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Bill: Cultural Correction Bill

Details

Submitted by[?]: Aliança Real de Tukarali 👑

Status[?]: defeated

Votes: This bill asks for an amendement to the Constitution. It will require two-thirds of the legislature to vote in favor. This bill will not pass any sooner than the deadline.

Voting deadline: February 3757

Description[?]:

As I have previously emphasized, the culture of Tukarali is not Portuguese. The extended usage of the Portuguese language and obviously led to a perception that Tukarali is some kind of nation based on Portugal, despite that being false.

The recognized culture of Tukarali, as per cultural protocols, is a culture that is somewhat akin to Singapore, Indonesia, and Malaysia. Additionally there is a significant Chinese and Mongolian influence, along with some Japanese communities. Then, at the western coast, there is a small Muslim minority. And throughout the nation there is a white minority, composing about 8-9% of the population at last protocol update (and it is these people who would most logically speak Portuguese in Tukarali).

Overall, the simple adjective I give the Tukarese culture is "Asian Brazil."

And for in-game clarifications:
Tukarese language = Bahasa Indonesia
Panmuan (language of the Mu-Tze) = Mongolian and some Chinese
Indralan = Chinese
Kanzo = native religion of Tukarali (70%+ of population) and has no real-life equivalent
Queranzariah = Islam
Yazdean (religion of our southern neighbor, Aldegar) = Zoroastrianism
Aldegar = is inspired by the Zoroastrians of Iran and of the Persian Empire
Gaduridos (our eastern neighbor) = has Spanish influences along with a significant "Asian" minority, composed of Tukarese and Indralans, mostly living in the two regions that border us
Valruzia = (northwestern neighbor) = speaks Polish and pretty much based on Poland, however it is ethnically composed by 3 or 4 groups
Baltusia = (northeastern neighbor) = Latin American with a Maori-like minority; also has a Tukarese minority.

Now, what I am proposing in this bill is a cultural correction, in line with the moderation-recognized cultural protocols for this nation. In other words, ending this extensive use of Portuguese and restoring the proper Tukarese identity. This is an identity not only recognized by moderation, by numerous other players. And when looking at the protocols of Gaduridos and Baltusia, which have Tukarese minorities, they acknowledge Tukarese as being Asian.

This cultural correction does NOT mean a requirement of dismantling the Democratic Republic of Tukarali, which I know the TDU is opposed. What is does mean is an establishment of official titles in the language of the recognized culture and a usage of more culturally appropriate character names (rather than a majority Portuguese names, names should reflect Chinese, Mongolian, and Southeastern Asian names; and of course with some names mixed [like Chinese/Portuguese] and such).

The passage of this bill would rename Tukarali from República Democrática de Tukarali
to
Republik Demokratik Tukarali 湿國民主共和国

Proposals

Debate

These messages have been posted to debate on this bill:

Date07:28:21, January 11, 2014 CET
FromUniao Socialista
ToDebating the Cultural Correction Bill
MessageWhile I support your argument,I can't really agree with the stubborn effort to make Tukarali a 90% Asian based country.That is what you are proposing,There is Indrala and other countries completely Asian.If we make it a 50-50 percentage of Latin and Asian fine.
Furthermore we could "invent" a language consisting of Portuguese and Asian.

Date08:09:29, January 11, 2014 CET
FromAliança Real de Tukarali 👑
ToDebating the Cultural Correction Bill
MessageThis effort to make Tukarali Asian is based upon the fact that Tukarali IS Asian. An Asian culture was established in Tukarali about 900 years ago.

And there are many more Latin nations than Asian. In fact, there are only 2 truly Asian nations (Indrala and Sekowo), and that's it. And for a while that number was 3, before Tukarali dropped usage of its real identity.

Its also best, in my own opinion, to use a language that is based wholly upon a real-life language. While inventing languages is most unique, it can be complicated, and in the long-term it can be problematic since its harder for new players to adopt and understand.

Date09:30:47, January 11, 2014 CET
FromUniao Socialista
ToDebating the Cultural Correction Bill
MessageAbout religion I don't really care,as far as I'm concerned Tukarali can worship trees or GRRM's Drowned God.
But how are you going to justify RP-wise the many portuguese party names and language sooo many ingame years now?
I'm trying to make a compromise here,if you don't want to it's fine.As far as I know Cultural Protocols and other stuff like this needs 2/3 of the players and not parties according to the new rules.If you don't like that compromise I don't see how you can obtain the approval.Also does the word "Tukarali" sound Asian?
No,nowhere near that.It sounds like a small backwards Latin American country.

Finally,don't get me wrong.I respect players trying to make Cultural Protocols instead of just play as a generic english speaking nation/party.I am with you in this.The reason I left Tukarali was other players' stubborness to make some radical changes in Tukarali.I proposed laws and changes to make it a little more fun but some player acted like it was a real nation.Look at the parties here,recently we got 2 inactive (both center-right) and one semi-inactive who has like 5 days to log in.The reason behind this is stubborn conservatism.Trying to "preserve" "democracy" got so much un-fun that nobody really cares about Tukarali anymore except you,myself and UDT,DWP.Making it a clone of Sekowo-Indrala will definitely not solve things.It will not make it unique.
2 or 3 cultures with none as a dominant would make it unique.


Sorry for the really long post,it wasn't done on purpose.

Date10:04:04, January 11, 2014 CET
FromUnião Democrática do Tukarali
ToDebating the Cultural Correction Bill
MessageOOC: There are a number of fallaciesin the PAK's arguments, in this thread and elsewhere:

1. There are no valid cultural protocols for Tukarali. In the forum, our nation is not listed as "culturally protected", and no cultural protocols can be accessed. (http://forum.particracy.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=4374). That list at the beginning of the thread has not been updated for a while, but I can assure you that no cultural protocols have been passed since last August.
There remains the question, whether "culturally active" means "culturally active as an 'Asian' nation". Given the fact, that Tukarali has been using predominantly Portuguese names for 200 game years for all its institutions and most people, that seems to be an indication that "Asian" cultural activity has been sparse, to say the least, for a long time. The "cultural information" created and provided by Aynako does not make up proper and valid cultural protocols just because their creator declares them to be. To say the least, the information is badly out of date at this point.

2. As for the PAK's repeated assertation that there is little to no validity or legitimacy in using Latin (Portuguese/Spanish) names, I would like to remind Aynako that there own party used to have "Latin" names at certain points in history, for example in the 3354 elections, when their Main name was the "Sociedade dos Patriotas" (http://classic.particracy.net/viewnews.php?newsid=348854 - the Cabinet formed after that election also included a number of politicians with 'Latin' names), or for example, the 2963 election, when it was the " Coalizão de Avanço Tukarês" (as it was in several other elections around that time). "Latin" (Portuguese/Spanish) influence has clearly existed in Tukarali for along time, and was more important than an alleged 8-9% share of population would have given justification. It has only intensified throughout the past 250 game years, and I can see no justification for eradicating that development by the stroke of a pen.

Don't misunderstand me. I am not opposed to giving the "Asian" roots of Tukararese more recognition than was the case in the past 200 to 250 years, but I maintain that "Portuguese" influence has been historically stronger than Aynako now acknowledges to have been, and that its influence has increased over the past few game centuries. A more "Asian" direction is possible, but as a gradual development from the situation as it is now, not by suddenly declaring Tukarali as predominantly "Asian" when it clearly hasn't been for a long time, and probably has never been to the extent that Aynako now claims.

Date19:41:54, January 11, 2014 CET
From姬恩黨 (Jien Faction) 🌄
ToDebating the Cultural Correction Bill
MessageOOC: As a former Moderator (Urien) and the first "Executor" of the Cultural Protocols, I believed Tukarali to be uniquely Asian, in the sense that it was a mix of East, Southeast, and Central Asian (Mongolian) cultures with a white, Europeanesque minority. So I can say for certain "Culturally Active" for Tukarali meant Asian, whether Amazeroth believes that now is up to him, but the original interpretation of Tukarali was Asian.

The whole Portuguese usage in names and titles is easy to fix. It is called a minority/apartheid regime by the Portuguese speaking minority. Of course, I doubt that many of you would want that because it goes against your own personal ideologies. Regardless, that would be a very easy and doable solution.

I also believe and Aynako, correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't Panmuan originally Portuguese, but in language only? Just because a people speak one language doesn't mean their culture is tied to the language. That is a massive generalization. Not to mention, throwing Indrala (China) and Sekowo (a version of Japan) into the mix saying that they are just Asian is very insulting. East Asian cultures are unique. Sure, they share some things, but overall they are different, with Tukarali being far different from all the "Asian" nations in Terra. Give it credit.

Date19:47:19, January 11, 2014 CET
FromAliança Real de Tukarali 👑
ToDebating the Cultural Correction Bill
MessageTo Gronaldista:
Explaining the usage of Portuguese actually isn't too hard, many nations encounter long periods where the national language isn't widely used (though usually its English that is used instead, not Portuguese). And actually, this is my own opinion, but I think Tukarali actually sounds like it could be a name for an Southeast Asian or Filipino nation. Also, this is not an attempt to make a clone of Indrala or Sekowo; Tukarali would be wholly unique as a nation inspired by Singapore/Indonesia, but with its own spin (like the religion and such).

To TDU:
1. That is the old topic. In the recognized topic, Tukarali was recognized as culturally active (http://forum.particracy.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=5240) by moderation. And note, "culturally active" requires cultural RP, and there has been no cultural RP for a Portuguese culture. There has only ever been cultural RP for an Asian nation. And I also note that two recognized cultural protocols (Baltusia and Gaduridos) acknowledge Tukarali as Asian.
And I again repeat, using the Portuguese language and names does not equate to cultural change. Many nations have long periods where English language and names are used, despite non-English culture.

2. Yes, I myself did use Portuguese on a few occasions, in part because of an uncertainty of how to approach the idea of a unitary language in Tukarali (considering the presence of many different cultures). Portuguese was a language I was considering, but it never became officially (as per protocols and such) established as the language, despite its usage. And I had reservations as well, fearing that usage of Portuguese would lead to wrong perceptions about Tukarese culture (which it indeed has); but by that time I had left due to be overtaken by the Alliance of Liberals and Progressives.

The original idea I entertained with Portuguese was purely a language usage; not a widespread name usage or a cultural usage. It would be a Portuguese-speaking Asian nation, kind of like Macao. But, especially when observing the Alliance of Liberals and Progressives, it was clear that Portuguese was causing misconceptions. And I saw it on the forum too, there were players thinking Tukarali had changed from Asian to Portuguese culture.

So even when considering the Portuguese language usage, even by me, there was never a Portuguese culture. And additionally, in the past 200 to 250 years there has been no cultural RP, therefore meaning that the recognized culture cannot just shift to being Portuguese-like. With an absence of cultural RP the legitimacy of the original culture stands, even if it has been so long.

Date19:50:07, January 11, 2014 CET
FromAliança Real de Tukarali 👑
ToDebating the Cultural Correction Bill
MessageTo Jien:
When I first learned of Panmuan I treated it as Chinese, and it later became Mongolian under another player (which makes more sense anyways).

Date07:02:03, January 12, 2014 CET
FromUniao Socialista
ToDebating the Cultural Correction Bill
MessageAynako as I messaged you,I completely agree with you,you can count on my vote.

Date11:02:56, January 12, 2014 CET
FromUnião Democrática do Tukarali
ToDebating the Cultural Correction Bill
MessageOOC:
So Tularali was once recognised as "culturally active" by moderation? That also means that it is not culturally protected (i.e no Cultural protocols exist).
As I have said elsewhere, I don't claim that we have a totally "Portuguese" culture here just because most people and all institutions have carried Portuguese names for the past 250 years. As I see it, those Portuguese names are simply manifestations of a shift towards more emphasis on "Portuguese" elements ( i.e. the language) of the existing culture. Portuguese had been used before, and for a time it was used more, possibly simply because it was fashionable (in game) to do so. It was simply a minor cultural progression, as it is allowed under the status of a "culturally active nation". Given that there has indeed been little RP to solidify that minor cultural progression, there is no reason to accord the Portuguese language cultural protection and preserve the status quo. There is room for a shift back towards more "Asian" languages, but not for pretending that the past 250 years simply didn't happen. I even see that using Portuguese as a language without a Portuguese culture may be the cause of misconceptionsn, and that is why I am not opposed to completely abandoning it in the long run. However, I'm against retconning Tukarese history to the extent that the this use of Portuguese has never happenend or completely insignificant, when it had been around for a long time and has been the predominantly used language for people and institutions for quite a long time. That is why I am advocationg a more gradual shift away from the Portuguese language than what is currently proposed.

And as for the idea that the use of Portuguese has been predominant due to a minority/apartheid regime of a Portuguese-language minority: such a situation is unlikely in a democracy with no significant restriction of the vote, such as Tukarali has been for the past 250 years. It would be a far more realistic and doable solution to regard it as having been the culturally fashionable language for that time, which has been adopted in the naming customs and use of language of the majority (which does not mean that the majority has adopted a completely "Portuguese" culture). It can fall out of fashion again, and the arrival of the PAK back on the scene can be regarded as such a circumstance, but it would be implausible that its use would suddenly cease altogether when it has been around for such a long time.

Yes, there has been little happening in terms of cultural RP for the past few centuries (as I've said elsewhere, I've seen little attraction in RPing with myself, which would have been necessary for long periods of that time), but the increased use of Portuguese has still happened (and it was not my party that started it, nor was mine the only party using Portuguese).. It is part of the current status from which further cultural development can start, but declaring it void and never having existed is not something I would be happy with. I don't see why it would be necessary to restart cultural development from where we once were supposed to be rather than from where we are now.

Date18:07:59, January 12, 2014 CET
From姬恩黨 (Jien Faction) 🌄
ToDebating the Cultural Correction Bill
MessageOOC: Yes, recognized as "culturally active", which is very similar to a cultural protocol, except that there is a bit more leeway in what can be done.


I figured that you would say as much. However, your solution is interesting and would be another realistic option. Although, I find it a bit unrealistic that an Asiatic people would choose Portuguese over the classical Gao-Showan language and script, since they are far more influenced by the East Asian culture, but I could see something to harken back to Ryan Malagar and show respect to him (assuming that he is European).

Regardless, I think that the "culturally active" status should be brought up with Amazeroth. That will allow you guys to come to a better solution that falls in line with the game rules.

Date18:30:11, January 12, 2014 CET
FromAliança Real de Tukarali 👑
ToDebating the Cultural Correction Bill
MessageOOC: Just to note, At Ryan Malagar's time Indonesian was used. He was not European.

Date19:24:59, January 12, 2014 CET
From姬恩黨 (Jien Faction) 🌄
ToDebating the Cultural Correction Bill
MessageOOC: Thanks for the update!

Date19:43:31, January 12, 2014 CET
FromUnião Democrática do Tukarali
ToDebating the Cultural Correction Bill
Message@Liu Che:

Correct, in the real world it would have been unlikely that Asiatic people would have chosen Portuguese over some other Asian language. However, in the Terran context, Portuguese was a pre-existing language in Tukarali which had been used at times before, and so it would have been possible for it to come into fashion for a while (and to fall back out of fashion as a further development).

@Aynako: And during Rui Malagar's brief interval Portuguese was used (among others), and has been increasingly used ever since. I didn't start its use, but to the best of my knowledge I had to assume that I was drawing on a pre-existing language when I adopted it. So whatever direction Tukarese culture takes from now on, it has happened and I'm opposed to erasing it from Tukaralis cultural history altogether.

Date19:52:26, January 12, 2014 CET
FromAliança Real de Tukarali 👑
ToDebating the Cultural Correction Bill
MessageTo UDT:
I've already explained in this chain of messages as to why I briefly used Portuguese during a few of the most recent times I'd been in Tukarali. I'm not repeating myself, so go back and read the explanation.
Also, Portuguese was not pre-existing in Tukarali. When I first arrived there was no "Tukarese language," only English was being used. So then I used Indonesian as the Tukarese language and went from there.
And regardless of language issues, the cultural info bill has always stated Tukarali as being Asian.

Date02:36:27, January 13, 2014 CET
FromAliança Real de Tukarali 👑
ToDebating the Cultural Correction Bill
MessageOOC:
I am going to be returning to my old nation, but I will move this to vote rather than delete this discussion. Feel free to vote as you see appropriate on this bill.

And as I leave, I say this; I strongly encourage the players of Tukarali to not forget the ethnic composition of this nation. While the language may be Portuguese, the people themselves are not white, Mediterranean, Iberian, or European. Language is not a determinant of ethnicity; just look at Macao (Portuguese-speaking Chinese). Even if you choose to use Portuguese names, whenever you do use images, I encourage predominant usage of images that reflect the Asiatic nature of the Tukarese.

A final note:
The List of Resolutions bill is up-to-date and I will try my best to keep it that way should any resolutions be passed.
I've modified the Information bill to more accurately reflect the language issue. I don't think anyone will argue with having Modern Tukarese be Portuguese and Old Tukarese being Indonesian. The Information bill will also include a link to my active party so that I can be contacted if changes are needed in the bill.

Date08:42:30, January 13, 2014 CET
FromUnião Democrática do Tukarali
ToDebating the Cultural Correction Bill
MessageOOC:
Yes, You've explained why you have used Portuguese, but the fact remains that you have used it. In that sense, it was a preexisting language. Not preexisting as in before you came here, but preexisting to the point of time when it became increasingly used. By using it, you made it part of Tukarese culture yourself.

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