jewish genetics, which would be known from when the state has recorded DNA in the past, they are considered Jewish. It does say in the description, "Any Jewish Ancestry."" I missed the any Jewish ancestry bit; my bad there. It might be trivia, however it is not trivial. The point I was trying to make is that every single person of European descent alive today is related to virtually every single person in Europe 1200 years ago. That's something that as been shown mathematically. Now, considering in this game DNA databases have existed 700-odd years, the likelihood of finding someone in any persons ancestry who was Jewish is virtually a certainty. I mean, if we assume that in 700 years there has been 28 generations, which seems reasonably, then everyone would have a collective total of 568 million ancestors in that time. For one of them to be Jewish and appear on a database at some point would be very, very likely. Counting anyone with any ancestry as Jewish seems to me not to work. |
| Date | 23:25:38, February 15, 2010 CET | From | BDSP un Beys fun Yisserles-Binyomen | To | Debating the DSPB.0271.2892 OOC: 2890 Census |
| Message | "Correct, but I don't understand your point." I don't have a point. "As far as I'm aware you're the only one who does so. I think Luthorian is a better term and would avoid confusion, but the numbers seem appropriate." Can we call the Dundorfic numbers, Artanian and Artanian Colonial? We want to include all Artanian people and their Colonial nationals. "While I feel your foreign policy assesment might need to be run past Pontesi, I have no problem with a contemporary harmony existing between the two groups. What I have a problem with is the Pntek numbers being halved." I have been in private talks with them about improving relations between our nations and about the status of Gran Tadraki. Maybe some were missed in this census, a war-torn country isn't going to get to everyone? "My knowledge of Haredi Judaism probably isn't what it should be, however traditionalists sects usually don't just decide to change language unanimously; even if we take it as writ that they did make such a decision (though I don't see why either of the factors you list would cause this), such a move would lead to mass splintering of the Haredi. And even if we leave those objections, how would one sect of Judaisms decision to change language lead to the nations most spoken language, used by the nations most dominant religion and used near continuously as the langauge of government since the nations inception, become less well known than Yiddish? I don't believe this adds up." The Kingdom of Yishelem may have favored it over Hebrew for schooling because Yiddish was less religious? Maybe the Haredim were told to learn Yiddish by a prophet? Maybe people were radicalized by the Yishalemites? I really don't know. Let's just go with it. "I missed the any Jewish ancestry bit; my bad there. It might be trivia, however it is not trivial. The point I was trying to make is that every single person of European descent alive today is related to virtually every single person in Europe 1200 years ago. That's something that as been shown mathematically. Now, considering in this game DNA databases have existed 700-odd years, the likelihood of finding someone in any persons ancestry who was Jewish is virtually a certainty. I mean, if we assume that in 700 years there has been 28 generations, which seems reasonably, then everyone would have a collective total of 568 million ancestors in that time. For one of them to be Jewish and appear on a database at some point would be very, very likely. Counting anyone with any ancestry as Jewish seems to me not to work." That's okay. Maybe we should require a certain amount of Jewish blood? You are right about that, though. |
| Date | 20:27:14, February 16, 2010 CET | From | Am Echad, Pays Libre | To | Debating the DSPB.0271.2892 OOC: 2890 Census |
| Message | I feel that we should have an editied version of this, and have this census repealed. |
| Date | 23:27:27, February 16, 2010 CET | From | BDSP un Beys fun Yisserles-Binyomen | To | Debating the DSPB.0271.2892 OOC: 2890 Census |
| Message | We can simply say that there was a miscount due to recent war. |
| Date | 04:08:50, February 17, 2010 CET | From | Am Echad, Pays Libre | To | Debating the DSPB.0271.2892 OOC: 2890 Census |
| Message | No, I think we need to change the names and stuff to make it official. |
| Date | 04:52:30, February 20, 2010 CET | From | BDSP un Beys fun Yisserles-Binyomen | To | Debating the DSPB.0271.2892 OOC: 2890 Census |
| Message | Post-war mishaps. |
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Voting
| Vote | Seats | |||
| yes |
Total Seats: 329 | |||
| no |
Total Seats: 171 | |||
| abstain | Total Seats: 0 |
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